[KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

  now that 2.6.20 is official, what's the schedule for the queued
patches to hit linus' tree?

rday

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:04:10 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> 
>   now that 2.6.20 is official, what's the schedule for the queued
> patches to hit linus' tree?

Which patches are queued?

IMO, it would help if other KJ subscribers would comment on
patches and not just leave everything up to the maintainer,
although I don't know what the maintainer thinks of this.

And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
"within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:04:10 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>
> >
> >   now that 2.6.20 is official, what's the schedule for the queued
> > patches to hit linus' tree?
>
> Which patches are queued?

sorry, maybe i'm misunderstanding the patch process.  i'm interested
in when all the stuff in, for example, andrew morton's -mm tree is
going to make it into the main git tree so it's part of my regular
pull and i can start submitting patches against *that* stuff.

rday

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.

that's what i'd heard.  so what this means is that, now that 2.6.20 is
out, there's a 2-week window to try to ram in all of the non-bugfix
related cleanup that we've discussing to get it into 2.6.21, is that
right?

rday


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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:19:11 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:04:10 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >   now that 2.6.20 is official, what's the schedule for the queued
> > > patches to hit linus' tree?
> >
> > Which patches are queued?
> 
> sorry, maybe i'm misunderstanding the patch process.  i'm interested
> in when all the stuff in, for example, andrew morton's -mm tree is
> going to make it into the main git tree so it's part of my regular
> pull and i can start submitting patches against *that* stuff.


Andrew waits for most subsystem maintainers to push patches to
Linus before he pushes his remaining patches (where subsystem includes
both driver types, like USB, PCI, SCSI, I2C, etc., and processor
architectures).  All of those maintainers have about 2 weeks to
push patches, and then somewhere toward the end of that window,
Andrew will push his collected patches.  This is because Andrew
wants to make it easier on the subsystem maintainers -- he can
resolve patch conflicts easily (usually) in the -mm tree.

However, "all the stuff" in Andrew's tree won't be pushed.  He will
hold some of it back due to lack of maturity or known bugs or it just
being test-only code etc.  Anyway, we all just wait until it's been
pushed.


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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:21:26 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> 
> > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
> 
> that's what i'd heard.  so what this means is that, now that 2.6.20 is
> out, there's a 2-week window to try to ram in all of the non-bugfix
> related cleanup that we've discussing to get it into 2.6.21, is that
> right?

Yes, and it won't all go in at one time.  Having it spread out
makes bug detection more feasible.

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:21:26 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> >
> > > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
> >
> > that's what i'd heard.  so what this means is that, now that
> > 2.6.20 is out, there's a 2-week window to try to ram in all of the
> > non-bugfix related cleanup that we've discussing to get it into
> > 2.6.21, is that right?
>
> Yes, and it won't all go in at one time.  Having it spread out makes
> bug detection more feasible.

all right so, not to belabour this but, if i have a patch that i'd
really like to be applied to this upcoming cycle, and i've submitted
it, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, what's the proper
procedure to start getting more insistent as that 2-week window starts
to close so that i don't miss out?

i'm referring to adding the maturity levels OBSOLETE and DEPRECATED to
kconfig.  when i first presented that, it seemed to go over well and
people appeared to like it but, since then ... nothing.

who do i prod when time starts to run out so i don't miss an entire
release cycle?

rday

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====================================
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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:59:08 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:21:26 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > >
> > > > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > > > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
> > >
> > > that's what i'd heard.  so what this means is that, now that
> > > 2.6.20 is out, there's a 2-week window to try to ram in all of the
> > > non-bugfix related cleanup that we've discussing to get it into
> > > 2.6.21, is that right?
> >
> > Yes, and it won't all go in at one time.  Having it spread out makes
> > bug detection more feasible.
> 
> all right so, not to belabour this but, if i have a patch that i'd
> really like to be applied to this upcoming cycle, and i've submitted
> it, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, what's the proper
> procedure to start getting more insistent as that 2-week window starts
> to close so that i don't miss out?

Oh, so this possibly isn't even a KJ patch.  I see.

One element of the proper procedure is to be persistent.

> i'm referring to adding the maturity levels OBSOLETE and DEPRECATED to
> kconfig.  when i first presented that, it seemed to go over well and
> people appeared to like it but, since then ... nothing.

I didn't follow it.  Did any maintainer merge it for testing?
Has it been in -mm for awhile?

> who do i prod when time starts to run out so i don't miss an entire
> release cycle?

Resend it, cc: akpm on it and the kbuild/kconfig people,
include any acks that it received earlier just after your S-O-B...

But if it hasn't been in -mm or some git tree for awhile,
I doubt that it would be merged into the mainline kernel tree
this quickly.

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Oleg Verych]

[]
> Resend it, cc: akpm on it and the
> kbuild/kconfig people,

these people (listed in MAINTAINERS) are not active at all :(
Sam for half year or so, Roman has joined and sent some comments, but
no more last week. (I did some makefile update/upgrade. one scripts KJ
patch was even here, with no luck.)
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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Chris Miller]

On 2/5/07, Randy Dunlap <rdunlap@xenotime.net> wrote:> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:04:10 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:>> >> >   now that 2.6.20 is official, what's the schedule for the queued> > patches to hit linus' tree?>> Which patches are queued?>> IMO, it would help if other KJ subscribers would comment on> patches and not just leave everything up to the maintainer,> although I don't know what the maintainer thinks of this.>> And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is> "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
To me it sounds like this patch process needs to be clearly documentedwith nice viewgraphs and other visual aids somewhere.
Okay, maybe not "nice" viewgraphs, but a ASCII-art flowchart couldn'thurt, now could it?
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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Jesper Juhl]

On 05/02/07, Robert P. J. Day <rpjday@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:21:26 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > >
> > > > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > > > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
> > >
> > > that's what i'd heard.  so what this means is that, now that
> > > 2.6.20 is out, there's a 2-week window to try to ram in all of the
> > > non-bugfix related cleanup that we've discussing to get it into
> > > 2.6.21, is that right?
> >
> > Yes, and it won't all go in at one time.  Having it spread out makes
> > bug detection more feasible.
>
> all right so, not to belabour this but, if i have a patch that i'd
> really like to be applied to this upcoming cycle, and i've submitted
> it, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, what's the proper
> procedure to start getting more insistent as that 2-week window starts
> to close so that i don't miss out?
>
> i'm referring to adding the maturity levels OBSOLETE and DEPRECATED to
> kconfig.  when i first presented that, it seemed to go over well and
> people appeared to like it but, since then ... nothing.
>
> who do i prod when time starts to run out so i don't miss an entire
> release cycle?
>
Well, there are no hard and solid rules, all you have are rough
guidelines and a lot of different maintainers all handling it a bit
different ;-)

I can tell you what I usually do (which seems to work fairly well).

For really trivial patches -
  I (initially) send them to LKML, and Cc any maintainers and other
relevant people I can find + add trivial@kernel.org to Cc as well.
Sometimes a maintainer picks up the patch and fast-tracks it into
mainline and all is well. If it doesn't go into mainline quickly I
rely on Adrian Bunk (the current Trivial Patch Monkey) to queue the
patch in his trivial pile and expect the patch to be merged into
current.released.kernel.version + 2 - that is, stuff I submit this way
while 2.6.19.x is current and 2.6.20 is under development I expect to
get merged in the 2.6.21 development timeline and end up in 2.6.21
final.  If for some reason Adrian doesn't push my patch during the 2
week 2.6.21 merge window then I'll resend the patch at the time
2.6.21-rc1 hits the street and poke people to include it or at least
queue it up for 2.6.22 - if it still doesn't catch on I'll keep doing
this for subsequent kernel versions (or until I get a NACK on the
patch).

For not so trivial patches (or trivial patches that I think are a bit
more important) -
  I'll send the patch initially to LKML + Cc maintainers/authors etc.
Then I'll usually wait 7-10 days for feedback and if I get none I'll
resend the patch at that point in time and probably add Andrew Morton
to Cc the second time around.  Then I'll keep resending the patch once
or twice a month (keeping it up-to-date of course) until a maintainer
queues it for upstream inclusion or I get a NACK.  If the patch gets
included in -mm I'll usually let it sit there through at least one
kernel release and then if Andrew or a maintainer doesn't push it
onwards during the start of the next merge window I'll usually poke
the maintainer and Andrew some time during the second week of that
merge window (and I usually do the same if it gets queued in another
maintainers tree instead of Andrews -mm tree).

But remember that the above are just some rough guidelines I follow
for my own patches as a rule of thumb. For some patches I am more
aggressive in pushing them, for some I'm a lot less annoying :-)   It
all depends on the patch, how important I think it is, what amount
(and kind) of feedback I get, how much time I have etc etc..

Hope that helps a bit :-)

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:21:26 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> >
> > > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
> >
> > that's what i'd heard.  so what this means is that, now that
> > 2.6.20 is out, there's a 2-week window to try to ram in all of the
> > non-bugfix related cleanup that we've discussing to get it into
> > 2.6.21, is that right?
>
> Yes, and it won't all go in at one time.  Having it spread out makes
> bug detection more feasible.

among other things i was wondering is why nothing seems to have gone
into linus' tree since 2.6.20 was officially released.

typically, i build my patches against the latest "git pull", and i
would have thought that, once 2.6.20 was tagged, that git repo would
open and start to pull the next set of patches on its way to 2.6.21.
but, as of one day later, that tree hasn't changed at all.

is there some reason it's unchanged since yesterday?  i'm just trying
to get a feel both for the patch flow and the timing.

rday


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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Jesper Juhl]

On 06/02/07, Robert P. J. Day <rpjday@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:21:26 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > >
> > > > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > > > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
> > >
> > > that's what i'd heard.  so what this means is that, now that
> > > 2.6.20 is out, there's a 2-week window to try to ram in all of the
> > > non-bugfix related cleanup that we've discussing to get it into
> > > 2.6.21, is that right?
> >
> > Yes, and it won't all go in at one time.  Having it spread out makes
> > bug detection more feasible.
>
> among other things i was wondering is why nothing seems to have gone
> into linus' tree since 2.6.20 was officially released.
>
> typically, i build my patches against the latest "git pull", and i
> would have thought that, once 2.6.20 was tagged, that git repo would
> open and start to pull the next set of patches on its way to 2.6.21.
> but, as of one day later, that tree hasn't changed at all.
>
> is there some reason it's unchanged since yesterday?  i'm just trying
> to get a feel both for the patch flow and the timing.
>

Probably a case of (or rather, a combination of)

 - Linus being too busy with other stuff to pull patches.
 - People not asking Linus to pull.
 - People not resending their patches.
 - kernel.org servers being slow to mirror out changes.
 - The phase of the moon being wrong ;)


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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 06:27:07PM -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> is there some reason it's unchanged since yesterday?  i'm just trying
> to get a feel both for the patch flow and the timing.

Give the subsystem maintainers a day or two to get their patch queue
engines up and running :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Miller wrote:

> On 2/5/07, Randy Dunlap <rdunlap@xenotime.net> wrote:
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:04:10 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >   now that 2.6.20 is official, what's the schedule for the
> > > queued patches to hit linus' tree?
> >
> > Which patches are queued?
> >
> > IMO, it would help if other KJ subscribers would comment on
> > patches and not just leave everything up to the maintainer,
> > although I don't know what the maintainer thinks of this.
> >
> > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
>
> To me it sounds like this patch process needs to be clearly
> documented with nice viewgraphs and other visual aids somewhere.

i agree, and i think it's important to clarify the timeline to ensure
that potential kernel janitors have realistic expectations as to when
(or even *if*) their patches are finally going to make it into the
main tree.

as it stands, a number of kernel janitors have been working pretty
hard creating and submitting patches, possibly not being aware of this
whole "two-week merge window" thing, which means that, given that
things will get increasingly frantic as that window starts to close,
there's a strong possibility that a *lot* of those patch submissions
won't make it in, and will have to wait until the *next* kernel cycle.
that has the potential to discourage some people who would really like
to see the fruits of their labour, but are about to learn the hard way
that they're just going to have to wait for another few months (if not
longer).

this is particularly crucial for patches that are an underlying
dependency for future work.  if those "base" patches don't make it in,
it gets that much harder to work on patches that sit on top of that
work.

and, not to belabour this point but, almost two days after 2.6.20 was
released, there is still (AFAICT) not a single change to the main
tree.  normally, two days wouldn't mean that much but, when you're
talking about only a two-week merge window, the clock is ticking.

at the risk of stepping on a few toes here, come on, folks -- the new
kernel's out, the super bowl's over, the beer is all gone, it's been a
relaxing couple of days, but it's time to get this process rolling,
no?  the people who have been putting in all that time generating
patches to help with the cleanup deserve at least that consideration,
don't you think?

rday

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:33:44 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Miller wrote:
> 
> > On 2/5/07, Randy Dunlap <rdunlap@xenotime.net> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:04:10 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >   now that 2.6.20 is official, what's the schedule for the
> > > > queued patches to hit linus' tree?
> > >
> > > Which patches are queued?
> > >
> > > IMO, it would help if other KJ subscribers would comment on
> > > patches and not just leave everything up to the maintainer,
> > > although I don't know what the maintainer thinks of this.
> > >
> > > And lastly, the schedule for everyone to send non-bug-fixes is
> > > "within 2 weeks of the 2.6.20 announcement" AFAIK.
> >
> > To me it sounds like this patch process needs to be clearly
> > documented with nice viewgraphs and other visual aids somewhere.
> 
> i agree, and i think it's important to clarify the timeline to ensure
> that potential kernel janitors have realistic expectations as to when
> (or even *if*) their patches are finally going to make it into the
> main tree.
> 
> as it stands, a number of kernel janitors have been working pretty
> hard creating and submitting patches, possibly not being aware of this
> whole "two-week merge window" thing, which means that, given that
> things will get increasingly frantic as that window starts to close,
> there's a strong possibility that a *lot* of those patch submissions
> won't make it in, and will have to wait until the *next* kernel cycle.
> that has the potential to discourage some people who would really like
> to see the fruits of their labour, but are about to learn the hard way
> that they're just going to have to wait for another few months (if not
> longer).

OK, if anyone on the KJ mailing list has outstanding KJ patches,
please do this:

1.  identify the patch by date and subject
2.  tell me if it is merged anywhere for testing
	(if not, it will be difficult for the patch to be merged
	in the 2.6.20 open patch window)

and I will see what I can do to help Alexey with the KJ patch queue.


> this is particularly crucial for patches that are an underlying
> dependency for future work.  if those "base" patches don't make it in,
> it gets that much harder to work on patches that sit on top of that
> work.
> 
> and, not to belabour this point but, almost two days after 2.6.20 was
> released, there is still (AFAICT) not a single change to the main
> tree.  normally, two days wouldn't mean that much but, when you're
> talking about only a two-week merge window, the clock is ticking.

You are welcome to take that up with Linus.  We (or any subsystem
maintainers) do not control that.

> at the risk of stepping on a few toes here, come on, folks -- the new
> kernel's out, the super bowl's over, the beer is all gone, it's been a
> relaxing couple of days, but it's time to get this process rolling,
> no?  the people who have been putting in all that time generating
> patches to help with the cleanup deserve at least that consideration,
> don't you think?

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:33:44 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

... snip ...

> > this is particularly crucial for patches that are an underlying
> > dependency for future work.  if those "base" patches don't make it
> > in, it gets that much harder to work on patches that sit on top of
> > that work.
> >
> > and, not to belabour this point but, almost two days after 2.6.20
> > was released, there is still (AFAICT) not a single change to the
> > main tree.  normally, two days wouldn't mean that much but, when
> > you're talking about only a two-week merge window, the clock is
> > ticking.
>
> You are welcome to take that up with Linus.  We (or any subsystem
> maintainers) do not control that.

i didn't want to take it *that* far up the food chain (yet).  but i
think it's important for anyone who's looking for a KJ project to
understand how long it might be before they actually see their work in
the kernel itself.

i mean, theoretically, say someone took on a small project right after
the merge window closed at 2.6.20-rc1.  they finish the project
quickly, submit the patch, but the merge window is already gone, so
they're looking at 2.6.20 itself before their work *might* finally be
added to the main tree.  but not necessarily.

given that we're in a 2-week window *now*, i'm guessing things are
going be some kind of busy so patches that aren't considered
breathlessly critical might be overlooked.  and the window closes
again, and the KJ person is now looking at 2.6.21.  possibly.

i'm not saying it's necessary to change the rate at which patches are
pulled into the main tree.  but i think it *is* necessary to have a
reasonable description about how the process works and the timeline
involved.

of course, it may be that everyone else has always known this stuff
and i'm the *only* one who's figured it out just recently.  but, human
nature being what it is, there's nothing more discouraging than
someone who signs on as an enthusiastic KJ person and invests hours of
work fixing something, only to see that work apparently vanish down
the memory hole for a kernel release or two.

i'm interested in other peoples' thoughts.  am i making too much of
this?  (not like that would be the first time.  :-)

rday

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Rich Morgan]

On Wed, February 7, 2007 9:22 am, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> given that we're in a 2-week window *now*, i'm guessing things are
> going be some kind of busy so patches that aren't considered
> breathlessly critical might be overlooked.  and the window closes
> again, and the KJ person is now looking at 2.6.21.  possibly.

Could a group of patchers get together and submit, say, one larger patch
instead of 10 smaller patches and have a better opportunity of getting
them included in rc1?  Do the subsystem maintainers decide what patches
are forwarded onto Linus?

v/r,
Rich Morgan
OpenAddict.com

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Rich Morgan wrote:

>
> On Wed, February 7, 2007 9:22 am, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > given that we're in a 2-week window *now*, i'm guessing things are
> > going be some kind of busy so patches that aren't considered
> > breathlessly critical might be overlooked.  and the window closes
> > again, and the KJ person is now looking at 2.6.21.  possibly.
>
> Could a group of patchers get together and submit, say, one larger
> patch instead of 10 smaller patches and have a better opportunity of
> getting them included in rc1?  Do the subsystem maintainers decide
> what patches are forwarded onto Linus?

that's probably not feasible -- maintainers prefer to see patches
separated based on the subsystem.  it wouldn't make much sense to
combine patches that address different issues.

rday


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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 09:56:53AM -0500, Rich Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Wed, February 7, 2007 9:22 am, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > given that we're in a 2-week window *now*, i'm guessing things are
> > going be some kind of busy so patches that aren't considered
> > breathlessly critical might be overlooked.  and the window closes
> > again, and the KJ person is now looking at 2.6.21.  possibly.
> 
> Could a group of patchers get together and submit, say, one larger patch
> instead of 10 smaller patches and have a better opportunity of getting
> them included in rc1?  Do the subsystem maintainers decide what patches
> are forwarded onto Linus?

Yes, that is the subsystem maintainer's job :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:56:53 -0500 (EST) Rich Morgan wrote:

> 
> On Wed, February 7, 2007 9:22 am, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > given that we're in a 2-week window *now*, i'm guessing things are
> > going be some kind of busy so patches that aren't considered
> > breathlessly critical might be overlooked.  and the window closes
> > again, and the KJ person is now looking at 2.6.21.  possibly.
> 
> Could a group of patchers get together and submit, say, one larger patch
> instead of 10 smaller patches and have a better opportunity of getting
> them included in rc1?  Do the subsystem maintainers decide what patches
> are forwarded onto Linus?

I agree with Robert that this doesn't help out.

Yes, the subsystem maintainers decide that.  And the 2-week open merge
window is more flexible that it is "hard," so some non-critical patches
will almost definitely be merged after that window.

Still, patches need to have been merged somewhere (preferably -mm)
for testing for some duration before they are candidates to be merged
into mainline.  [This sorta makes the old KJ patchset not very
meaningful any longer.  Note that several of Ahmed Darwish's
ARRAY_SIZE patches have already been acked and/or merged by their
subsystem maintainers.]


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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Greg KH wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 09:56:53AM -0500, Rich Morgan wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, February 7, 2007 9:22 am, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > > given that we're in a 2-week window *now*, i'm guessing things
> > > are going be some kind of busy so patches that aren't considered
> > > breathlessly critical might be overlooked.  and the window
> > > closes again, and the KJ person is now looking at 2.6.21.
> > > possibly.
> >
> > Could a group of patchers get together and submit, say, one larger
> > patch instead of 10 smaller patches and have a better opportunity
> > of getting them included in rc1?  Do the subsystem maintainers
> > decide what patches are forwarded onto Linus?
>
> Yes, that is the subsystem maintainer's job :)

just to clarify what *i* meant, i meant that *individuals* should
submit logically separate patches.  subsystem maintainers are, of
course, free to bundle them once they get them.

rday

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:22:13 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:33:44 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> 
> ... snip ...
> 
> > > and, not to belabour this point but, almost two days after 2.6.20
> > > was released, there is still (AFAICT) not a single change to the
> > > main tree.  normally, two days wouldn't mean that much but, when
> > > you're talking about only a two-week merge window, the clock is
> > > ticking.
> >
> > You are welcome to take that up with Linus.  We (or any subsystem
> > maintainers) do not control that.
> 
> i didn't want to take it *that* far up the food chain (yet).  but i
> think it's important for anyone who's looking for a KJ project to
> understand how long it might be before they actually see their work in
> the kernel itself.

Sure.  And it seems that we have discussed that a few times.

> i mean, theoretically, say someone took on a small project right after
> the merge window closed at 2.6.20-rc1.  they finish the project
> quickly, submit the patch, but the merge window is already gone, so
> they're looking at 2.6.20 itself before their work *might* finally be
> added to the main tree.  but not necessarily.
> 
> given that we're in a 2-week window *now*, i'm guessing things are
> going be some kind of busy so patches that aren't considered
> breathlessly critical might be overlooked.  and the window closes
> again, and the KJ person is now looking at 2.6.21.  possibly.
> 
> i'm not saying it's necessary to change the rate at which patches are
> pulled into the main tree.  but i think it *is* necessary to have a
> reasonable description about how the process works and the timeline
> involved.
> 
> of course, it may be that everyone else has always known this stuff
> and i'm the *only* one who's figured it out just recently.  but, human
> nature being what it is, there's nothing more discouraging than
> someone who signs on as an enthusiastic KJ person and invests hours of
> work fixing something, only to see that work apparently vanish down
> the memory hole for a kernel release or two.
> 
> i'm interested in other peoples' thoughts.  am i making too much of
> this?  (not like that would be the first time.  :-)

Could you write it up for wiki or blog at fsdev.net?
or the http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo wiki?
(but presumably not on the Todo page)

> ====================================

> http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

regarding patching and timelines ...

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:22:13 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> > of course, it may be that everyone else has always known this
> > stuff and i'm the *only* one who's figured it out just recently.
> > but, human nature being what it is, there's nothing more
> > discouraging than someone who signs on as an enthusiastic KJ
> > person and invests hours of work fixing something, only to see
> > that work apparently vanish down the memory hole for a kernel
> > release or two.
> >
> > i'm interested in other peoples' thoughts.  am i making too much
> > of this?  (not like that would be the first time.  :-)
>
> Could you write it up for wiki or blog at fsdev.net? or the
> http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo wiki? (but presumably
> not on the Todo page)

sorry, write *what* up?

rday

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====================================
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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:34:16 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> regarding patching and timelines ...
> 
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:22:13 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> 
> > > of course, it may be that everyone else has always known this
> > > stuff and i'm the *only* one who's figured it out just recently.
> > > but, human nature being what it is, there's nothing more
> > > discouraging than someone who signs on as an enthusiastic KJ
> > > person and invests hours of work fixing something, only to see
> > > that work apparently vanish down the memory hole for a kernel
> > > release or two.
> > >
> > > i'm interested in other peoples' thoughts.  am i making too much
> > > of this?  (not like that would be the first time.  :-)
> >
> > Could you write it up for wiki or blog at fsdev.net? or the
> > http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo wiki? (but presumably
> > not on the Todo page)
> 
> sorry, write *what* up?

I meant a summary of this email thread, but perhaps there isn't
one that most of us agree with.

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:34:16 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>
> > regarding patching and timelines ...
> >
> > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:22:13 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> > > > of course, it may be that everyone else has always known this
> > > > stuff and i'm the *only* one who's figured it out just recently.
> > > > but, human nature being what it is, there's nothing more
> > > > discouraging than someone who signs on as an enthusiastic KJ
> > > > person and invests hours of work fixing something, only to see
> > > > that work apparently vanish down the memory hole for a kernel
> > > > release or two.
> > > >
> > > > i'm interested in other peoples' thoughts.  am i making too much
> > > > of this?  (not like that would be the first time.  :-)
> > >
> > > Could you write it up for wiki or blog at fsdev.net? or the
> > > http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo wiki? (but presumably
> > > not on the Todo page)
> >
> > sorry, write *what* up?
>
> I meant a summary of this email thread, but perhaps there isn't
> one that most of us agree with.

yeah, i'm still not clear on what the summary *is*.  once i know it,
i'll be *happy* to write it up.  is there, somewhere, an online doc
that touches on this?  perhaps one that could be updated?

rday

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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Randy Dunlap]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:00:48 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:34:16 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> > > regarding patching and timelines ...
> > >
> > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:22:13 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > >
> > > > > of course, it may be that everyone else has always known this
> > > > > stuff and i'm the *only* one who's figured it out just recently.
> > > > > but, human nature being what it is, there's nothing more
> > > > > discouraging than someone who signs on as an enthusiastic KJ
> > > > > person and invests hours of work fixing something, only to see
> > > > > that work apparently vanish down the memory hole for a kernel
> > > > > release or two.
> > > > >
> > > > > i'm interested in other peoples' thoughts.  am i making too much
> > > > > of this?  (not like that would be the first time.  :-)
> > > >
> > > > Could you write it up for wiki or blog at fsdev.net? or the
> > > > http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo wiki? (but presumably
> > > > not on the Todo page)
> > >
> > > sorry, write *what* up?
> >
> > I meant a summary of this email thread, but perhaps there isn't
> > one that most of us agree with.
> 
> yeah, i'm still not clear on what the summary *is*.  once i know it,
> i'll be *happy* to write it up.  is there, somewhere, an online doc
> that touches on this?  perhaps one that could be updated?

Greg KH did this a couple of years ago.  It's probably close but
might need some updating.  It's here:

  http://www.kroah.com/linux/talks/ols_2004_kernel_devel_talk/

I don't recall anything else like this at the moment.
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Re: [KJ] so ... when are all the pending patches unleashed?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

>   http://www.kroah.com/linux/talks/ols_2004_kernel_devel_talk/

ok, i'll see what i can do with that.

rday

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