(no subject)

[Jessie Hernandez]

subscribe git

Re: your mail

[Simon Ruderich]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:50:01AM +0200, Jessie Hernandez wrote:
> subscribe git

You need to write to majordomo@vger.kernel.org (with subscribe
git in the body) to subscribe.

Regards
Simon
-- 
+ privacy is necessary
+ using gnupg http://gnupg.org
+ public key id: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9

AW: your mail

[Patrick Lehmann]

But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription?
Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed?
________________________________________
Von: git-owner@vger.kernel.org [git-owner@vger.kernel.org]" im Auftrag von "Simon Ruderich [simon@ruderich.org]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2017 14:48
Bis: Jessie Hernandez
Cc: git@vger.kernel.org
Betreff: Re: your mail

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:50:01AM +0200, Jessie Hernandez wrote:
> subscribe git

You need to write to majordomo@vger.kernel.org (with subscribe
git in the body) to subscribe.

Regards
Simon
--
+ privacy is necessary
+ using gnupg http://gnupg.org
+ public key id: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9

Re: your mail

[Simon Ruderich]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:35:33PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:
> But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription?
> Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed?

Everybody can send to this mailing list. This is by design so
contributors/bug reporters can send mails without having to
subscribe.

Regards
Simon
-- 
+ Privatsphäre ist notwendig
+ Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org
+ Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9

AW: your mail

[Patrick Lehmann]

The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.

a)
It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.
b)
It describes how to subscribe.

With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),
subscription is required for participation.

________________________________________
Von: Simon Ruderich [simon@ruderich.org]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2017 15:47
Bis: Patrick Lehmann
Cc: Jessie Hernandez; git@vger.kernel.org
Betreff: Re: your mail

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:35:33PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:
> But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription?
> Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed?

Everybody can send to this mailing list. This is by design so
contributors/bug reporters can send mails without having to
subscribe.

Regards
Simon
--
+ Privatsphäre ist notwendig
+ Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org
+ Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9

Re: your mail

[Simon Ruderich]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:
> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.
>
> a)
> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.
> b)
> It describes how to subscribe.

However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only
how to subscribe.

> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),
> subscription is required for participation.

That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to
prevent spams but not all do.

Somebody might want to update the documentation, but personally
I see no reason to change anything. If you want to send a patch
to improve it, that would be great of course.

Regards
Simon

PS: Please don't top-post on this mailing list.
-- 
+ Privatsphäre ist notwendig
+ Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org
+ Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9

Re: your mail

[Junio C Hamano]

Simon Ruderich <simon@ruderich.org> writes:

> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:
>> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.
>>
>> a)
>> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.
>> b)
>> It describes how to subscribe.
>
> However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only
> how to subscribe.

For that matter, we also say "everyone is welcome to post", which
makes it clear that no subscription is required.

But I view these merely being technically correct.  And making it
absolutely obvious does not cost too much.

>> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),
>> subscription is required for participation.
>
> That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to
> prevent spams but not all do.

Yes.  But not many people realize that the world they know is the
only world.  We are used to an open list and are shocked when we
encouter a closed one; let's not forget that shock.

How about doing it like this?

 README.md | 4 ++++
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)

diff --git a/README.md b/README.md
index f17af66a97..bbaf54bffb 100644
--- a/README.md
+++ b/README.md
@@ -31,6 +31,10 @@ The user discussion and development of Git take place on the Git
 mailing list -- everyone is welcome to post bug reports, feature
 requests, comments and patches to git@vger.kernel.org (read
 [Documentation/SubmittingPatches][] for instructions on patch submission).
+
+You can send messages without subscribing to the list, but it is 
+recommended to read what other people are saying on the list before
+you speak.
 To subscribe to the list, send an email with just "subscribe git" in
 the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are
 available at <https://public-inbox.org/git/>,

Re: your mail

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Thu, Jun 22 2017, Junio C. Hamano jotted:

> Simon Ruderich <simon@ruderich.org> writes:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:
>>> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.
>>>
>>> a)
>>> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.
>>> b)
>>> It describes how to subscribe.
>>
>> However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only
>> how to subscribe.
>
> For that matter, we also say "everyone is welcome to post", which
> makes it clear that no subscription is required.
>
> But I view these merely being technically correct.  And making it
> absolutely obvious does not cost too much.
>
>>> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),
>>> subscription is required for participation.
>>
>> That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to
>> prevent spams but not all do.
>
> Yes.  But not many people realize that the world they know is the
> only world.  We are used to an open list and are shocked when we
> encouter a closed one; let's not forget that shock.
>
> How about doing it like this?
>
>  README.md | 4 ++++
>  1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/README.md b/README.md
> index f17af66a97..bbaf54bffb 100644
> --- a/README.md
> +++ b/README.md
> @@ -31,6 +31,10 @@ The user discussion and development of Git take place on the Git
>  mailing list -- everyone is welcome to post bug reports, feature
>  requests, comments and patches to git@vger.kernel.org (read
>  [Documentation/SubmittingPatches][] for instructions on patch submission).
> +
> +You can send messages without subscribing to the list, but it is
> +recommended to read what other people are saying on the list before
> +you speak.
>  To subscribe to the list, send an email with just "subscribe git" in
>  the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are
>  available at <https://public-inbox.org/git/>,

It's unclear what that means. I *think* it means "consider taking a look
around the list before you post", but then it's probably better advice
to tell people to skim the archives first to get an idea of the traffic.

E.g. if I page through the first 2 pages of public-inbox.org I get
messages going back to the 19th, but if I were to subscribe to the list
I'd need to wait 4 days to get the same mail.

Which, in the context of what this follows (how to submit a bug,
questions etc.) isn't a good use of time for the person reading the
instructions.

Maybe something more like:

diff --git a/README.md b/README.md
index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644
--- a/README.md
+++ b/README.md
@@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are
 available at <https://public-inbox.org/git/>,
 <http://marc.info/?l=git> and other archival sites.

+You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and
+others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some
+forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be
+sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in
+the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.
+
 The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that
 list the current status of various development topics to the mailing
 list.  The discussion following them give a good reference for

Re: your mail

[Junio C Hamano]

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> writes:

> Maybe something more like:

Much better.

> diff --git a/README.md b/README.md
> index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644
> --- a/README.md
> +++ b/README.md
> @@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are
>  available at <https://public-inbox.org/git/>,
>  <http://marc.info/?l=git> and other archival sites.
>
> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and
> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some
> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be
> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in
> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.
> +
>  The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that
>  list the current status of various development topics to the mailing
>  list.  The discussion following them give a good reference for

Re: your mail

[Jeff King]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:58:08PM +0200, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

> Which, in the context of what this follows (how to submit a bug,
> questions etc.) isn't a good use of time for the person reading the
> instructions.
> 
> Maybe something more like:
> 
> diff --git a/README.md b/README.md
> index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644
> --- a/README.md
> +++ b/README.md
> @@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are
>  available at <https://public-inbox.org/git/>,
>  <http://marc.info/?l=git> and other archival sites.
> 
> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and
> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some
> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be
> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in
> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.
> +
>  The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that
>  list the current status of various development topics to the mailing
>  list.  The discussion following them give a good reference for

You perhaps already read it, but you may want to steal wording or
suggestions from the mailing list section at:

  https://git-scm.com/community

which is covering the same ideas (and vice versa, patches to that page
are welcome if the README says something better).

-Peff

Re: your mail

[Junio C Hamano]

Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:

>> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and
>> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some
>> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be
>> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in
>> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.
>> +
>>  The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that
>>  list the current status of various development topics to the mailing
>>  list.  The discussion following them give a good reference for
>
> You perhaps already read it, but you may want to steal wording or
> suggestions from the mailing list section at:
>
>   https://git-scm.com/community
>
> which is covering the same ideas (and vice versa, patches to that page
> are welcome if the README says something better).

OK, so... Ævar's version does not mention:

 - text/plain, which is a very good addition.

 - note about CC in a way as useful as the "community" page does,
   which may want to steal from the latter.

 - the archive, but it may not be needed in the context of this
   document.  "Read the archive to make sure you are not repeating
   somebody else said before speaking" is something we silently wish
   everybody to follow, but it is something we do not want to say
   out loud, especially to new people.

 - Windows, but I am not sure if it is necessary or even healthy.
   One thing I would rather not to see is the Windows mailing list
   becomes the first line triage place for any and all issues that
   were experienced by a user who happened to be using Windows, and
   majority of the issues turn out to be unspecific to Windows.  I'd
   suspect that all of us rather would want to see the referral go
   the other way around.

Otoh, "community" page does not encourage subscription as a way to
ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to
add.

A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the "community"
page:

    The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to
    subscribe.

Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for
public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related.

Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer
explanation taken from Ævar's version:

	... disable HTML in your outgoing messages.

	By subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not
	missing follow-up discussion and also learn from other
	development in the community.  The list archive can be found
	on public-inbox.

Re: your mail

[Jeff King]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:23:17PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:

> Otoh, "community" page does not encourage subscription as a way to
> ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to
> add.
> 
> A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the "community"
> page:
> 
>     The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to
>     subscribe.
> 
> Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for
> public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related.
> 
> Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer
> explanation taken from Ævar's version:
> 
> 	... disable HTML in your outgoing messages.
> 
> 	By subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not
> 	missing follow-up discussion and also learn from other
> 	development in the community.  The list archive can be found
> 	on public-inbox.

Yeah, I think that's a good suggestion. Do you want to phrase it in the
form of a patch? :)

-Peff

Re: your mail

[Junio C Hamano]

Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:

> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:23:17PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
>> Otoh, "community" page does not encourage subscription as a way to
>> ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to
>> add.
>> 
>> A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the "community"
>> page:
>> 
>>     The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to
>>     subscribe.
>> 
>> Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for
>> public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related.
>> 
>> Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer
>> explanation taken from Ævar's version:
>> 
>> 	... disable HTML in your outgoing messages.
>> 
>> 	By subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not
>> 	missing follow-up discussion and also learn from other
>> 	development in the community.  The list archive can be found
>> 	on public-inbox.
>
> Yeah, I think that's a good suggestion. Do you want to phrase it in the
> form of a patch? :)

OK. Letme try.

Re: your mail

[demerphq]

On 22 June 2017 at 23:58, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> wrote:

> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and
> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some
> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be

FWIW: "adviced" is misspelled, it should be "advised", and IMO, it
feels like poor style to begin a sentence with a contraction. Not
strictly wrong, but sufficiently informal that I think it is out of
place in docs like this. Better to just say "It is", or even just "You
are", especially as you use "you" later in the sentence.

I actually think simplifying that sentence considerably is preferable:

"To be sure you receive all follow-up mails you should subscribe to the list."

flows better and is more succinct than

"It's advised to subscribe to the list if you want to be sure you're
not missing follow-up discussion".

> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in
> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.

cheers,
yves

-- 
perl -Mre=debug -e "/just|another|perl|hacker/"