From: Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy <vsementsov@virtuozzo.com>
To: John Snow <jsnow@redhat.com>,
"qemu-block@nongnu.org" <qemu-block@nongnu.org>,
Peter Krempa <pkrempa@redhat.com>
Cc: "kwolf@redhat.com" <kwolf@redhat.com>,
Denis Lunev <den@virtuozzo.com>,
"libvir-list@redhat.com" <libvir-list@redhat.com>,
"armbru@redhat.com" <armbru@redhat.com>,
"qemu-devel@nongnu.org" <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>,
"mreitz@redhat.com" <mreitz@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH 2/2] qapi: deprecate implicit filters
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 15:00:15 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <28206440-3929-7bb5-f4ea-ee14a9018eab@virtuozzo.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5b8dc9fa-6778-add9-01ae-7259d6bf633c@redhat.com>
28.08.2019 20:48, John Snow wrote:
> (Peter: search for "pkrempa" down below.)
>
> On 8/28/19 5:20 AM, Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy wrote:
>> 27.08.2019 23:12, John Snow wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/23/19 5:22 AM, Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy wrote:
>>>> 14.08.2019 13:07, Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy wrote:
>>>>> To get rid of implicit filters related workarounds in future let's
>>>>> deprecate them now.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, could we deprecate implicit filter without deprecation of unnecessity of
>>>> parameter? As actually, it's good when this parameter is not necessary, in most cases
>>>> user is not interested in node-name.
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unnecessity -- I am surprised to learn
>>> that this a real word in the language I speak. :)
>>>
>>> I assume you're referring to making the optional argument mandatory.
>>
>> exactly, it's my a bit "google-translate-driven" English)
>>
>
> It teaches me some fun words!
>
>>>
>>>> Obviously we can do the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1. In 4.2 we deprecate unnecessity, which implies deprecation of implicit filters
>>>> 2. After some releases in 4.x we can drop deprecated functionality, so we drop it together with
>>>> implicit filters. And, in same release 4.x we return it back (as it's compatible change :)
>>>> but without implicit filters (so, if filter-node-name not specified, we just create
>>>> explicit filter with autogenerated node-name)
>>>>
>>>> So, effectively we just drop "deprecation mark" together with implicit filters, which is nice
>>>> but actually confusing.
>>>>
>>>> Instead, we may do
>>>> 1. In 4.2 deprecate
>>>> 2. In 4.x drop optionality together with implicit filters
>>>> 3. In 4.y (y > x of course) return optionality back
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ah, I see what you're digging at here now...
>>>
>>>> It's a bit safer, but for users who miss releases [4.x, 4.y) it's no difference..
>>>>
>>>> Or we just write in spec, that implicit filters are deprecated? But we have nothing about implicit
>>>> filters in spec. More over, we directly write that we have filter, and if parameter is omitted
>>>> it's node-name is autogenerated. So actually, the fact the filter is hidden when filter-node-name is
>>>> unspecified is _undocumented_.
>>>>
>>>> So, finally, it looks like nothing to deprecated in specification, we can just drop implicit filters :)
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>
>>> What exactly _IS_ an implicit filter? How does it differ today from an
>>> explicit filter? I assumed the only difference was if it was named or
>>> not; but I think I must be mistaken now if you're proposing leaving the
>>> interface alone entirely.
>>>
>>> Are they instantiated differently?
>>>
>>
>> As I understand, the only difference is their BlockDriverState.impicit field, and several places in code
>> where we skip implicit filter when trying to find something in a chain starting from a device.
>>
>
> Oh, oh, yes. I see.
>
>> Hmm, OK, let's see:
>>
>> 1. the only implicit filters are commit_top and mirror_top if user don't specify filter-node-name.
>>
>> Where it make sense, i.e., where implicit field used?
>>
>
> `git grep -E '(->|\.)implicit'` is what I used to find usages.
>
>> 2. bdrv_query_info, bdrv_query_bds_stats, bdrv_block_device_info(only when called from bdrv_query_info), they'll
>> report filter as top node if we don't mark it implicit.
>>
>
> So that's a bit of a change, but only visually. The "reality" is still
> the same, we just report it more "accurately." libvirt MIGHT need a
> heads up here. I'm looping pkrempa back in for comment.
>
> <pkrempa>
> Would libvirt be negatively impacted by the revelation of formerly
> internal ("implicit") nodes created by mirror and commit via query block
> commands? At the moment, QEMU hides them from you if you do not name them.
> </pkrempa>
>
>> 3. bdrv_refresh_filename, bdrv_reopen_parse_backing, bdrv_drop_intermediate:
>> I think it's not a problem, just drop special case for implicit fitlers
>>
>
> I'm much less certain about what the impact of this would be and would
> need to audit it (and don't have the time to, personally.)
>
> Do you have a POC or RFC patch that demonstrates dropping these special
> cases? It might be nice to see as proof that it's safe to deprecate.
>
>> So, seems the only real change is query-block and query-blockstats output when mirror or commit is started
>> without specifying filter-node-name (filter would be on top)
>>
>> So, how should we deprecate this, or can we just change it?
>>
>
> I'm not sure if it's worth it yet, what does dropping the implicit field
> buy us? Conceptually I understand that it's simpler without the notion
> of implicit fields, but I imagine there's some cleanup in particular
> that motivated this.
Reviewing Max's "block: Deal with filters" series motivated me.
>
> I'd say to just change the behavior, we should:
>
> - Give a standard three-release warning that the behavior will change in
> an incompatible way
> - Demonstrate with an RFC patch that special cases around ->implicit in
> block.c can be removed and do not make the code more complex,
> - Get blessings from Peter Krempa.
>
> As always: Libvirt is not the end-all be-all of QEMU management, but if
> libvirt is capable of working around design changes then I believe any
> project out there today also could, so it's a good litmus test.
>
> --js
>
--
Best regards,
Vladimir
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-08-29 15:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 44+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-08-14 10:07 [Qemu-devel] [PATCH 0/2] Deprecate implicit filters Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-08-14 10:07 ` [Qemu-devel] [PATCH 1/2] qapi: deprecate drive-mirror and drive-backup Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-08-14 19:22 ` John Snow
2019-08-15 7:44 ` [Qemu-devel] [libvirt] " Peter Krempa
2019-08-15 21:24 ` John Snow
2019-08-14 10:07 ` [Qemu-devel] [PATCH 2/2] qapi: deprecate implicit filters Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-08-14 19:27 ` John Snow
2019-08-14 20:34 ` [Qemu-devel] [Qemu-block] " Maxim Levitsky
2019-08-15 10:49 ` [Qemu-devel] " Kevin Wolf
2019-08-15 11:45 ` [Qemu-devel] [libvirt] " Peter Krempa
2019-08-15 14:04 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-08-29 16:45 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2019-08-29 17:57 ` John Snow
2019-08-30 10:07 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2019-08-30 18:11 ` John Snow
2019-09-02 12:04 ` Kevin Wolf
2019-11-22 8:41 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-11-22 11:32 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2019-08-15 16:07 ` [Qemu-devel] " John Snow
2019-08-15 16:48 ` Kevin Wolf
2019-08-15 17:33 ` John Snow
2019-08-15 19:24 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-08-16 8:20 ` Kevin Wolf
2019-08-16 12:33 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-08-16 12:58 ` Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-08-15 14:16 ` [Qemu-devel] Exposing feature deprecation to machine clients (was: [PATCH 2/2] qapi: deprecate implicit filters) Markus Armbruster
2019-08-15 17:40 ` John Snow
2019-11-07 18:52 ` [Qemu-devel] Exposing feature deprecation to machine clients Philippe Mathieu-Daudé
2019-11-07 19:13 ` Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-11-08 6:41 ` Deprecating stuff for 4.2 (was: [Qemu-devel] Exposing feature deprecation to machine clients) Markus Armbruster
2019-11-08 9:36 ` Deprecating stuff for 4.2 Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-11-08 8:35 ` [Qemu-devel] Exposing feature deprecation to machine clients Max Reitz
2019-08-29 15:59 ` [Qemu-devel] [PATCH 2/2] qapi: deprecate implicit filters Christophe de Dinechin
2019-08-29 17:18 ` [Qemu-devel] [Qemu-block] " John Snow
2019-08-23 9:22 ` [Qemu-devel] " Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-08-27 20:12 ` John Snow
2019-08-28 9:20 ` Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-08-28 17:48 ` John Snow
2019-08-29 14:44 ` Peter Krempa
2019-08-29 15:17 ` Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-08-29 17:50 ` John Snow
2019-08-29 15:00 ` Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy [this message]
2019-08-29 15:16 ` Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
2019-09-02 12:14 ` Kevin Wolf
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