RE: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

RE: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Muhammad Sarwar]

You are right about Abatron, it is definitely a good tool to have.

I recently evaluated Agile Software for 8260.

Few thoughts:

Main advantage of Agile is that it integrates Abatron's commands and
GDB debugging services.=20

Some features I liked were=20

Nice GUI for all BDI and GDB features at one place=20
Ability to move registers, structs etc to same watch window(by click
and drag)=20 Tools to automate some processes like loading of register
init file, playing back command script=20
Ability to set PC, other registers etc=20
Ability to use the same software for debugging of user applications=20

However there are some problems:=20

Program crashes frequently, they are offering new version of SW which
is supposed to be more stable. Problems in setting break points.
Problem in getting stack info display. Bug in display of struct
info=20

I think overall it brings good value for boot and kernel debugging.
Regards,

Muhammad Sarwar
Mangrove Systems Inc.


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Rothweiler [mailto:Stevenr@raritan.com]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:59 AM
To: linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE


Hi,

My organization is moving to Linux on MPC8270 (HW
being designed right now) and I was wondering what
everyone thought of the AgileDB-LX debugger, when
used with the Abatron BDI 2000 ICE.

We have neither product in house right now, and we
are trying to decide whether to evaluate them for
the development of our product.

I've seen a lot of good remarks about the Abatron
BDI 2000 ICE (that you shouldn't leave home without
it), but not much about AgileDB.  The product data
sheet looks impressive.  Any strong opinions out
there?

Also, we have an opening for an embedded PPC/Linux
engineer.  Where is the best place to post the ad?

Thanks.
--
Steven Rothweiler               Raritan Computer Inc
Embedded Engineer               400 Cottontail Lane
mailto:stevenr@raritan.com      Somerset, NJ   08873
732-764-8886 x1256


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Wolfgang Denk]

In message <8529B5552D4EAA4DAEDF49650C64B2B437128C@TARPON.mangrovesystems.com> Muhammad Sarwar wrote:
>
> Main advantage of Agile is that it integrates Abatron's commands and
> GDB debugging services.

I have not used AgileDB yet. How does this integration work? I  mean,
how much more do you get than when using GDB's "monitor" command?

> Nice GUI for all BDI and GDB features at one place

You can use DDD and add some custom-defined buttons.

> Ability to move registers, structs etc to same watch window(by click
> and drag)  Tools to automate some processes like loading of register
> init file, playing back command script

I suspect this might be just using GDB features?

> Ability to set PC, other registers etc

Standard GDB features...

> Ability to use the same software for debugging of user applications

Standard GDB feature.

> However there are some problems:
>
> Program crashes frequently, they are offering new version of SW which
> is supposed to be more stable. Problems in setting break points.
> Problem in getting stack info display. Bug in display of struct
> info
>
> I think overall it brings good value for boot and kernel debugging.

I'm sorry, but from what you listed I don't see any advantages...

[But I have to admit that I've been using  GDB  and  CLI's  for  some
time...]

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

--
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd@denx.de
"The bad reputation UNIX has gotten is totally undeserved, laid on by
people who don't understand, who have not gotten in there  and  tried
anything."          -- Jim Joyce, owner of Jim Joyce's UNIX Bookstore

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Steven,

in message <159C486347C8D3119B1D005004A469400244BC6B@OLIVE> you wrote:
>
> >From the AgileDB product data sheet (I can send it to you if
> you'd like), it is clearly a GUI front end for GDB, or any

Thanks, I've read it.

> other debugger you want to use.  They allow you to issue any
> GDB (or any tool's) command-line command from a prompt, if
> that's what you're familiar with.  From their data sheet:

This is why I wonder what they provide which  is  not  available  for
example  in  DDD,  which is available for free and pre-installed with
all major Linux distributions.

> * The BDI 2000 ICE Command Set

available with DDD/GDB though GDB's "monitor" command

> * The GDB Command Set

available through GDB itself.

> * Target Serial I/O (over telnet)
> * Any Tool or Service that uses Telnet
> * Boot Agents Like: PPC/U-BOOT
> * User-Defined Tests and Target Services

Yeah, all available without AgileDB, too.

> Theoretically, you're supposed to have productivity gains
> by using their GUI (if you invest the time to learn it, just
> as you've invested time to learn a CLI) over the equivalent

You can use DDD if you want a GUI.

> debuggers suffer from.  In a particular debug session, you
> can put all of the things that are most important to you
> into a single window.  I have no idea if this enhances
> productivity, but I know that one of the reasons that I
> prefer CLIs is that I spend more time opening, closing,
> re-sizing, and just plain fiddling with the GUI windows.

As mentioned before, you will have to test yoursdelf if you like  the
tool,  or  not.  But do yourself a favour and test DDD, too. And then
compare the prices.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

--
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd@denx.de
"If you are afraid of loneliness, don't marry."             - Chekhov

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Wolfgang Denk]

In message <8529B5552D4EAA4DAEDF49650C64B2B436E4ED@TARPON.mangrovesystems.com> you wrote:
>
> You may be rite, Agile may not be for those who have been using GDB for
> some time...and know how to add "some custom-defined buttons" in
> DDD....;-)

Now this is _really_ simple. For example:

Start DDD. Click "Commands" => "Edit Buttons"
Enter:	"target remote bdi:2001 //  Connect to BDI"
Click "OK".
See a new button "Connect to BDI" appear. Click it.

Don't forget to "Save Options" if you want to make  your  definitions
permanent.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

--
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd@denx.de
I will not say that women have no character;  rather, they have a new
one every day.                                               -- Heine

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Steven Rothweiler]

Wolfgang,

>From the AgileDB product data sheet (I can send it to you if
you'd like), it is clearly a GUI front end for GDB, or any
other debugger you want to use.  They allow you to issue any
GDB (or any tool's) command-line command from a prompt, if
that's what you're familiar with.  From their data sheet:

Channels and Connections
------------------------
AgileDB communicates to any number of debug devices or tools
using Connections and Channels.

Connections are physical connections to devices, tools or
target services.  Channels are logical paths across a
connection.  Examples of some typical tools and services you
can connect to AgileDB:

* The BDI 2000 ICE Command Set
* The GDB Command Set
* Target Serial I/O (over telnet)
* Any Tool or Service that uses Telnet
* Boot Agents Like: PPC/U-BOOT
* User-Defined Tests and Target Services

Theoretically, you're supposed to have productivity gains
by using their GUI (if you invest the time to learn it, just
as you've invested time to learn a CLI) over the equivalent
CLI way of doing it.  Their "claim to fame" is that they've
solved the "window-explosion" problem that most GUI
debuggers suffer from.  In a particular debug session, you
can put all of the things that are most important to you
into a single window.  I have no idea if this enhances
productivity, but I know that one of the reasons that I
prefer CLIs is that I spend more time opening, closing,
re-sizing, and just plain fiddling with the GUI windows.

If it were up to me, I'd just use the CLI.  But I work for
a company that has to consider the productivity of engineers
whom they're paying to train.  If they train them on a CLI,
and their productivity is not as good as if they had trained
them on a GUI, then they are not helping the company.

(And I'd like to keep my job ;)
--
Steven Rothweiler               Raritan Computer Inc
Embedded Engineer               400 Cottontail Lane
mailto:stevenr@raritan.com      Somerset, NJ   08873
732-764-8886 x1256


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wolfgang Denk [mailto:wd@denx.de]
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:48 AM
> To: Muhammad Sarwar
> Cc: Steven Rothweiler; linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
> Subject: Re: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE
>
> In message
> <8529B5552D4EAA4DAEDF49650C64B2B437128C@TARPON.mangrovesystems
> .com> Muhammad Sarwar wrote:
> >
> > Main advantage of Agile is that it integrates Abatron's commands and
> > GDB debugging services.
>
> I have not used AgileDB yet. How does this integration work? I  mean,
> how much more do you get than when using GDB's "monitor" command?
>
> > Nice GUI for all BDI and GDB features at one place
>
> You can use DDD and add some custom-defined buttons.
>
> > Ability to move registers, structs etc to same watch window (by click
> > and drag)  Tools to automate some processes like loading of register
> > init file, playing back command script
>
> I suspect this might be just using GDB features?
>
> > Ability to set PC, other registers etc
>
> Standard GDB features...
>
> > Ability to use the same software for debugging of user applications
>
> Standard GDB feature.
>
> > However there are some problems:
> >
> > Program crashes frequently, they are offering new version
> of SW which
> > is supposed to be more stable. Problems in setting break points.
> > Problem in getting stack info display. Bug in display of struct
> > info
> >
> > I think overall it brings good value for boot and kernel debugging.
>
> I'm sorry, but from what you listed I don't see any advantages...
>
> [But I have to admit that I've been using  GDB  and  CLIs  for  some
> time...]
>
> Best regards,
>
> Wolfgang Denk
>
> --
> Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
> Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd@denx.de
> "The bad reputation UNIX has gotten is totally undeserved, laid on by
> people who don't understand, who have not gotten in there  and  tried
> anything."          -- Jim Joyce, owner of Jim Joyce's UNIX Bookstore
>

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

RE: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Muhammad Sarwar]

You may be rite, Agile may not be for those who have been using GDB for
some time...and know how to add "some custom-defined buttons" in
DDD....;-)


Regards,

Muhammad Sarwar
Mangrove Systems Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wolfgang Denk [mailto:wd@denx.de]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:48 AM
To: Muhammad Sarwar
Cc: Steven Rothweiler; linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject: Re: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

In message
<8529B5552D4EAA4DAEDF49650C64B2B437128C@TARPON.mangrovesystems.com>
Muhammad Sarwar wrote:
>
> Main advantage of Agile is that it integrates Abatron's commands and
> GDB debugging services.

I have not used AgileDB yet. How does this integration work? I  mean,
how much more do you get than when using GDB's "monitor" command?

> Nice GUI for all BDI and GDB features at one place

You can use DDD and add some custom-defined buttons.

> Ability to move registers, structs etc to same watch window(by click
> and drag)  Tools to automate some processes like loading of register
> init file, playing back command script

I suspect this might be just using GDB features?

> Ability to set PC, other registers etc

Standard GDB features...

> Ability to use the same software for debugging of user applications

Standard GDB feature.

> However there are some problems:
>
> Program crashes frequently, they are offering new version of SW which
> is supposed to be more stable. Problems in setting break points.
> Problem in getting stack info display. Bug in display of struct
> info
>
> I think overall it brings good value for boot and kernel debugging.

I'm sorry, but from what you listed I don't see any advantages...

[But I have to admit that I've been using  GDB  and  CLI's  for  some
time...]

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

--
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd@denx.de
"The bad reputation UNIX has gotten is totally undeserved, laid on by
people who don't understand, who have not gotten in there  and  tried
anything."          -- Jim Joyce, owner of Jim Joyce's UNIX Bookstore

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Wolfgang Denk]

In message <159C486347C8D3119B1D005004A469400244BC18@OLIVE> you wrote:
>
> We have neither product in house right now, and we
> are trying to decide whether to evaluate them for
> the development of our product.

You definitely should evaluate AgileDB befroe buing it.
[You cannot go wrong when buying a BDI2000:-) ]

> I've seen a lot of good remarks about the Abatron
> BDI 2000 ICE (that you shouldn't leave home without
> it), but not much about AgileDB.  The product data
> sheet looks impressive.  Any strong opinions out
> there?

A very strong opinion: you have to decide this yourself. Ask what  it
costs, and what you get for it.

Ask questions like:

* Does it run under Linux (fit in a Linux based development
  envrionment)?
* Is it a new propriatary debugger, or just another inteface for GDB?
* Which advantages has it over existing free solutions like DDD?
* How much are you willing to pay for these advantages?

etc.

Hope this helps.

Wolfgang Denk

--
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd@denx.de
Compassion -- that's the one things no machine ever had.  Maybe it's
the one thing that keeps men ahead of them.
	-- McCoy, "The Ultimate Computer", stardate 4731.3

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

AgileDB and Abatron BDI 2000 ICE

[Steven Rothweiler]

Hi,

My organization is moving to Linux on MPC8270 (HW
being designed right now) and I was wondering what
everyone thought of the AgileDB-LX debugger, when
used with the Abatron BDI 2000 ICE.

We have neither product in house right now, and we
are trying to decide whether to evaluate them for
the development of our product.

I've seen a lot of good remarks about the Abatron
BDI 2000 ICE (that you shouldn't leave home without
it), but not much about AgileDB.  The product data
sheet looks impressive.  Any strong opinions out
there?

Also, we have an opening for an embedded PPC/Linux
engineer.  Where is the best place to post the ad?

Thanks.
--
Steven Rothweiler               Raritan Computer Inc
Embedded Engineer               400 Cottontail Lane
mailto:stevenr@raritan.com      Somerset, NJ   08873
732-764-8886 x1256

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/