OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Miller, Marc]

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I would like to invite you to participate in our next OSDL Desktop Linux
Technical workgroup call.  The topic this week is power management, and
will be lead by Pat Mochel.  AMD and Intel will be working together for
this call to provide processor-neutral material, and we hope to provide
data that's relevant for the handheld market, notebooks, desktops, and
servers.

 

I extend apologies to people in sections of the world where this is not
a convenient time.  If you are interested in the material we are
presenting and 8-9 a.m. US/Pacific is not a convenient time for you,
please contact me direct BEFORE 8/24 and we'll work out a solution for
you (how we resolve will depend on the needs of the respondents).  

 

Tollfree: 1-800-211-0633 
Toll: 1-719-867-0485 
Passcode: 942698

 

 

  <http://www.amd.com/> 

Innovative low-power processor solutions.

 

Marc J. Miller
Strategic Alliance Manager

OSDL Carrier Grade Linux Strategist

OSDL Desktop/Client Linux Vice Chairman

AMD
1 AMD Place M/S 105
Sunnyvale, CA 94088
<http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=1+AMD+Place+MS+105&csz=S
unnyvale%2C+CA++94088&country=us>  

marc.miller@amd.com <mailto:marc.miller@amd.com> 
http://www.amd.com <http://www.amd.com/>  

tel: 
fax: 
mobile: 

(408) 749-3325
(408) 774-7047
(408) 425-4017 

 

Add me to your address book...
<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=12885205857&v0=596993&k0=2129274316> 

Want a signature like this? <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> 

 

 


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Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Miller, Marc wrote:
> I would like to invite you to participate in our next OSDL Desktop Linux
> Technical workgroup call.  The topic this week is power management, and
> will be lead by Pat Mochel.  AMD and Intel will be working together for
> this call to provide processor-neutral material, and we hope to provide
> data that's relevant for the handheld market, notebooks, desktops, and
> servers.

What is the goal of such a meeting?  And how does it compare to the
recently proposed patches here on this mailing list?

Is there a published agenda?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 07:09:55PM -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Miller, Marc wrote:
> > I would like to invite you to participate in our next OSDL Desktop Linux
> > Technical workgroup call.  The topic this week is power management, and
> > will be lead by Pat Mochel.  AMD and Intel will be working together for
> > this call to provide processor-neutral material, and we hope to provide
> > data that's relevant for the handheld market, notebooks, desktops, and
> > servers.
> 
> What is the goal of such a meeting?  And how does it compare to the
> recently proposed patches here on this mailing list?
> 
> Is there a published agenda?

No response?  Ok, I guess no one will take the time to join then :(

greg k-h

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Preece Scott-PREECE]

Might be better to send the question to Patrick, since he's listed as
running the meeting.

>From the description, it sounds like they have some content to present
and get feedback on, but your guess is at least as good as mine on what
the content is. I don't know Marc and I'm not usually involved in the
Desktop side of OSDL activities...

scott 

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-pm-bounces@lists.osdl.org
[mailto:linux-pm-bounces@lists.osdl.org] On Behalf Of Greg KH
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 4:10 PM
To: Miller, Marc
Cc: linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
Subject: Re: [linux-pm] OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m.
Pacific

On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 07:09:55PM -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Miller, Marc wrote:
> > I would like to invite you to participate in our next OSDL Desktop 
> > Linux Technical workgroup call.  The topic this week is power 
> > management, and will be lead by Pat Mochel.  AMD and Intel will be 
> > working together for this call to provide processor-neutral 
> > material, and we hope to provide data that's relevant for the 
> > handheld market, notebooks, desktops, and servers.
> 
> What is the goal of such a meeting?  And how does it compare to the 
> recently proposed patches here on this mailing list?
> 
> Is there a published agenda?

No response?  Ok, I guess no one will take the time to join then :(

greg k-h
_______________________________________________
linux-pm mailing list
linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-pm

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 05:22:46PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> Might be better to send the question to Patrick, since he's listed as
> running the meeting.

He reads this list :)

And Marc was the one who invited us.

> From the description, it sounds like they have some content to present
> and get feedback on, but your guess is at least as good as mine on what
> the content is. I don't know Marc and I'm not usually involved in the
> Desktop side of OSDL activities...

Seems odd that they would want to do this through a meeting, instead of
the standard way to do Linux development, unless they want to circumvent
the process for some reason...

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Preece Scott-PREECE]

 
> From: Greg KH [mailto:greg@kroah.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 4:30 PM
> To: Preece Scott-PREECE
> Cc: Miller, Marc; linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
> Subject: Re: [linux-pm] OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 
> 8 a.m. Pacific
> 
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 05:22:46PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> > Might be better to send the question to Patrick, since he's 
> listed as 
> > running the meeting.
> 
> He reads this list :)
> 
> And Marc was the one who invited us.
> 
> > From the description, it sounds like they have some content 
> to present 
> > and get feedback on, but your guess is at least as good as mine on 
> > what the content is. I don't know Marc and I'm not usually 
> involved in 
> > the Desktop side of OSDL activities...
> 
> Seems odd that they would want to do this through a meeting, 
> instead of the standard way to do Linux development, unless 
> they want to circumvent the process for some reason...
---

Well, OSDL is one of several groups formed to try to encourage
development in areas that its member companies prefer. OSDL has
topic-specific working groups, which consist of people from member
companies who are interested in specific technology areas. Those working
groups meet so they can educate each other, coordinate activity,
prioritize OSDL's activities on the specific topics, attempt to reach
consensus on the direction the members would like to encourage, and so
forth. 

I'm not sure why you think it's outside "the standard process" to issue
an open invitation to community members to attend a WG meeting. I don't
think there's a lot of point to pretending that, just because kernel
contributions come from individuals, those individuals are independent.
You think Intel and Motorola and other companies with a growing stake in
the open source market don't have internal meetings to organize their
activity, as well as participating in groups like OSDL, CELF, etc.?

Regards,
scott

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> 
> Well, OSDL is one of several groups formed to try to encourage
> development in areas that its member companies prefer. OSDL has
> topic-specific working groups, which consist of people from member
> companies who are interested in specific technology areas. Those working
> groups meet so they can educate each other, coordinate activity,
> prioritize OSDL's activities on the specific topics, attempt to reach
> consensus on the direction the members would like to encourage, and so
> forth. 

I for one, am very familiar with what OSDL does, on many levels, but
thanks for the summary :)

> I'm not sure why you think it's outside "the standard process" to issue
> an open invitation to community members to attend a WG meeting.

Because kernel development doesn't happen at WG meetings.  It happens
when code is posted.  To think otherwise is to not understand the kernel
development process.

> I don't think there's a lot of point to pretending that, just because
> kernel contributions come from individuals, those individuals are
> independent.

I never made such a statement.

> You think Intel and Motorola and other companies with a growing stake in
> the open source market don't have internal meetings to organize their
> activity, as well as participating in groups like OSDL, CELF, etc.?

Again, I never made such a statement.

I do however, doubt that a working group meeting is a useful thing for
any kernel developer to spend their time attending, unless it is at the
behalf of their employer.  And I say this as someone who has attended
many such meetings at OSDL and other places.

Again, I will ask these simple questions:

  - Why is the community being invited to such a meeting?
  - Is there a proposed adgenda so that the community members can
    determine if it is worth their time?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Preece Scott-PREECE]

 
> From: Greg KH [mailto:greg@kroah.com] 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> > 
> > Well, OSDL is one of several groups formed to try to encourage 
> > development in areas that its member companies prefer. OSDL has 
> > topic-specific working groups, which consist of people from member 
> > companies who are interested in specific technology areas. Those 
> > working groups meet so they can educate each other, coordinate 
> > activity, prioritize OSDL's activities on the specific 
> topics, attempt 
> > to reach consensus on the direction the members would like to 
> > encourage, and so forth.
> 
> I for one, am very familiar with what OSDL does, on many 
> levels, but thanks for the summary :)
---

I assumed you were... :-)

---
> 
> > I'm not sure why you think it's outside "the standard process" to 
> > issue an open invitation to community members to attend a 
> WG meeting.
> 
> Because kernel development doesn't happen at WG meetings.  It 
> happens when code is posted.  To think otherwise is to not 
> understand the kernel development process.
---

So, kernel developers never talk to each other or non-developers except
through mailing lists? I don't suppose kernel development happens at
OLS, either, but people seem to go anyway. [Well, looking around the OLS
sessions, it was clear that some did, but I'm guessing that wasn't the
primary intention of bringing people to Canada.]

---
...
> 
> I do however, doubt that a working group meeting is a useful 
> thing for any kernel developer to spend their time attending, 
> unless it is at the behalf of their employer.  And I say this 
> as someone who has attended many such meetings at OSDL and 
> other places.
---

Again, kernel developers have no need to get input from people outside
the mailing-list community and no interest in sharing information with
them?  Heads-down coding is the best and highest use of every
developer's time (other than, of course, the 100% of time needed to
track LKML)?

---
> 
> Again, I will ask these simple questions:
> 
>   - Why is the community being invited to such a meeting?
---

My assumption was it was (a) intended as a courtesy to involve
additional people in what would normally be a members-only meeting and
(b) because they wanted an opportunity to speak to and hear from the
developers. I'll let Marc or Patrick provide the real answer.

---
>   - Is there a proposed adgenda so that the community members can
>     determine if it is worth their time?
---

That would be nice (though, if I had a dollar for every meeting I've
gone to without a pre-announced agenda, I wouldn't need to go to
meetings).

Regards,
scott

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 06:35:16PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> > From: Greg KH [mailto:greg@kroah.com] 
> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> > > I'm not sure why you think it's outside "the standard process" to 
> > > issue an open invitation to community members to attend a 
> > WG meeting.
> > 
> > Because kernel development doesn't happen at WG meetings.  It 
> > happens when code is posted.  To think otherwise is to not 
> > understand the kernel development process.
> ---
> 
> So, kernel developers never talk to each other or non-developers except
> through mailing lists? I don't suppose kernel development happens at
> OLS, either, but people seem to go anyway. [Well, looking around the OLS
> sessions, it was clear that some did, but I'm guessing that wasn't the
> primary intention of bringing people to Canada.]

Comparing OLS to an OSDL working group meeting is totally unfair, there
is no comparison.

> > I do however, doubt that a working group meeting is a useful 
> > thing for any kernel developer to spend their time attending, 
> > unless it is at the behalf of their employer.  And I say this 
> > as someone who has attended many such meetings at OSDL and 
> > other places.
> ---
> 
> Again, kernel developers have no need to get input from people outside
> the mailing-list community and no interest in sharing information with
> them?

So are you asking for information from us?  If so, please ask.

And remember, we are here, in public, all the time.  Working groups and
industry employes are free to contact us at any time.  You don't have to
try to set up a meeting to do so.

Again, if this is the goal of the meeting, then say so.  I have yet to
see a reason for anyone to attend.

> > 
> > Again, I will ask these simple questions:
> > 
> >   - Why is the community being invited to such a meeting?
> ---
> 
> My assumption was it was (a) intended as a courtesy to involve
> additional people in what would normally be a members-only meeting and

Don't worry, the community doesn't feel like we are slighted if we were
not invited.

> (b) because they wanted an opportunity to speak to and hear from the
> developers. I'll let Marc or Patrick provide the real answer.

Did they?  No one has said this!

> ---
> >   - Is there a proposed adgenda so that the community members can
> >     determine if it is worth their time?
> ---
> 
> That would be nice (though, if I had a dollar for every meeting I've
> gone to without a pre-announced agenda, I wouldn't need to go to
> meetings).

But as people would be doing this on their own time, you would not want
to waste it if it was possible.  Don't force company "you must go to a
meeting" rules on people who do not have to go.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Preece Scott-PREECE]

 
> [mailto:linux-pm-bounces@lists.osdl.org] On Behalf Of Greg KH
 ...
> > Again, kernel developers have no need to get input from 
> people outside 
> > the mailing-list community and no interest in sharing 
> information with 
> > them?
> 
> So are you asking for information from us?  If so, please ask.
> 
> And remember, we are here, in public, all the time.  Working 
> groups and industry employes are free to contact us at any 
> time.  You don't have to try to set up a meeting to do so.
---

Odd - you're free to be contacted, but when the group contacted you, you
complained? I don't think they set up the meeting for the purpose of
contacting you; they were already holding the meeting and announced it
for anyone who might be interested.

---
> ...
> > >   - Why is the community being invited to such a meeting?
> > ---
> > 
> > My assumption was it was (a) intended as a courtesy to involve 
> > additional people in what would normally be a members-only 
> meeting and
> 
> Don't worry, the community doesn't feel like we are slighted 
> if we were not invited.
---

Clearly, I should have just answered, "Why not?" and left it at that.

---
> 
> > (b) because they wanted an opportunity to speak to and hear 
> from the 
> > developers. I'll let Marc or Patrick provide the real answer.
> 
> Did they?  No one has said this!
---

I would have thought that was implicit in an invitation to a working
group meeting, but that's just me...

---
> ...
> > That would be nice (though, if I had a dollar for every 
> meeting I've 
> > gone to without a pre-announced agenda, I wouldn't need to go to 
> > meetings).
> 
> But as people would be doing this on their own time, you 
> would not want to waste it if it was possible.  Don't force 
> company "you must go to a meeting" rules on people who do not 
> have to go.
---

Did you feel coerced by the announcement? If you had seen the meeting
announcement on the bulletin board at your local coffee shop, who you
have felt similarly negative about the notice having been posted? You
would have preferred that they not make the offer to anyone, because you
aren't interested without an agenda?

Rhetorical debate was fun, but I'll let you get back to useful work,
now, and wait for Patrick or Marc to post the agenda.

Bottom line is that I thought it was a little over-the-top for you to
decline the invitation on behalf of everyone, ("I guess no one will take
the time to join then") rather than just for yourself...

Scott

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 10:45:04AM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
>  
> > [mailto:linux-pm-bounces@lists.osdl.org] On Behalf Of Greg KH
>  ...
> > > Again, kernel developers have no need to get input from 
> > people outside 
> > > the mailing-list community and no interest in sharing 
> > information with 
> > > them?
> > 
> > So are you asking for information from us?  If so, please ask.
> > 
> > And remember, we are here, in public, all the time.  Working 
> > groups and industry employes are free to contact us at any 
> > time.  You don't have to try to set up a meeting to do so.
> ---
> 
> Odd - you're free to be contacted, but when the group contacted you, you
> complained? I don't think they set up the meeting for the purpose of
> contacting you; they were already holding the meeting and announced it
> for anyone who might be interested.

Contact us by emailing us and interacting that way.  Don't ask us to
attend some random phone call, where the goals and adgenda is not even
published.  That's not working with us, but rather annoying us (see your
previous comment about attending meetings with no adgendas...)

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 04:54:06PM -0500, Miller, Marc wrote:
> The OSDL Desktop Linux Tech workgroup rotates through a variety of
> topics relevant to desktop developers.  It's an opportunity for
> developers and business people to ask questions about the status of
> Linux development and get realtime answers.  ...but our format is not
> that of a "presentation" but rather a roundtable, similar to the format
> of the OSDL Desktop Architects meetings.  We find that by having a
> meeting like this across multiple communities, we're able to connect
> people to activities they weren't aware of, and leverage off of each
> others' work.

What other kernel related communities have you done this with in the
past?  How well has it worked out?

My experiences in the past with other OSDL working groups was that the
conversation was always very one-sided...

And thanks for posting the agenda, much appreciated.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Miller, Marc]

I've had a hard time getting a hold of Pat (been trying for a few weeks
now).  Normally we publish the agenda a week in advance.  Thankfully I
got a response from him today.  After I meet with him tonight and we
agree on the topics, I'll be sure to send out an agenda so that you can
determine whether it's worth your time.

Marc J. Miller
AMD Strategic Alliance Manager
OSDL Desktop/Client Linux Co-Chairman
OSDL Carrier Grade Linux Strategist
W:  +1 (800) 538-8450 x43325
M:  +1 (408) 425-4017
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Preece Scott-PREECE [mailto:scott.preece@motorola.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:35 PM
To: Greg KH
Cc: Miller, Marc; linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
Subject: RE: [linux-pm] OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m.
Pacific

 
> From: Greg KH [mailto:greg@kroah.com] 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> > 
> > Well, OSDL is one of several groups formed to try to encourage 
> > development in areas that its member companies prefer. OSDL has 
> > topic-specific working groups, which consist of people from member 
> > companies who are interested in specific technology areas. Those 
> > working groups meet so they can educate each other, coordinate 
> > activity, prioritize OSDL's activities on the specific 
> topics, attempt 
> > to reach consensus on the direction the members would like to 
> > encourage, and so forth.
> 
> I for one, am very familiar with what OSDL does, on many 
> levels, but thanks for the summary :)
---

I assumed you were... :-)

---
> 
> > I'm not sure why you think it's outside "the standard process" to 
> > issue an open invitation to community members to attend a 
> WG meeting.
> 
> Because kernel development doesn't happen at WG meetings.  It 
> happens when code is posted.  To think otherwise is to not 
> understand the kernel development process.
---

So, kernel developers never talk to each other or non-developers except
through mailing lists? I don't suppose kernel development happens at
OLS, either, but people seem to go anyway. [Well, looking around the OLS
sessions, it was clear that some did, but I'm guessing that wasn't the
primary intention of bringing people to Canada.]

---
...
> 
> I do however, doubt that a working group meeting is a useful 
> thing for any kernel developer to spend their time attending, 
> unless it is at the behalf of their employer.  And I say this 
> as someone who has attended many such meetings at OSDL and 
> other places.
---

Again, kernel developers have no need to get input from people outside
the mailing-list community and no interest in sharing information with
them?  Heads-down coding is the best and highest use of every
developer's time (other than, of course, the 100% of time needed to
track LKML)?

---
> 
> Again, I will ask these simple questions:
> 
>   - Why is the community being invited to such a meeting?
---

My assumption was it was (a) intended as a courtesy to involve
additional people in what would normally be a members-only meeting and
(b) because they wanted an opportunity to speak to and hear from the
developers. I'll let Marc or Patrick provide the real answer.

---
>   - Is there a proposed adgenda so that the community members can
>     determine if it is worth their time?
---

That would be nice (though, if I had a dollar for every meeting I've
gone to without a pre-announced agenda, I wouldn't need to go to
meetings).

Regards,
scott

Re: OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m. Pacific

[Miller, Marc]

The OSDL Desktop Linux Tech workgroup rotates through a variety of
topics relevant to desktop developers.  It's an opportunity for
developers and business people to ask questions about the status of
Linux development and get realtime answers.  ...but our format is not
that of a "presentation" but rather a roundtable, similar to the format
of the OSDL Desktop Architects meetings.  We find that by having a
meeting like this across multiple communities, we're able to connect
people to activities they weren't aware of, and leverage off of each
others' work.


Marc J. Miller
AMD Strategic Alliance Manager
OSDL Desktop/Client Linux Co-Chairman
OSDL Carrier Grade Linux Strategist
W:  +1 (800) 538-8450 x43325
M:  +1 (408) 425-4017
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Preece Scott-PREECE [mailto:scott.preece@motorola.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:46 PM
To: Greg KH
Cc: Miller, Marc; linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
Subject: RE: [linux-pm] OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 8 a.m.
Pacific

 
> From: Greg KH [mailto:greg@kroah.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 4:30 PM
> To: Preece Scott-PREECE
> Cc: Miller, Marc; linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
> Subject: Re: [linux-pm] OSDL Power Management call 8/24/2006 
> 8 a.m. Pacific
> 
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 05:22:46PM -0400, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:
> > Might be better to send the question to Patrick, since he's 
> listed as 
> > running the meeting.
> 
> He reads this list :)
> 
> And Marc was the one who invited us.
> 
> > From the description, it sounds like they have some content 
> to present 
> > and get feedback on, but your guess is at least as good as mine on 
> > what the content is. I don't know Marc and I'm not usually 
> involved in 
> > the Desktop side of OSDL activities...
> 
> Seems odd that they would want to do this through a meeting, 
> instead of the standard way to do Linux development, unless 
> they want to circumvent the process for some reason...
---

Well, OSDL is one of several groups formed to try to encourage
development in areas that its member companies prefer. OSDL has
topic-specific working groups, which consist of people from member
companies who are interested in specific technology areas. Those working
groups meet so they can educate each other, coordinate activity,
prioritize OSDL's activities on the specific topics, attempt to reach
consensus on the direction the members would like to encourage, and so
forth. 

I'm not sure why you think it's outside "the standard process" to issue
an open invitation to community members to attend a WG meeting. I don't
think there's a lot of point to pretending that, just because kernel
contributions come from individuals, those individuals are independent.
You think Intel and Motorola and other companies with a growing stake in
the open source market don't have internal meetings to organize their
activity, as well as participating in groups like OSDL, CELF, etc.?

Regards,
scott