linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Please fix it.

								Pavel

On Sun 2009-08-02 13:52:10, linux-arm-kernel-bounces@lists.arm.linux.org.uk wrote:
> Your mail to 'Linux-arm-kernel' with the subject
> 
>     Re: [Bug #13833] Kernel Oops when trying to suspend with ubifs
> mounted on block2mtd mtd device
> 
> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
> 
> The reason it is being held:
> 
>     Too many recipients to the message
> 
> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
> notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
> this posting, please visit the following URL:
> 
>     http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/confirm/linux-arm-kernel/f8f1b8bf951193aa673ceab3235d78c807c858da

-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Russell King]

On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> 
> Please fix your mailinglist.
> 
> You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
> yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
> simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Given your attitude, I'm going to say I'm NOT going to do a damned
thing if you can't talk to me in a sane and civilised way.

Treat me like shit and you will be treated as shit.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Russell King]

Erik,

Since Pavel is incapable of copying you (and seemingly believes
that I'm solely responsible for admin'ing these lists), maybe
you'd like to respond to this, which is another of Pavel's
spontaneous public community wide whinges about linux-arm-kernel?

On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> 
> Please fix your mailinglist.
> 
> You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
> yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
> simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.
> 
> Please fix it.
> 
> 								Pavel
> 
> On Sun 2009-08-02 13:52:10, linux-arm-kernel-bounces@lists.arm.linux.org.uk wrote:
> > Your mail to 'Linux-arm-kernel' with the subject
> > 
> >     Re: [Bug #13833] Kernel Oops when trying to suspend with ubifs
> > mounted on block2mtd mtd device
> > 
> > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
> > 
> > The reason it is being held:
> > 
> >     Too many recipients to the message
> > 
> > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
> > notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
> > this posting, please visit the following URL:
> > 
> >     http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/confirm/linux-arm-kernel/f8f1b8bf951193aa673ceab3235d78c807c858da
> 
> -- 
> (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
> (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

On Tue 2009-08-04 23:28:40, Russell King wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > 
> > Please fix your mailinglist.
> > 
> > You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
> > yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
> > simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.
> 
> Given your attitude, I'm going to say I'm NOT going to do a damned
> thing if you can't talk to me in a sane and civilised way.

Fine. You are unwilling to fix the mailinglist,

> Treat me like shit and you will be treated as shit.

and your behaviour leaves quite a lot to be desired, so... can we
simply move mailinglist to someone who can (and is willing) to
actually maintain it, like vger?
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Russell King]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 12:07:01PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> On Tue 2009-08-04 23:28:40, Russell King wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > > 
> > > Please fix your mailinglist.
> > > 
> > > You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
> > > yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
> > > simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.
> > 
> > Given your attitude, I'm going to say I'm NOT going to do a damned
> > thing if you can't talk to me in a sane and civilised way.
> 
> Fine. You are unwilling to fix the mailinglist,
> 
> > Treat me like shit and you will be treated as shit.
> 
> and your behaviour leaves quite a lot to be desired, so... can we
> simply move mailinglist to someone who can (and is willing) to
> actually maintain it, like vger?

It appears the answer to that is no.  People are free to subscribe to
the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me.  However,
it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that
seems to be where the expertise is.

Moreover,

(a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public
accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.

(b) you refuse to copy the right people, like Erik Mouw who co-
maintains the ARM mailing lists (and who does the bulk of the admin.)

(c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not*
rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it doesn't
like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than out-right rejecting
it.

I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging
about?  Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into
/dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved?  It
strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your whinging.

In this case, you've hit the *default* maximum recipients limit.  I
bet most other mailman-run mailing lists also have the same limit,
and therefore would also have held your message.  However, despite that,
instead of talking to both myself and Erik in private, you have
to shout out on public mailing lists about how the ARM lists are
useless for development.

So, excuse me if I don't lift a finger to help you if that's how you
behave.  Maybe Erik will feel differently, but your attitude has
completely demotivated me to provide you with any help.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Erik Mouw]

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On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 23:39:22 +0100
Russell King <rmk+lkml@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote:

> Erik,
> 
> Since Pavel is incapable of copying you (and seemingly believes
> that I'm solely responsible for admin'ing these lists), maybe
> you'd like to respond to this, which is another of Pavel's
> spontaneous public community wide whinges about linux-arm-kernel?

(Sorry about the delay, Russell)

> On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > 
> > Please fix your mailinglist.
> > 
> > You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
> > yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
> > simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.
> > 
> > Please fix it.

It is indeed possible to cross post between lkml and lakml. The easiest
way to do that is to subscribe to the list and tell Mailman that you
don't want to receive any messages.

> > 								Pavel
> > 
> > On Sun 2009-08-02 13:52:10,
> > linux-arm-kernel-bounces@lists.arm.linux.org.uk wrote:
> > > Your mail to 'Linux-arm-kernel' with the subject
> > > 
> > >     Re: [Bug #13833] Kernel Oops when trying to suspend with ubifs
> > > mounted on block2mtd mtd device
> > > 
> > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
> > > 
> > > The reason it is being held:
> > > 
> > >     Too many recipients to the message
> > > 
> > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will
> > > receive notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would
> > > like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL:
> > > 
> > >     http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/confirm/linux-arm-kernel/f8f1b8bf951193aa673ceab3235d78c807c858da

Mailman doesn't like too many recipients. Don't care about that,
Russell or myself will approve your message anyway, it just takes a bit
longer.

When I get such a Mailman message from a list I just shrug. The
moderator will take care eventually and if he rejects it I don't care.
Suggest you try to do the same, there are may more important things
than a message that doesn't get it to a list.


Regards,

Erik

-- 
Erik Mouw -- mouw@nl.linux.org
GPG key fingerprint: D6AC 7F15 A26E C5C4 62E0  4A58 FCF9 551C 9B48 B68D

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Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

On Thu 2009-08-06 11:44:21, Russell King wrote:

> It appears the answer to that is no.  People are free to subscribe to
> the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me.  However,
> it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that
> seems to be where the expertise is.
> 
> Moreover,
> 
> (a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public
> accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.

When I tried asking in private, I was told to stop complaining or loose
my mailing list subscription. I'd prefer not to make that mistake again.

> (c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not*
> rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it doesn't
> like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than out-right rejecting
> it.

For lakml, held for moderation _does_ mean it will return with
"posting rejected: no reason given" in few days. I have never seen any
other result, and have got perfectly reasonable messages rejected with
"no reason". So no, I do not believe there's cooperative human being
moderating lakml.

> I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging
> about?  Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into
> /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved?  It
> strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your
> whinging.

So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who
complains?

									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > > Please fix your mailinglist.
> > > 
> > > You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
> > > yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
> > > simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.
> > > 
> > > Please fix it.
> 
> It is indeed possible to cross post between lkml and lakml. The easiest
> way to do that is to subscribe to the list and tell Mailman that you
> don't want to receive any messages.

Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.

Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer
on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be
increased to lkml levels?

> When I get such a Mailman message from a list I just shrug. The
> moderator will take care eventually and if he rejects it I don't care.
> Suggest you try to do the same, there are may more important things
> than a message that doesn't get it to a list.

Well, I'd say that mailing list is pretty vital for Linux-style 
development, and those rejects are simply far too frequent.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Russell King]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 01:02:47PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> On Thu 2009-08-06 11:44:21, Russell King wrote:
> 
> > It appears the answer to that is no.  People are free to subscribe to
> > the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me.  However,
> > it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that
> > seems to be where the expertise is.
> > 
> > Moreover,
> > 
> > (a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public
> > accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.
> 
> When I tried asking in private, I was told to stop complaining or loose
> my mailing list subscription. I'd prefer not to make that mistake again.

... in response to your whinging about the "headers matched a filter
rule" mailman whining.  I had enough of your whinging and whining in
April, and I've certainly had enough now.  But guess what?  The
problem eventually got fixed after working out what was going on.

> > (c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not*
> > rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it doesn't
> > like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than out-right rejecting
> > it.
> 
> For lakml, held for moderation _does_ mean it will return with
> "posting rejected: no reason given" in few days. I have never seen any
> other result, and have got perfectly reasonable messages rejected with
> "no reason". So no, I do not believe there's cooperative human being
> moderating lakml.

http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090730.090827.654305e1.en.html

is your message that you're currently stiring the shit about.  Oh
look, it's in the archives.  Oh, that means it must have been
let through.

> > I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging
> > about?  Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into
> > /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved?  It
> > strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your
> > whinging.
> 
> So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who
> complains?

No.  My solution would have been to fix the mailing list had you not
made this a public issue in an offensive way.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Erik Mouw]

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On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 13:02:47 +0200
Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:

> On Thu 2009-08-06 11:44:21, Russell King wrote:
> 
> > It appears the answer to that is no.  People are free to subscribe
> > to the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me.
> > However, it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists,
> > because that seems to be where the expertise is.
> > 
> > Moreover,
> > 
> > (a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public
> > accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.
> 
> When I tried asking in private, I was told to stop complaining or
> loose my mailing list subscription. I'd prefer not to make that
> mistake again.

I can't comment on that one. I have to admit I have been busy (both
private and at work) lately, so I haven't been able to spend as much
time on list maintenance as I would like to.

> 
> > (c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not*
> > rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it
> > doesn't like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than
> > out-right rejecting it.
> 
> For lakml, held for moderation _does_ mean it will return with
> "posting rejected: no reason given" in few days. I have never seen any
> other result, and have got perfectly reasonable messages rejected with
> "no reason". So no, I do not believe there's cooperative human being
> moderating lakml.

That's not true. For every message I reject I always explain the
reason. Most of the time it is "Please subcribe before you're allowed to
post".

> > I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're
> > whinging about?  Would you prefer that your message was silently
> > dropped into /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue
> > being resolved?  It strikes me that _that_ would be a better
> > solution than all your whinging.
> 
> So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who
> complains?

No, if you asked us in private, it would already be solved. I just
increased the max_num_recipients from the default 15 to 30. That should
solve your problem.


Regards,

Erik

-- 
Erik Mouw -- mouw@nl.linux.org
GPG key fingerprint: D6AC 7F15 A26E C5C4 62E0  4A58 FCF9 551C 9B48 B68D

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Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Russell King]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 01:31:04PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > > > Please fix your mailinglist.
> > > > 
> > > > You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
> > > > yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
> > > > simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.
> > > > 
> > > > Please fix it.
> > 
> > It is indeed possible to cross post between lkml and lakml. The easiest
> > way to do that is to subscribe to the list and tell Mailman that you
> > don't want to receive any messages.
> 
> Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.
> 
> Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer
> on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be
> increased to lkml levels?

The mail size is currently 100K, having been recently increased.  I
believe this is a sane limit.

The number of people is 15, which is probably a little low.  I've
already explained my personal position over that limit concerning
requests from you.  Erik's position may be different.

> > When I get such a Mailman message from a list I just shrug. The
> > moderator will take care eventually and if he rejects it I don't care.
> > Suggest you try to do the same, there are may more important things
> > than a message that doesn't get it to a list.
> 
> Well, I'd say that mailing list is pretty vital for Linux-style 
> development, and those rejects are simply far too frequent.

This is the first time in at least one month that anything from you has
been held according to the logs.  If I look at my mailbox which has
3400+ messages from the list since 1st June, you have sent 78 messages,
only one of which was held.

I think you need to develop a realistic sense of proportion.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Erik Mouw]

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On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 13:31:04 +0200
Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:

> Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.
> 
> Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer
> on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be
> increased to lkml levels?

Spammers indeed stand no chance on lakml, but that was not the main
reason to make it a closed list.

Max mail size is on 100k. That should be enough, patches larger
than that should have been broken up anyway. I just increased the
number of people in the CC list from 15 to 30 so that should resolve
most of the recipients issues. When the CC list gets larger than that,
it's usually a flamewar anyway ;-)


Regards,

Erik

-- 
Erik Mouw -- mouw@nl.linux.org
GPG key fingerprint: D6AC 7F15 A26E C5C4 62E0  4A58 FCF9 551C 9B48 B68D

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Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[David John]

On 08/06/2009 05:38 PM, Russell King wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 01:31:04PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>>>>> Please fix your mailinglist.
>>>>>
>>>>> You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml,
>>>>> yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as
>>>>> simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please fix it.
>>> It is indeed possible to cross post between lkml and lakml. The easiest
>>> way to do that is to subscribe to the list and tell Mailman that you
>>> don't want to receive any messages.
>> Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.
>>
>> Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer
>> on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be
>> increased to lkml levels?
> 
> The mail size is currently 100K, having been recently increased.  I
> believe this is a sane limit.
> 
> The number of people is 15, which is probably a little low.  I've
> already explained my personal position over that limit concerning
> requests from you.  Erik's position may be different.
> 
>>> When I get such a Mailman message from a list I just shrug. The
>>> moderator will take care eventually and if he rejects it I don't care.
>>> Suggest you try to do the same, there are may more important things
>>> than a message that doesn't get it to a list.
>> Well, I'd say that mailing list is pretty vital for Linux-style 
>> development, and those rejects are simply far too frequent.
> 
> This is the first time in at least one month that anything from you has
> been held according to the logs.  If I look at my mailbox which has
> 3400+ messages from the list since 1st June, you have sent 78 messages,
> only one of which was held.
> 
> I think you need to develop a realistic sense of proportion.
> 

I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is
difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say,
a simple bug report.

If data protection laws prevent you from keeping an open list, can't you
host the list at kernel.org or elsewhere?

Regards,
David.

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Russell King]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:59:01PM +0530, David John wrote:
> I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is
> difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say,
> a simple bug report.
> 
> If data protection laws prevent you from keeping an open list, can't you
> host the list at kernel.org or elsewhere?

If only it were as simple as that.

Basically, to properly resolve this I need a *UK* solicitor who is
well versed in data protection issues to advise.  Given that this
is purely voluntary, I'm not willing to spend vast sums of money in
the legal domain to sort this issue out.

Neither am I willing to take a chance.

And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any
of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside
the EU were to run the list.  And people would have to independently
subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber
list outside the EU.

Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal
profession...  Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or
would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:40 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:59:01PM +0530, David John wrote:
> > I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is
> > difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say,
> > a simple bug report.
> If only it were as simple as that.
[]
> I'm not willing to spend vast sums of money in
> the legal domain to sort this issue out.
> Neither am I willing to take a chance.

What chances are those?

> And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any
> of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside
> the EU were to run the list.  And people would have to independently
> subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber
> list outside the EU.

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

Perhaps you overestimate the value of the arm subscriber database
as well as the work involved to subscribe to a list.

Adding a "click this to subscribe to the new list" to the mailing
list trailer would work reasonably well.

> Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal
> profession...  Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or
> would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?

Perhaps not using the gas boiler is another option.

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[David John]

On 08/06/2009 06:10 PM, Russell King wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:59:01PM +0530, David John wrote:
>> I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is
>> difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say,
>> a simple bug report.
>>
>> If data protection laws prevent you from keeping an open list, can't you
>> host the list at kernel.org or elsewhere?
> 
> If only it were as simple as that.
> 
> Basically, to properly resolve this I need a *UK* solicitor who is
> well versed in data protection issues to advise.  Given that this
> is purely voluntary, I'm not willing to spend vast sums of money in
> the legal domain to sort this issue out.
> 
> Neither am I willing to take a chance.
> 
> And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any
> of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside
> the EU were to run the list.  And people would have to independently
> subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber
> list outside the EU.
> 
> Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal
> profession...  Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or
> would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?
> 

I understand the issues you mentioned but IANAL so I can't comment. I'm really
surprised that Linux development for ARM isn't sponsored and that you would have
to pay from your own pocket to get legal advice. Surely at least the Linux Foundation
would be able to help?

If kernel development and the developers for ARM were sponsored (like x86 which has 
the mighty weight of Intel behind it), I'm sure simple logistical problems like this 
can be resolved and development can happen at a much faster pace. Although I agree
there isn't much _you_ can do about this personally.

Regards,
David.

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Russell King]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:40 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any
> > of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside
> > the EU were to run the list.  And people would have to independently
> > subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber
> > list outside the EU.
> 
> I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> 
> Perhaps you overestimate the value of the arm subscriber database
> as well as the work involved to subscribe to a list.
> 
> Adding a "click this to subscribe to the new list" to the mailing
> list trailer would work reasonably well.

There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
having issues.  I don't know.

I also believe that majordomo is still stuck in the dark ages wrt
subscribing - having to have a carefully composed email message to
subscribe or unsubscribe.  Having mailman's web interface took a
lot of work off of my shoulders when we moved the ARM lists off
of vger.rutgers.edu all those years back having to educate people
how to deal with majordomo.

Let's not forget - as Pavel has yet again proven - if you have a
problem with a mailing list, who do you talk to.  All the list
admins?  Of course not!  You email rmk and/or mailing lists
directly.

> > Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal
> > profession...  Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or
> > would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?
> 
> Perhaps not using the gas boiler is another option.

Maybe we should all go back to using coal fires then.  Oops, we moved
away from that to cleaner burning gas because of the smog problems
caused by burning dirty fuels.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[David John]

On 08/06/2009 07:03 PM, Russell King wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
>> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:40 +0100, Russell King wrote:
>>> And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any
>>> of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside
>>> the EU were to run the list.  And people would have to independently
>>> subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber
>>> list outside the EU.
>> I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
>>
>> Perhaps you overestimate the value of the arm subscriber database
>> as well as the work involved to subscribe to a list.
>>
>> Adding a "click this to subscribe to the new list" to the mailing
>> list trailer would work reasonably well.
> 
> There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> having issues.  I don't know.
> 
> I also believe that majordomo is still stuck in the dark ages wrt
> subscribing - having to have a carefully composed email message to
> subscribe or unsubscribe.  Having mailman's web interface took a
> lot of work off of my shoulders when we moved the ARM lists off
> of vger.rutgers.edu all those years back having to educate people
> how to deal with majordomo.

That may be true, but the key point here is that the majordomo list is open.
Which means that say if I am an admin and I happen to notice a bug, I can send 
an email to lkml knowing that someone more knowledgeable will be able to pick it up.
If on the other hand I have to subscribe to the list and then my mail has to be
moderator approved (which might take a few days considering the moderator's 
workload), I'm more likely to just let it slip and hope that it gets fixed in
the next release...

> 
> Let's not forget - as Pavel has yet again proven - if you have a
> problem with a mailing list, who do you talk to.  All the list
> admins?  Of course not!  You email rmk and/or mailing lists
> directly.
> 
>>> Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal
>>> profession...  Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or
>>> would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?
>> Perhaps not using the gas boiler is another option.
> 
> Maybe we should all go back to using coal fires then.  Oops, we moved
> away from that to cleaner burning gas because of the smog problems
> caused by burning dirty fuels.
> 

Regards,
David.

[PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> having issues.  I don't know.

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.

This might help.

Signed-off-by: Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>

diff --git a/MAINTAINERS b/MAINTAINERS
index b1114cf..63e3179 100644
--- a/MAINTAINERS
+++ b/MAINTAINERS
@@ -498,6 +498,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/include/asm/floppy.h
 ARM PORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/
@@ -509,6 +510,7 @@ F:	drivers/mmc/host/mmci.*
 ARM/ADI ROADRUNNER MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/include/mach/
@@ -516,43 +518,51 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/include/mach/
 ARM/ADS SPHERE MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/AFEB9260 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Sergey Lapin <slapin@ossfans.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/AJECO 1ARM MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/ATMEL AT91RM9200 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Andrew Victor <linux@maxim.org.za>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://maxim.org.za/at91_26.html
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EP93XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EDB9315A MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CLKDEV SUPPORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 F:	arch/arm/common/clkdev.c
 F:	arch/arm/include/asm/clkdev.h
 
 ARM/COMPULAB CM-X270/EM-X270 and CM-X300 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Mike Rapoport <mike@compulab.co.il>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CORGI MACHINE SUPPORT
@@ -562,6 +572,7 @@ S:	Maintained
 ARM/CORTINA SYSTEMS GEMINI ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Paulius Zaleckas <paulius.zaleckas@teltonika.lt>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 T:	git git://gitorious.org/linux-gemini/mainline.git
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-gemini/
@@ -569,6 +580,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-gemini/
 ARM/EBSA110 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ebsa110/
@@ -587,12 +599,14 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/ezx.c
 ARM/FARADAY FA526 PORT
 M:	Paulius Zaleckas <paulius.zaleckas@teltonika.lt>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mm/*-fa*
 
 ARM/FOOTBRIDGE ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/include/asm/hardware/dec21285.h
@@ -601,16 +615,19 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-footbridge/
 ARM/FREESCALE IMX / MXC ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/GLOMATION GESBC9312SX MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/GUMSTIX MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Steve Sakoman <sakoman@gmail.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/H4700 (HP IPAQ HX4700) MACHINE SUPPORT
@@ -631,54 +648,64 @@ ARM/INTEL IOP32X ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IOP33X ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IOP13XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IQ81342EX MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IXP2000 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/INTEL IXDP2850 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/INTEL IXP23XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/INTEL XSC3 (MANZANO) ARM CORE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/IP FABRICS DOUBLE ESPRESSO MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/LOGICPD PXA270 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/MAGICIAN MACHINE SUPPORT
@@ -688,6 +715,7 @@ S:	Maintained
 ARM/MIOA701 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Robert Jarzmik <robert.jarzmik@free.fr>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/mioa701.c
 S:	Maintained
 
@@ -729,17 +757,20 @@ S:	Maintained
 ARM/PT DIGITAL BOARD PORT
 M:	Stefan Eletzhofer <stefan.eletzhofer@eletztrick.de>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/RADISYS ENP2611 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/RISCPC ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/common/time-acorn.c
@@ -759,6 +790,7 @@ S:	Maintained
 ARM/SAMSUNG ARM ARCHITECTURES
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/plat-s3c/
@@ -767,6 +799,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/plat-s3c24xx/
 ARM/S3C2410 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2410/
@@ -774,6 +807,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2410/
 ARM/S3C2440 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2440/
@@ -781,6 +815,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2440/
 ARM/S3C2442 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2442/
@@ -788,6 +823,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2442/
 ARM/S3C2443 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2443/
@@ -795,6 +831,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2443/
 ARM/S3C6400 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6400/
@@ -802,6 +839,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6400/
 ARM/S3C6410 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6410/
@@ -809,22 +847,26 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6410/
 ARM/TECHNOLOGIC SYSTEMS TS7250 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/THECUS N2100 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/NUVOTON W90X900 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Wan ZongShun <mcuos.com@gmail.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.mcuos.com
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/VFP SUPPORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/vfp/
@@ -924,6 +966,7 @@ F:	include/linux/atm*
 ATMEL AT91 MCI DRIVER
 M:	Nicolas Ferre <nicolas.ferre@atmel.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.atmel.com/products/AT91/
 W:	http://www.at91.com/
 S:	Maintained
@@ -1502,6 +1545,7 @@ F:	drivers/infiniband/hw/cxgb3/
 CYBERPRO FB DRIVER
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	drivers/video/cyber2000fb.*
@@ -2047,6 +2091,7 @@ FREESCALE IMX / MXC FRAMEBUFFER DRIVER
 M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
 L:	linux-fbdev-devel@lists.sourceforge.net (moderated for non-subscribers)
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/plat-mxc/include/mach/imxfb.h
 F:	drivers/video/imxfb.c
@@ -3391,6 +3436,7 @@ F:	include/linux/meye.h
 MOTOROLA IMX MMC/SD HOST CONTROLLER INTERFACE DRIVER
 M:	Pavel Pisa <ppisa@pikron.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	drivers/mmc/host/imxmmc.*
 
@@ -4093,6 +4139,7 @@ PXA2xx/PXA3xx SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/
 F:	drivers/pcmcia/pxa2xx*
@@ -4106,12 +4153,14 @@ PXA168 SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
 M:	Jason Chagas <jason.chagas@marvell.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
 S:	Maintained
 
 PXA910 SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
 S:	Maintained
 
@@ -4353,6 +4402,7 @@ F:	net/iucv/
 S3C24XX SD/MMC Driver
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Supported
 F:	drivers/mmc/host/s3cmci.*
 
@@ -4548,6 +4598,7 @@ SHARP LH SUPPORT (LH7952X & LH7A40X)
 M:	Marc Singer <elf@buici.com>
 W:	http://projects.buici.com/arm
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	Documentation/arm/Sharp-LH/ADC-LH7-Touchscreen
 F:	arch/arm/mach-lh7a40x/

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Ben Dooks]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> > There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> > moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> > have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> > as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> > having issues.  I don't know.
> 
> Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
> linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.

I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries
with linux-arm@vger.kernel.org list.
 
> This might help.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>
> 
> diff --git a/MAINTAINERS b/MAINTAINERS
> index b1114cf..63e3179 100644
> --- a/MAINTAINERS
> +++ b/MAINTAINERS
> @@ -498,6 +498,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/include/asm/floppy.h
>  ARM PORT
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/
> @@ -509,6 +510,7 @@ F:	drivers/mmc/host/mmci.*
>  ARM/ADI ROADRUNNER MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/include/mach/
> @@ -516,43 +518,51 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/include/mach/
>  ARM/ADS SPHERE MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/AFEB9260 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Sergey Lapin <slapin@ossfans.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/AJECO 1ARM MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/ATMEL AT91RM9200 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Andrew Victor <linux@maxim.org.za>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://maxim.org.za/at91_26.html
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EP93XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EDB9315A MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/CLKDEV SUPPORT
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  F:	arch/arm/common/clkdev.c
>  F:	arch/arm/include/asm/clkdev.h
>  
>  ARM/COMPULAB CM-X270/EM-X270 and CM-X300 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Mike Rapoport <mike@compulab.co.il>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/CORGI MACHINE SUPPORT
> @@ -562,6 +572,7 @@ S:	Maintained
>  ARM/CORTINA SYSTEMS GEMINI ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Paulius Zaleckas <paulius.zaleckas@teltonika.lt>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  T:	git git://gitorious.org/linux-gemini/mainline.git
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-gemini/
> @@ -569,6 +580,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-gemini/
>  ARM/EBSA110 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-ebsa110/
> @@ -587,12 +599,14 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/ezx.c
>  ARM/FARADAY FA526 PORT
>  M:	Paulius Zaleckas <paulius.zaleckas@teltonika.lt>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mm/*-fa*
>  
>  ARM/FOOTBRIDGE ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/include/asm/hardware/dec21285.h
> @@ -601,16 +615,19 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-footbridge/
>  ARM/FREESCALE IMX / MXC ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/GLOMATION GESBC9312SX MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/GUMSTIX MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Steve Sakoman <sakoman@gmail.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/H4700 (HP IPAQ HX4700) MACHINE SUPPORT
> @@ -631,54 +648,64 @@ ARM/INTEL IOP32X ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Supported
>  
>  ARM/INTEL IOP33X ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Supported
>  
>  ARM/INTEL IOP13XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Supported
>  
>  ARM/INTEL IQ81342EX MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Supported
>  
>  ARM/INTEL IXP2000 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/INTEL IXDP2850 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/INTEL IXP23XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/INTEL XSC3 (MANZANO) ARM CORE
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Supported
>  
>  ARM/IP FABRICS DOUBLE ESPRESSO MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/LOGICPD PXA270 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/MAGICIAN MACHINE SUPPORT
> @@ -688,6 +715,7 @@ S:	Maintained
>  ARM/MIOA701 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Robert Jarzmik <robert.jarzmik@free.fr>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/mioa701.c
>  S:	Maintained
>  
> @@ -729,17 +757,20 @@ S:	Maintained
>  ARM/PT DIGITAL BOARD PORT
>  M:	Stefan Eletzhofer <stefan.eletzhofer@eletztrick.de>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/RADISYS ENP2611 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/RISCPC ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/common/time-acorn.c
> @@ -759,6 +790,7 @@ S:	Maintained
>  ARM/SAMSUNG ARM ARCHITECTURES
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/plat-s3c/
> @@ -767,6 +799,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/plat-s3c24xx/
>  ARM/S3C2410 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2410/
> @@ -774,6 +807,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2410/
>  ARM/S3C2440 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2440/
> @@ -781,6 +815,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2440/
>  ARM/S3C2442 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2442/
> @@ -788,6 +823,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2442/
>  ARM/S3C2443 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2443/
> @@ -795,6 +831,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2443/
>  ARM/S3C6400 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6400/
> @@ -802,6 +839,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6400/
>  ARM/S3C6410 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6410/
> @@ -809,22 +847,26 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6410/
>  ARM/TECHNOLOGIC SYSTEMS TS7250 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/THECUS N2100 MACHINE SUPPORT
>  M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/NUVOTON W90X900 ARM ARCHITECTURE
>  M:	Wan ZongShun <mcuos.com@gmail.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.mcuos.com
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  ARM/VFP SUPPORT
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/vfp/
> @@ -924,6 +966,7 @@ F:	include/linux/atm*
>  ATMEL AT91 MCI DRIVER
>  M:	Nicolas Ferre <nicolas.ferre@atmel.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.atmel.com/products/AT91/
>  W:	http://www.at91.com/
>  S:	Maintained
> @@ -1502,6 +1545,7 @@ F:	drivers/infiniband/hw/cxgb3/
>  CYBERPRO FB DRIVER
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	drivers/video/cyber2000fb.*
> @@ -2047,6 +2091,7 @@ FREESCALE IMX / MXC FRAMEBUFFER DRIVER
>  M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
>  L:	linux-fbdev-devel@lists.sourceforge.net (moderated for non-subscribers)
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/plat-mxc/include/mach/imxfb.h
>  F:	drivers/video/imxfb.c
> @@ -3391,6 +3436,7 @@ F:	include/linux/meye.h
>  MOTOROLA IMX MMC/SD HOST CONTROLLER INTERFACE DRIVER
>  M:	Pavel Pisa <ppisa@pikron.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	drivers/mmc/host/imxmmc.*
>  
> @@ -4093,6 +4139,7 @@ PXA2xx/PXA3xx SUPPORT
>  M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
>  M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/
>  F:	drivers/pcmcia/pxa2xx*
> @@ -4106,12 +4153,14 @@ PXA168 SUPPORT
>  M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
>  M:	Jason Chagas <jason.chagas@marvell.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
>  S:	Maintained
>  
>  PXA910 SUPPORT
>  M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
>  S:	Maintained
>  
> @@ -4353,6 +4402,7 @@ F:	net/iucv/
>  S3C24XX SD/MMC Driver
>  M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Supported
>  F:	drivers/mmc/host/s3cmci.*
>  
> @@ -4548,6 +4598,7 @@ SHARP LH SUPPORT (LH7952X & LH7A40X)
>  M:	Marc Singer <elf@buici.com>
>  W:	http://projects.buici.com/arm
>  L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
>  S:	Maintained
>  F:	Documentation/arm/Sharp-LH/ADC-LH7-Touchscreen
>  F:	arch/arm/mach-lh7a40x/
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> List admin: http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel
> FAQ:        http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/faq.php
> Etiquette:  http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/etiquette.php

-- 
-- 
Ben

Q:      What's a light-year?
A:      One-third less calories than a regular year.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 16:03 +0100, Ben Dooks wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> > > There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> > > moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> > > have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> > > as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> > > having issues.  I don't know.
> > Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
> > linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.
> I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries
> with linux-arm@vger.kernel.org list.

linux-arm@vger.kernel.org is just another non-subscriber
required to post list.

If anyone is using MAINTAINERS to find a person to
send an email to, and finds you, you'd likely get
a direct email anyway.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Rafael J. Wysocki]

On Thursday 06 August 2009, Ben Dooks wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> > > There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> > > moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> > > have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> > > as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> > > having issues.  I don't know.
> > 
> > Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
> > linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.
> 
> I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries
> with linux-arm@vger.kernel.org list.

Do you want to receive bug reports, though?

Rafael

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 16:03 +0100, Ben Dooks wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> > > There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> > > moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> > > have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> > > as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> > > having issues.  I don't know.
> > 
> > Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
> > linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.
> 
> I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries
> with linux-arm@vger.kernel.org list.

Perhaps this patch is more palatable.  It's certainly shorter.

It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section
SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST).  By the way, another section you
maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a
pattern entry nor a mailing list entry.  Should it?

Signed-off-by: Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>

diff --git a/MAINTAINERS b/MAINTAINERS
index b1114cf..04c13c5 100644
--- a/MAINTAINERS
+++ b/MAINTAINERS
@@ -498,9 +498,11 @@ F:	arch/arm/include/asm/floppy.h
 ARM PORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/
+F:	drivers/*/arm/
 
 ARM PRIMECELL MMCI PL180/1 DRIVER
 S:	Orphan
@@ -2047,6 +2049,7 @@ FREESCALE IMX / MXC FRAMEBUFFER DRIVER
 M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
 L:	linux-fbdev-devel@lists.sourceforge.net (moderated for non-subscribers)
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/plat-mxc/include/mach/imxfb.h
 F:	drivers/video/imxfb.c
@@ -2616,6 +2619,8 @@ F:	drivers/dma/iop-adma.c
 
 INTEL IXP4XX QMGR, NPE, ETHERNET and HSS SUPPORT
 M:	Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl>
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx/include/mach/qmgr.h
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx/include/mach/npe.h
@@ -4093,6 +4098,7 @@ PXA2xx/PXA3xx SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/
 F:	drivers/pcmcia/pxa2xx*
@@ -4548,6 +4554,7 @@ SHARP LH SUPPORT (LH7952X & LH7A40X)
 M:	Marc Singer <elf@buici.com>
 W:	http://projects.buici.com/arm
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	Documentation/arm/Sharp-LH/ADC-LH7-Touchscreen
 F:	arch/arm/mach-lh7a40x/
@@ -4570,6 +4577,8 @@ S:	Supported
 SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST)
 P:	Ben Dooks
 M:	Vincent Sanders <support@simtec.co.uk>
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB2410ITX/
 S:	Supported
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2410/

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King]

On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 09:18:48AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 16:03 +0100, Ben Dooks wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > > > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> > > > There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> > > > moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> > > > have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> > > > as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> > > > having issues.  I don't know.
> > > 
> > > Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
> > > linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.
> > 
> > I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries
> > with linux-arm@vger.kernel.org list.
> 
> Perhaps this patch is more palatable.  It's certainly shorter.
> 
> It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section
> SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST).  By the way, another section you
> maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a
> pattern entry nor a mailing list entry.  Should it?

I recently had to remove those pattern entries because they were plainly
wrong (thanks to those who didn't CC anyone in the ARM community with
those patches.)  EB110ATX != EBSA110.  See ce53895.

I had asked the maintainer of that platform to submit a patch to add the
correct entries.  Rather than having plainly bogus entries in there,
let's have either nothing or the right entries.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 17:40 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 09:18:48AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section
> > SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST).  By the way, another section you
> > maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a
> > pattern entry nor a mailing list entry.  Should it?
> 
> I recently had to remove those pattern entries because they were plainly
> wrong (thanks to those who didn't CC anyone in the ARM community with
> those patches.)  EB110ATX != EBSA110.  See ce53895.

[cc's trimmed]

Nope.  Not the case.  I submitted that entry.
I cc'd both Ben and Vincent before submitting it.

> I had asked the maintainer of that platform to submit a patch to add the
> correct entries.  Rather than having plainly bogus entries in there,
> let's have either nothing or the right entries.

I couldn't possibly disagree with that...

cheers, Joe

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

On Thu 2009-08-06 14:15:36, Erik Mouw wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 13:31:04 +0200
> Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:
> 
> > Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.
> > 
> > Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer
> > on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be
> > increased to lkml levels?
> 
> Spammers indeed stand no chance on lakml, but that was not the main
> reason to make it a closed list.
> 
> Max mail size is on 100k. That should be enough, patches larger
> than that should have been broken up anyway. I just increased the

Well, especialy patches for testing/not ready for submission are
sometimes bigger, but...

> number of people in the CC list from 15 to 30 so that should resolve
> most of the recipients issues. When the CC list gets larger than that,
> it's usually a flamewar anyway ;-)

Thanks!
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

On Thu 2009-08-06 06:02:10, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:40 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:59:01PM +0530, David John wrote:
> > > I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is
> > > difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say,
> > > a simple bug report.
> > If only it were as simple as that.
> []
> > I'm not willing to spend vast sums of money in
> > the legal domain to sort this issue out.
> > Neither am I willing to take a chance.
> 
> What chances are those?
> 
> > And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any
> > of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside
> > the EU were to run the list.  And people would have to independently
> > subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber
> > list outside the EU.
> 
> I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> 
> Perhaps you overestimate the value of the arm subscriber database
> as well as the work involved to subscribe to a list.
> 
> Adding a "click this to subscribe to the new list" to the mailing
> list trailer would work reasonably well.

Actually, "subscribing" new vger list as a receiver for lakml should
do the trick... for even easier migration.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

> Let's not forget - as Pavel has yet again proven - if you have a
> problem with a mailing list, who do you talk to.  All the list
> admins?  Of course not!  You email rmk and/or mailing lists
> directly.

If you want me to contact mailing list admins privately, I guess you
should add to the FAQ you post monthly. (And you need to drop the
"lets unsubscribe him when he complains" attitude).
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pavel Machek]

> > Perhaps this patch is more palatable.  It's certainly shorter.
> > 
> > It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section
> > SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST).  By the way, another section you
> > maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a
> > pattern entry nor a mailing list entry.  Should it?
> 
> I recently had to remove those pattern entries because they were plainly
> wrong (thanks to those who didn't CC anyone in the ARM community with
> those patches.)  

Hehe, and now ask yourself why lakml list was not CCed. Aha, its
ethics document periodicaly posted explicitely does not permit
CCing, and CCing lakml for non-subscribers is impossible.

So, if you want to receive such information, you should either

1) monitor lkml

2) open up lakml

3) subscribe to linux-arm@vger, and slowly redirect trafic there.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

Resend for Andrew Morton

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 16:03 +0100, Ben Dooks wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> > > There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> > > moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> > > have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> > > as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> > > having issues.  I don't know.
> > 
> > Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
> > linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.
> 
> I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries
> with linux-arm@vger.kernel.org list.

Perhaps this patch is more palatable.  It's certainly shorter.

It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section
SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST).  By the way, another section you
maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a
pattern entry nor a mailing list entry.  Should it?

Signed-off-by: Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>

diff --git a/MAINTAINERS b/MAINTAINERS
index b1114cf..04c13c5 100644
--- a/MAINTAINERS
+++ b/MAINTAINERS
@@ -498,9 +498,11 @@ F:	arch/arm/include/asm/floppy.h
 ARM PORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/
+F:	drivers/*/arm/
 
 ARM PRIMECELL MMCI PL180/1 DRIVER
 S:	Orphan
@@ -2047,6 +2049,7 @@ FREESCALE IMX / MXC FRAMEBUFFER DRIVER
 M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
 L:	linux-fbdev-devel@lists.sourceforge.net (moderated for non-subscribers)
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/plat-mxc/include/mach/imxfb.h
 F:	drivers/video/imxfb.c
@@ -2616,6 +2619,8 @@ F:	drivers/dma/iop-adma.c
 
 INTEL IXP4XX QMGR, NPE, ETHERNET and HSS SUPPORT
 M:	Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl>
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx/include/mach/qmgr.h
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx/include/mach/npe.h
@@ -4093,6 +4098,7 @@ PXA2xx/PXA3xx SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/
 F:	drivers/pcmcia/pxa2xx*
@@ -4548,6 +4554,7 @@ SHARP LH SUPPORT (LH7952X & LH7A40X)
 M:	Marc Singer <elf@buici.com>
 W:	http://projects.buici.com/arm
 L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 S:	Maintained
 F:	Documentation/arm/Sharp-LH/ADC-LH7-Touchscreen
 F:	arch/arm/mach-lh7a40x/
@@ -4570,6 +4577,8 @@ S:	Supported
 SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST)
 P:	Ben Dooks
 M:	Vincent Sanders <support@simtec.co.uk>
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org
 W:	http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB2410ITX/
 S:	Supported
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2410/

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Joe Perches <joe@perches.com> writes:

>  INTEL IXP4XX QMGR, NPE, ETHERNET and HSS SUPPORT
>  M:	Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl>
> +L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
> +L:	linux-arm@vger.kernel.org

Looks fair for me.
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pavel Machek]

On Mon 2009-08-10 16:49:07, Joe Perches wrote:
> Resend for Andrew Morton
> 
> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 16:03 +0100, Ben Dooks wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:33 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:10AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > > > I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.
> > > > There is already a vger based ARM list.  I see no signs of people
> > > > moving over to it.  I summise that is because most people don't
> > > > have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists
> > > > as they stand.  Could it be that it's only a minority who are
> > > > having issues.  I don't know.
> > > 
> > > Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
> > > linux-arm@vger.kernel.org mailing list.
> > 
> > I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries
> > with linux-arm@vger.kernel.org list.
> 
> Perhaps this patch is more palatable.  It's certainly shorter.
> 
> It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section
> SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST).  By the way, another section you
> maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a
> pattern entry nor a mailing list entry.  Should it?
> 
> Signed-off-by: Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>

I like that. Open lists are useful.
								Pavel

-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 01:55:20PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> I like that. Open lists are useful.

However, that is immaterial if no one is subscribed to it - in
which case it acts as a black hole and a source of frustration
for people.

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pekka Enberg]

Hi Russell,

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Russell King - ARM
Linux<linux@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote:
> I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA
for contributors who send out patches to multiple subsystems. However,
if you (and the rest of the arm people) don't see the value of opening
the list up, why do you expect people to rush to support Joe's patch?
It's you who is losing out on contributors and if you don't see that
(or don't agree), you probably should keep the list subscriber-only,
no?

                        Pekka

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:17:54PM +0300, Pekka Enberg wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Russell King - ARM
> Linux<linux@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote:
> > I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> > could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> > they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.
> 
> I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA

Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
(although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
a function of how buggy mailman is.)

> for contributors who send out patches to multiple subsystems. However,
> if you (and the rest of the arm people) don't see the value of opening
> the list up, why do you expect people to rush to support Joe's patch?
> It's you who is losing out on contributors and if you don't see that
> (or don't agree), you probably should keep the list subscriber-only,
> no?

Rather than twisting what I said "if you don't see the value why do you
expect people to rush..." what I actually said is precisely the opposite
- I don't see people rushing to support Joe's patch - that has a
completely different meaning.  I also don't see lots of people saying
"yes we should move over to vger".

The linux-arm at vger list has been published here a couple of times
and despite giving people a free choice, there's been very little
movement over to it.  In my opinion, that speaks _volumes_.  Maybe
that's because people prefer the mailman web interface for subscription,
Just a guess judging from the help I used to give people with the 1990s
majordomo.

Moreover, vger is trying to replicate the setup we had back in the
early 90s, which was found to be sub-optimal - we split the lists
into kernel stuff, userspace stuff and toolchain stuff to reduce the
amount of ignored postings - so that people specialising in ARM
userspace didn't have to wade through all the (vastly more) kernel
discussions.  Unfortunately, the new setup at vger would mean re-
combining the lists.  Maybe that's another factor that people don't
like?  Don't know.

Maybe people don't like that we're having the vger list forced upon us
by a minority rather than the community coming to its own decision on
the subject?  Again, just a theory.

There is also a feeling from some people in this community (they've told
me themselves in private) that certain mainline folk have been actively
trying to undermine the ARM community - given the recent "discussions"
(more like flames) over things like the device tree, the HTC stuff, etc.
Given that, how do you think having another mailing list forced upon us
would be received?

I don't know what the reasons are, but unless there is gets proper
concensus and agreement, having yet another list just in the name of
"openness" is just going to create yet more problems by fragmenting
the community.

The other relevent point here is that these mailing lists provide me with
a _good_ platform for long-term testing of ARM kernels.  These lists run
on an ARM machine.  Take that away, and the amount of long-term testing
drops back to whatever happens in the embedded developer space... which
I suspect is almost nil.  (Show me an embedded developer who, as part
of their testing, keeps the board running without reboot under varying
amounts of load for anything approaching or exceeding several months.)

Now, given that I've proved people wrong time and time again on the way
we run these mailing lists (eg, the "none of the posts which get held
for moderation actually get through" and I've subsequently provided
people with links to their disputed posts in the archive, including
the one which Pavel started this thread about _after_ that message was
allowed through) (a) is having this long and extensive discussion really
necessary and (b) is it actually being productive or is it just wasting
peoples time (consider that I've spent over an hour putting this reply
together... and I'm sure it's going to get picked through, which'll
add yet more replies which I'll spend yet more time reading and replying
to)?

I have a theory.  People only complain about moderated mailing lists
because they get messages telling them that their message has been
caught.  If moderated mailing lists didn't send back that message,
(and the queue was processed in a timely manner) people would not
complain one bit.  So it is probably far better if I bend mailman
such that it doesn't send out moderation messages - certainly to
anyone called Pavel. ;)

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > > I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> > > could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> > > they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.
> > 
> > I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA
> 
> Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> a function of how buggy mailman is.)

FAQ still states that cc-ing between l-k and lakml is
unwelcome. Reason why people prefer open lists is that you can cc both
l-k and the other relevant list.

> Moreover, vger is trying to replicate the setup we had back in the
> early 90s, which was found to be sub-optimal - we split the lists
> into kernel stuff, userspace stuff and toolchain stuff to reduce the
> amount of ignored postings - so that people specialising in ARM
> userspace didn't have to wade through all the (vastly more) kernel
> discussions.  Unfortunately, the new setup at vger would mean re-
> combining the lists.  Maybe that's another factor that people don't
> like?  Don't know.

I'd say that linux-arm@vger._kernel_.org is meant for kernel
discussion, so no, it is not trying to mix kernel&userspace.

> I have a theory.  People only complain about moderated mailing lists
> because they get messages telling them that their message has been
> caught.  If moderated mailing lists didn't send back that message,
> (and the queue was processed in a timely manner) people would not
> complain one bit.  So it is probably far better if I bend mailman
> such that it doesn't send out moderation messages - certainly to
> anyone called Pavel. ;)

Yes, those messages are indeed annoying.

If you can indeed process queue in timely manner, and remove FAQ entry
about not cc-ing between open lists and lakml, then yes, that would
probably be good-enough emulation of open list.
								Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[David Miller]

From: Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:48:38 +0100

> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 01:55:20PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
>> I like that. Open lists are useful.
> 
> However, that is immaterial if no one is subscribed to it - in
> which case it acts as a black hole and a source of frustration
> for people.

! wc -l /opt/Majordomo/lists/linux-arm
284 /opt/Majordomo/lists/linux-arm
!

> I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Oh, I forgot, the problem is that "you're" not subscribed and the ARM
world revolves around "you".

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[David Miller]

From: Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:25:02 +0100

> Moreover, vger is trying to replicate the setup we had back in the
> early 90s, which was found to be sub-optimal - we split the lists
> into kernel stuff, userspace stuff and toolchain stuff to reduce the
> amount of ignored postings - so that people specialising in ARM
> userspace didn't have to wade through all the (vastly more) kernel
> discussions.  Unfortunately, the new setup at vger would mean re-
> combining the lists.

This is a scarecrow.

Nobody has opposed setting up a series of ARM lists on vger
for development, if that is what works best.

One simply has to ask me to create them.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:00:30AM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > > > I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> > > > could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> > > > they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.
> > > 
> > > I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA
> > 
> > Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> > lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> > (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> > contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> > giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> > a function of how buggy mailman is.)
> 
> FAQ still states that cc-ing between l-k and lakml is
> unwelcome. Reason why people prefer open lists is that you can cc both
> l-k and the other relevant list.

Yes, because the FAQ tends to be out of date unless someone either
sends me a patch or I actually read it and correct things in there.
The FAQ is more or less something I never read, but end up looking
after.

I'll see about updating it at some point.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Catalin Marinas]

On Wed, 2009-08-12 at 20:48 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 01:55:20PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > I like that. Open lists are useful.
> 
> However, that is immaterial if no one is subscribed to it - in
> which case it acts as a black hole and a source of frustration
> for people.

I've been subscribed to linux-arm@vger since its creation in case anyone
was posting (though it seems that technically wasn't possible) and I'm
happy to reply to questions there.

> I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Personally, I'm more in favour of open lists as I don't see any
advantage in having a moderated one. As for linux-arm@vger, if people
(cross-)post ARM specific patches and the ARM gatekeeper is not
subscribed, they could be lost unless other subscribers forward them to
you or the lak list (or your patch system).

An option would be to subscribe lak to linux-arm@vger so that messages
are directed to lak as well and maybe add an exception to not moderate
those coming via linux-arm@vger.

Anyway, if you (as gatekeeper) do not want to have anything to do with
the linux-arm@vger list (IOW "moderated list" zealot ;-)) I don't see
much point in updating the "ARM PORT" entry in the MAINTAINERS.

For the other ARM MAINTAINERS entries (e.g. specific boards), it is up
to the corresponding maintainers to add whatever lists they want, which
may include linux-arm@vger.

-- 
Catalin

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:04:37AM +0100, Catalin Marinas wrote:
> For the other ARM MAINTAINERS entries (e.g. specific boards), it is up
> to the corresponding maintainers to add whatever lists they want, which
> may include linux-arm@vger.

Just to be clear (and my final email tonight) I don't have a problem
with that, provided the corresponding maintainers do agree (and
therefore provide their ack).

But to do it as a blanket "add linux-arm@vger to everything with
linux-arm-kernel" is wrong.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Marek Vasut]

Dne Čt 13. srpna 2009 01:22:20 Russell King - ARM Linux napsal(a):
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:04:37AM +0100, Catalin Marinas wrote:
> > For the other ARM MAINTAINERS entries (e.g. specific boards), it is up
> > to the corresponding maintainers to add whatever lists they want, which
> > may include linux-arm@vger.
>
> Just to be clear (and my final email tonight) I don't have a problem
> with that, provided the corresponding maintainers do agree (and
> therefore provide their ack).
>
> But to do it as a blanket "add linux-arm@vger to everything with
> linux-arm-kernel" is wrong.

Hi,

what about setting this ML so it forwards all emails (or all that dont have 
vger in CC/To) to vger ? And maybe then broadcasting the list of people 
subscribed to this ML that they should subscribe to vger ?

Though it might be a lot of traffic.

Cheers!
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> List admin: http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel
> FAQ:        http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/faq.php
> Etiquette:  http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/etiquette.php

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Wed, 2009-08-12 at 22:25 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:17:54PM +0300, Pekka Enberg wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Russell King - ARM
> > Linux<linux@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote:
> > > I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> > > could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> > > they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.
> > 
> > I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA
> 
> Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Umm.  (and I'd cc'd you about this privately _last week_)

cheers, Joe

---------------

Your request to the Linux-arm-kernel mailing list

    Posting of your message titled "[PATCH] MAINTAINERS - arm
patterns?"

has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
following reason for rejecting your request:

"Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list. You have
to subscribe before you're allowed to post. "

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 06:18:52PM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-08-12 at 22:25 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:17:54PM +0300, Pekka Enberg wrote:
> > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Russell King - ARM
> > > Linux<linux@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote:
> > > > I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which
> > > > could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe
> > > > they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.
> > > 
> > > I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA
> > 
> > Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> > lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> > (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> > contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> > giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> > a function of how buggy mailman is.)
> 
> Umm.  (and I'd cc'd you about this privately _last week_)

1. I have no trace of that.  Really.
2. Did you send it to only me or did also copy Erik?

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 353 bytes --]

On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 08:38 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 06:18:52PM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > Umm.  (and I'd cc'd you about this privately _last week_)
> 1. I have no trace of that.  Really.
> 2. Did you send it to only me or did also copy Erik?

Just to you.  It could have been auto spam filtered.

cheers, Joe

[-- Attachment #2: Attached message - Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections --]
[-- Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2099 bytes --]

From: Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>
To: Russell King <rmk+lkml@arm.linux.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 10:31:24 -0700
Message-ID: <1249579883.3467.32.camel@Joe-Laptop.home>

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 17:40 +0100, Russell King wrote:
> > It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section
> > SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST).  By the way, another section you
> > maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a
> > pattern entry nor a mailing list entry.  Should it?
> 
> I recently had to remove those pattern entries because they were plainly
> wrong (thanks to those who didn't CC anyone in the ARM community with
> those patches.)  EB110ATX != EBSA110.  See ce53895.

I forgot, I did cc the "arm community".
The message was bounced back to me.

cheers, Joe

---------------

Your request to the Linux-arm-kernel mailing list

    Posting of your message titled "[PATCH] MAINTAINERS - arm
patterns?"

has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
following reason for rejecting your request:

"Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list. You have
to subscribe before you're allowed to post. "

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Alan Cox]

O> Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you
are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why
not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which
will free up your time ?

> There is also a feeling from some people in this community (they've told
> me themselves in private) that certain mainline folk have been actively
> trying to undermine the ARM community - given the recent "discussions"
> (more like flames) over things like the device tree, the HTC stuff, etc.

Well if you will hide in your own cupboard under the stairs nobody is
going to understand the ARM folks needs. You don't need malice to account
for that.

> (and the queue was processed in a timely manner) people would not
> complain one bit.  So it is probably far better if I bend mailman

No they'd cc the ARM list and wonder why they were being ignored. That
would not really be progress. Well actually if they simply cc'd that list
and posted to linux-arm, then sent patches directly since nobody
complained maybe it would  ;)

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:35:11AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> O> Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> > lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> > (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> > contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> > giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> > a function of how buggy mailman is.)
> 
> Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you
> are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why
> not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which
> will free up your time ?

As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they
should talk to me about ARM mailing lists.  Proven, multiple times by
multiple people.

Fact: These lists have _TWO_ admins.  Fact: Everyone only talks to me
about problems with these lists.  Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Moving them to vger isn't going to change that.  The only effect that
it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered
by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should
be talking to.

Humans are, at the end of the day, bone idle lazy creatures.

> > There is also a feeling from some people in this community (they've told
> > me themselves in private) that certain mainline folk have been actively
> > trying to undermine the ARM community - given the recent "discussions"
> > (more like flames) over things like the device tree, the HTC stuff, etc.
> 
> Well if you will hide in your own cupboard under the stairs nobody is
> going to understand the ARM folks needs. You don't need malice to account
> for that.

That's not really fair Alan.

The issue is not about hiding.  I believe it's about jealousness and
resentment.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Alan Cox]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 10:47:36 +0100
Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:35:11AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > O> Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> > > lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> > > (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> > > contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> > > giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> > > a function of how buggy mailman is.)
> > 
> > Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you
> > are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why
> > not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which
> > will free up your time ?
> 
> As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they
> should talk to me about ARM mailing lists.  Proven, multiple times by
> multiple people.

You are missing the point entirely. Actually with your comment you are
now missing two points

1. The point in the email that you ignored: Nobody cared whether mailman
is buggy or the list admins are not doing their job or the list is badly
configured. They just care it doesn't let them easily cc stuff over. In
reality they probably blame the admins regardless of the real cause.

2. People talk to you on the ARM list because you don't seem to respond
on the vger arm list ?

> Moving them to vger isn't going to change that.  The only effect that
> it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered
> by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should
> be talking to.

Reality check. A mailing list name such as "linux-arm" is a tag attached
to an object, its a handle nothing more. Moving the object behind that
handle to vger as a vger linux-arm list doesn't change things in the way
you wish to pretend.

> > Well if you will hide in your own cupboard under the stairs nobody is
> > going to understand the ARM folks needs. You don't need malice to account
> > for that.
> 
> That's not really fair Alan.
> 
> The issue is not about hiding.  I believe it's about jealousness and
> resentment.

Most folks working on the kernel are far too busy to spend their time on
that, and I'm curious how you could even arrive at such a ludicrous
conclusion - what is the motiviation of this evil plot you see ?

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:54:26AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 10:47:36 +0100
> Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:35:11AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > O> Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> > > > lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> > > > (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> > > > contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> > > > giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> > > > a function of how buggy mailman is.)
> > > 
> > > Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you
> > > are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why
> > > not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which
> > > will free up your time ?
> > 
> > As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they
> > should talk to me about ARM mailing lists.  Proven, multiple times by
> > multiple people.
> 
> You are missing the point entirely. Actually with your comment you are
> now missing two points
> 
> 1. The point in the email that you ignored: Nobody cared whether mailman
> is buggy or the list admins are not doing their job or the list is badly
> configured. They just care it doesn't let them easily cc stuff over. In
> reality they probably blame the admins regardless of the real cause.
> 
> 2. People talk to you on the ARM list because you don't seem to respond
> on the vger arm list ?

You've totally missed the point.

When people have a problem with the existing lists, they talk to me and
only me about it.  I'm *not* talking about normal list traffic.

What I'm saying is that even if we did move over to vger, people would
NOT talk to davem about problems.  Their first stop reaction would be
to talk to me.

> > Moving them to vger isn't going to change that.  The only effect that
> > it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered
> > by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should
> > be talking to.
> 
> Reality check. A mailing list name such as "linux-arm" is a tag attached
> to an object, its a handle nothing more. Moving the object behind that
> handle to vger as a vger linux-arm list doesn't change things in the way
> you wish to pretend.

Correction - it does.  I can only assume that this is a continuation of
your above misunderstanding.

> Most folks working on the kernel are far too busy to spend their time on
> that, and I'm curious how you could even arrive at such a ludicrous
> conclusion - what is the motiviation of this evil plot you see ?

>From what I've seen, that is also far from reality.  Some kernel people
seem to have ample spare time to plot like this.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pekka Enberg]

Hi Russell,

On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 10:47 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they
> should talk to me about ARM mailing lists.  Proven, multiple times by
> multiple people.
> 
> Fact: These lists have _TWO_ admins.  Fact: Everyone only talks to me
> about problems with these lists.  Fact: they do not copy Erik.
>
> Moving them to vger isn't going to change that.  The only effect that
> it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered
> by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should
> be talking to.
> 
> Humans are, at the end of the day, bone idle lazy creatures.

Hey, I couldn't care less on what list ARM development happens on. All I
wanted to do is point out that the way you handle your mailing list is a
PITA for contributors that would like to send occasional ARM patches but
don't want to invest the energy to subscribe to your list. And yes, even
if it's a moderated list, not a subscriber-only list, it's a PITA all
the same.

I really have no interest in arguing about it because it's the ARM
community that's losing out, not me. (Or maybe you're just not
interested in minor contributors, dunno.)

			Pekka

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Alan Cox]

> > 2. People talk to you on the ARM list because you don't seem to respond
> > on the vger arm list ?
> 
> You've totally missed the point.

You forgot the explanation that goes with the claim above ?


> When people have a problem with the existing lists, they talk to me and
> only me about it.  I'm *not* talking about normal list traffic.

Thats a pity because everyone else is.

> What I'm saying is that even if we did move over to vger, people would
> NOT talk to davem about problems.  Their first stop reaction would be
> to talk to me.

I see no supporting evidence

> > > Moving them to vger isn't going to change that.  The only effect that
> > > it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered
> > > by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should
> > > be talking to.
> > 
> > Reality check. A mailing list name such as "linux-arm" is a tag attached
> > to an object, its a handle nothing more. Moving the object behind that
> > handle to vger as a vger linux-arm list doesn't change things in the way
> > you wish to pretend.
> 
> Correction - it does.  I can only assume that this is a continuation of
> your above misunderstanding.

Evidence, data points ? Or are you in pantomime mode ("oh yes it does, oh
no it doesn't")

> seem to have ample spare time to plot like this.

Still in pantomime mode "He's behind you".

Sorry Russell I really can't take you seriously any more

Alan

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 10:47 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> These lists have _TWO_ admins.  Fact: Everyone only talks to me
> about problems with these lists.  Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Erik isn't listed in MAINTAINERS.  You are.
Erik doesn't post much to lkml.  You do.

> Humans are, at the end of the day, bone idle lazy creatures.

Which is why we invent tools to work for us.

Humans tend to reuse and improve the tools that work best.
Your ARM based mail tool has caused some to do more work
than they would like, so they would like to use a better
tool.

> I believe it's about jealousness and resentment.

You use high emotion words unnecessarily.

I believe it's about the very human desire to be lazy.

I believe very few care very much if vger.kernel.org or
arm.linux.org.uk is the list server.  I don't.  I just
want my email to get through.

And I still don't want to subscribe.

If you want to improve ARM, I think you and Erik should
improve your mail tool chest.  Perhaps copy the spam filter
mechanisms used by vger.  It's not a secret how it's done.

Reduce the probability of forwarding spam, open the list,
remove "(subscribers-only)" from the ARM MAINTAINERS entries
and I'd be good-to-go.

cheers, Joe

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 03:16:33AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 10:47 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > These lists have _TWO_ admins.  Fact: Everyone only talks to me
> > about problems with these lists.  Fact: they do not copy Erik.
> 
> Erik isn't listed in MAINTAINERS.  You are.
> Erik doesn't post much to lkml.  You do.

Is Matti, who also looks after vger, in MAINTAINERS ?

Given your position above, don't you think he should be, so that when
people have a problem with LKML they can email him?

I think you're not understanding me (Alan seems to have made the same
mistake).  Please note that I was talking about the _admin_ side not
the actual useful ARM traffic side.

> > Humans are, at the end of the day, bone idle lazy creatures.
> 
> Which is why we invent tools to work for us.
> 
> Humans tend to reuse and improve the tools that work best.
> Your ARM based mail tool has caused some to do more work
> than they would like, so they would like to use a better
> tool.

So instead you'd like me to do more work by having to service peoples
requests about how to subscribe and unsubscribe from a mailing list
which I don't run?

I invented a tool for that.  It's called "running my own mailing list."

> I believe very few care very much if vger.kernel.org or
> arm.linux.org.uk is the list server.  I don't.  I just
> want my email to get through.
> 
> And I still don't want to subscribe.

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

This one was:
http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090806.142334.73be8efd.en.html

These (subsequent) ones weren't:
http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090806.151424.0228a1eb.en.html
http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090806.161848.fb390ccd.en.html
http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090806.165331.aeb0c29b.en.html
http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090810.234907.a080c816.en.html
http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090813.011852.5ebd9da5.en.html
http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/lurker/message/20090813.085937.87e2f189.en.html

> Reduce the probability of forwarding spam, open the list,
> remove "(subscribers-only)" from the ARM MAINTAINERS entries
> and I'd be good-to-go.

I feel we're covering old ground here (see the earlier bits of this thread.)

[PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Change ARM "subscriber-only" lists to "moderated for non-subscribers"

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 03:16:33AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 10:47 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > These lists have _TWO_ admins.  Fact: Everyone only talks to me
> > > about problems with these lists.  Fact: they do not copy Erik.
> > 
> > Erik isn't listed in MAINTAINERS.  You are.
> > Erik doesn't post much to lkml.  You do.
> 
> Is Matti, who also looks after vger, in MAINTAINERS ?

Note the original title and cc list to this thread.

> Given your position above, don't you think he should be, so that when
> people have a problem with LKML they can email him?

You should ask Dave how often he gets individual mail about
some vger problem.  I don't know nor care.

> > Humans tend to reuse and improve the tools that work best.
> > Your ARM based mail tool has caused some to do more work
> > than they would like, so they would like to use a better
> > tool.
> 
> So instead you'd like me to do more work by having to service peoples
> requests about how to subscribe and unsubscribe from a mailing list
> which I don't run?

Frankly, yes.  _I_ want to do less work.  You can do all the work
you like or you can be lazy.

> I invented a tool for that.  It's called "running my own mailing list."

There's pleasure in making your own tools.

Just don't expect others to not complain about the
burrs they get when they have to use the tools you
give them.

> > I believe very few care very much if vger.kernel.org or
> > arm.linux.org.uk is the list server.  I don't.  I just
> > want my email to get through.
> > 
> > And I still don't want to subscribe.
> 
> And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

I don't care.  I don't read arm.linux.org.uk.

How about you apply this?

scripts/get_maintainer.pl by default will not output
"subscriber-only" list addresses.

cheers, Joe

diff --git a/MAINTAINERS b/MAINTAINERS
index b1114cf..dd8c14a 100644
--- a/MAINTAINERS
+++ b/MAINTAINERS
@@ -497,7 +497,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/include/asm/floppy.h
 
 ARM PORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/
@@ -508,51 +508,51 @@ F:	drivers/mmc/host/mmci.*
 
 ARM/ADI ROADRUNNER MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ixp23xx/include/mach/
 
 ARM/ADS SPHERE MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/AFEB9260 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Sergey Lapin <slapin@ossfans.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/AJECO 1ARM MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/ATMEL AT91RM9200 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Andrew Victor <linux@maxim.org.za>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://maxim.org.za/at91_26.html
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EP93XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EDB9315A MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CLKDEV SUPPORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 F:	arch/arm/common/clkdev.c
 F:	arch/arm/include/asm/clkdev.h
 
 ARM/COMPULAB CM-X270/EM-X270 and CM-X300 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Mike Rapoport <mike@compulab.co.il>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CORGI MACHINE SUPPORT
@@ -561,14 +561,14 @@ S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/CORTINA SYSTEMS GEMINI ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Paulius Zaleckas <paulius.zaleckas@teltonika.lt>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 T:	git git://gitorious.org/linux-gemini/mainline.git
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-gemini/
 
 ARM/EBSA110 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-ebsa110/
@@ -586,13 +586,13 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/ezx.c
 
 ARM/FARADAY FA526 PORT
 M:	Paulius Zaleckas <paulius.zaleckas@teltonika.lt>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mm/*-fa*
 
 ARM/FOOTBRIDGE ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/include/asm/hardware/dec21285.h
@@ -600,17 +600,17 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-footbridge/
 
 ARM/FREESCALE IMX / MXC ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/GLOMATION GESBC9312SX MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/GUMSTIX MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Steve Sakoman <sakoman@gmail.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/H4700 (HP IPAQ HX4700) MACHINE SUPPORT
@@ -630,55 +630,55 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-sa1100/include/mach/jornada720.h
 ARM/INTEL IOP32X ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IOP33X ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IOP13XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IQ81342EX MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/INTEL IXP2000 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/INTEL IXDP2850 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/INTEL IXP23XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/INTEL XSC3 (MANZANO) ARM CORE
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
 M:	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Supported
 
 ARM/IP FABRICS DOUBLE ESPRESSO MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/LOGICPD PXA270 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/MAGICIAN MACHINE SUPPORT
@@ -687,7 +687,7 @@ S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/MIOA701 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Robert Jarzmik <robert.jarzmik@free.fr>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/mioa701.c
 S:	Maintained
 
@@ -728,18 +728,18 @@ S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/PT DIGITAL BOARD PORT
 M:	Stefan Eletzhofer <stefan.eletzhofer@eletztrick.de>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/RADISYS ENP2611 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/RISCPC ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/common/time-acorn.c
@@ -758,7 +758,7 @@ S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/SAMSUNG ARM ARCHITECTURES
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/plat-s3c/
@@ -766,65 +766,65 @@ F:	arch/arm/plat-s3c24xx/
 
 ARM/S3C2410 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2410/
 
 ARM/S3C2440 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2440/
 
 ARM/S3C2442 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2442/
 
 ARM/S3C2443 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2443/
 
 ARM/S3C6400 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6400/
 
 ARM/S3C6410 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6410/
 
 ARM/TECHNOLOGIC SYSTEMS TS7250 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/THECUS N2100 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <kernel@wantstofly.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/NUVOTON W90X900 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Wan ZongShun <mcuos.com@gmail.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.mcuos.com
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/VFP SUPPORT
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/vfp/
@@ -923,7 +923,7 @@ F:	include/linux/atm*
 
 ATMEL AT91 MCI DRIVER
 M:	Nicolas Ferre <nicolas.ferre@atmel.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.atmel.com/products/AT91/
 W:	http://www.at91.com/
 S:	Maintained
@@ -1501,7 +1501,7 @@ F:	drivers/infiniband/hw/cxgb3/
 
 CYBERPRO FB DRIVER
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	drivers/video/cyber2000fb.*
@@ -2046,7 +2046,7 @@ F:	drivers/i2c/busses/i2c-cpm.c
 FREESCALE IMX / MXC FRAMEBUFFER DRIVER
 M:	Sascha Hauer <kernel@pengutronix.de>
 L:	linux-fbdev-devel@lists.sourceforge.net (moderated for non-subscribers)
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/plat-mxc/include/mach/imxfb.h
 F:	drivers/video/imxfb.c
@@ -3390,7 +3390,7 @@ F:	include/linux/meye.h
 
 MOTOROLA IMX MMC/SD HOST CONTROLLER INTERFACE DRIVER
 M:	Pavel Pisa <ppisa@pikron.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 F:	drivers/mmc/host/imxmmc.*
 
@@ -4092,7 +4092,7 @@ F:	drivers/media/video/pvrusb2/
 PXA2xx/PXA3xx SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
 M:	Russell King <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/
 F:	drivers/pcmcia/pxa2xx*
@@ -4105,13 +4105,13 @@ F:	sound/soc/pxa
 PXA168 SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
 M:	Jason Chagas <jason.chagas@marvell.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
 S:	Maintained
 
 PXA910 SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <eric.y.miao@gmail.com>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
 S:	Maintained
 
@@ -4352,7 +4352,7 @@ F:	net/iucv/
 
 S3C24XX SD/MMC Driver
 M:	Ben Dooks <ben-linux@fluff.org>
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Supported
 F:	drivers/mmc/host/s3cmci.*
 
@@ -4547,7 +4547,7 @@ F:	drivers/misc/sgi-xp/
 SHARP LH SUPPORT (LH7952X & LH7A40X)
 M:	Marc Singer <elf@buici.com>
 W:	http://projects.buici.com/arm
-L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk	(subscribers-only)
+L:	linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk (moderated for non-subscribers)
 S:	Maintained
 F:	Documentation/arm/Sharp-LH/ADC-LH7-Touchscreen
 F:	arch/arm/mach-lh7a40x/

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 156 bytes --]

On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Umm... (while chuckling)



[-- Attachment #2: Attached message - Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval --]
[-- Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2417 bytes --]

From: linux-arm-kernel-bounces@lists.arm.linux.org.uk
To: joe@perches.com
Subject: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:03:15 +0100
Message-ID: <mailman.3824.1250161395.31043.linux-arm-kernel@lists.arm.linux.org.uk>

Your mail to 'Linux-arm-kernel' with the subject

    [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Change ARM "subscriber-only" lists to
"moderated for non-subscribers"

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

    The message headers matched a filter rule

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:

    http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/confirm/linux-arm-kernel/9be7b4c483328e6b243001b1c1834654c334e89b

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:08:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?
> 
> Umm... (while chuckling)

Yes.  The reason being is you removed the 'Re:' from the subject
line but still pressed "reply".

We have an etiquette item which discourages that - we have people
who like to use the "reply" button to start a completely new and
unrelated topic of conversation.  So the mailing list catches this
behaviour and holds it for moderation, so we don't end up with
irrelevent sub-threads tagged on to existing threads in the archives
(or even in our threaded mail readers.)

So, the list _correctly_ holds such attempts so that someone can
see whether this really is the case, and ask the person to re-post
without burying their message in the middle of an existing thread,
or if it is relevant, approve it.  You can't deduce this using rules
alone.  It *requires* human intervention.

So chuckle all you want.  This is one of the things we _do_ get right
to improve the overall quality for existing subscribers, and make the
archives more searchable.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 12:54 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:08:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?
> > Umm... (while chuckling)
> So chuckle all you want.  This is one of the things we _do_ get right

Make all the work for yourselves you desire.
I don't care how hard you work.

I only care about your latency to my patches,
which I noticed you didn't answer. 

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 05:16:01AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 12:54 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:08:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > > And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?
> > > Umm... (while chuckling)
> > So chuckle all you want.  This is one of the things we _do_ get right
> 
> Make all the work for yourselves you desire.
> I don't care how hard you work.
> 
> I only care about your latency to my patches,
> which I noticed you didn't answer. 

Could that be because I'm being distracted by this thread, rather than
doing the real productive work of looking at informed mailings?

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Change ARM "subscriber-only" lists to "moderated for non-subscribers"

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:01:55AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> I don't care.  I don't read arm.linux.org.uk.
> 
> How about you apply this?
> 
> scripts/get_maintainer.pl by default will not output
> "subscriber-only" list addresses.

I don't know about this patch.  Personally, I'm fine with it.  But is
anyone else who deals with the MAINTAINERS file?  Shrug.  How can I
say.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Catalin Marinas]

On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 12:54 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:08:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?
> > 
> > Umm... (while chuckling)
> 
> Yes.  The reason being is you removed the 'Re:' from the subject
> line but still pressed "reply".

I think this rule should be changed to at least allow [PATCH] subjects.
This helps when posting a series of patches as replies to a cover mail
(otherwise I either post them as unrelated or hope that Erik isn't on
holiday for a few weeks :-)).

BTW, do you have any statistics on how many posts you reject because of
this rule?

-- 
Catalin

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pavel Machek]

On Thu 2009-08-13 12:54:44, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:08:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?
> > 
> > Umm... (while chuckling)
> 
> Yes.  The reason being is you removed the 'Re:' from the subject
> line but still pressed "reply".

I don't think that's valid reason to reject mail.

> We have an etiquette item which discourages that - we have people
> who like to use the "reply" button to start a completely new and

Unfortunately, people writing from lkml do not know about that
"etiquette" item, and it directly interferes with sending patch series.

> So chuckle all you want.  This is one of the things we _do_ get right
> to improve the overall quality for existing subscribers, and make the
> archives more searchable.

No, I do not think you got that right. lkml is more friendly place to
write to, because it does not have strange rules such as this one.
									Pavel

-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Jamie Lokier]

Joe Perches wrote:
> Your request to the Linux-arm-kernel mailing list
> 
>     Posting of your message titled "[PATCH] MAINTAINERS - arm
> patterns?"
> 
> has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
> following reason for rejecting your request:
> 
> "Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list. You have
> to subscribe before you're allowed to post. "

Prior to subscribing, I receive those a couple of times after doing
group-reply to some cross-posted thread on another list, probably
uclinux or lkml.

I didn't bother tracking down who I should complain too, as the
message makes it clear what the policy is, even though it turns out
that isn't policy - how was I to know?

Btw, I had no idea the ARM lists had two maintainers.

- Jamie

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 01:58:03AM +0100, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> Joe Perches wrote:
> > Your request to the Linux-arm-kernel mailing list
> > 
> >     Posting of your message titled "[PATCH] MAINTAINERS - arm
> > patterns?"
> > 
> > has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
> > following reason for rejecting your request:
> > 
> > "Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list. You have
> > to subscribe before you're allowed to post. "
> 
> Prior to subscribing, I receive those a couple of times after doing
> group-reply to some cross-posted thread on another list, probably
> uclinux or lkml.
> 

I used to get these quite often when replying to patches that were sent
to me and cross-posted to the ARM list. Now I only get the 'held for
moderation' mails - the fact I really don't give shit about - not my
loss - but still annoying.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Daniel Mack]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:54:44PM +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:08:34AM -0700, Joe Perches wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:35 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?
> > 
> > Umm... (while chuckling)
> 
> Yes.  The reason being is you removed the 'Re:' from the subject
> line but still pressed "reply".
> 
> We have an etiquette item which discourages that - we have people
> who like to use the "reply" button to start a completely new and
> unrelated topic of conversation.  So the mailing list catches this
> behaviour and holds it for moderation, so we don't end up with
> irrelevent sub-threads tagged on to existing threads in the archives
> (or even in our threaded mail readers.)

One common false positive to this rule is using 'git send-email' with a
message ID as reference. There won't be a 'Re:' in that case.

As just happened to my USB patches some hours ago.

Daniel

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 09:59:19AM +0200, Daniel Mack wrote:
> One common false positive to this rule is using 'git send-email' with a
> message ID as reference. There won't be a 'Re:' in that case.

Yes, and they are HELD FOR MODERATION so that a HUMAN can make a DECISION
on whether to let them through.  We could, alternatively, discard them
outright.  We think that discarding due to a rule matching is unacceptable
though.

These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them.  The
amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to
continue to provide such a service to this community.  When I pull them,
I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.

Someone else can provide and run the mailing lists.

I estimate that this will happen this evening.  Really.  Because I don't
see this thread settling down.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Daniel Silverstone]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:18:08AM +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them.  The
> amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to
> continue to provide such a service to this community.  When I pull them,
> I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.
> Someone else can provide and run the mailing lists.
> I estimate that this will happen this evening.  Really.  Because I don't
> see this thread settling down.

While I appreciate that this is possibly too little too late, for what it's
worth I personally appreciate all the effort you put into the ARM-Linux lists,
and I think it would be a great shame to let them turn into the free-for-all
bunfight which we know will happen if you relinquish the control you hold.

Linux-ARM-Kernel is the only Linux-related mailing list I have left which isn't
running on a host I have to whitelist through all of my spam-checking because
the lists are so spam-friendly that if I try and spam-check them, I get kicked
off for rejecting too much of the mail.

I dread to think what will happen to the quality of the code if the vendors are
left to push whatever they like into the core.  Heck, even the long-term
subsystem or arch/mach maintainers sometimes need a push in the right
direction, and I doubt that such information and impetus would make it to them
if the lists were not well managed.

For my $0.02, I hope you find it in you to be able to continue managing the
lists as they are, and I am sorry for not piping up a bit earlier.

Regards,

Daniel.

-- 
Daniel Silverstone                              http://www.simtec.co.uk/

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Catalin Marinas]

On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 10:18 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them.  The
> amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to
> continue to provide such a service to this community.  When I pull them,
> I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.

Since there weren't many comments in this thread from the core ARM Linux
developers, I find it a bit silly to get upset like this. But, well, in
the end it's your decision and some people may find that moving to a
non-subscribers list is a good thing (and may also save you and Erik
some time). Others may find it was a bad decision, it's hard to say.

> I estimate that this will happen this evening.  Really.  Because I don't
> see this thread settling down.

If you really do this, could you please, at least for couple of weeks,
forward the redirect the current mailing list messages to the
linux-arm@vger list (the quickest option currently)? Alternatively,
simply add an automated reply that people should move to that list?
There are ongoing threads which shouldn't be affected by this row.

Thanks.

-- 
Catalin

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

On Thu 2009-08-06 12:55:53, Russell King wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 01:02:47PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > On Thu 2009-08-06 11:44:21, Russell King wrote:
> > 
> > > It appears the answer to that is no.  People are free to subscribe to
> > > the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me.  However,
> > > it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that
> > > seems to be where the expertise is.
> > > 
> > > Moreover,
> > > 
> > > (a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public
> > > accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.
> > 
> > When I tried asking in private, I was told to stop complaining or loose
> > my mailing list subscription. I'd prefer not to make that mistake again.
> 
> ... in response to your whinging about the "headers matched a filter
> rule" mailman whining.  I had enough of your whinging and whining in
> April, and I've certainly had enough now.  But guess what?  The
> problem eventually got fixed after working out what was going on.

So you are fixing problems with your mailing lists. Cool.

> > > I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging
> > > about?  Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into
> > > /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved?  It
> > > strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your
> > > whinging.
> > 
> > So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who
> > complains?
> 
> No.  My solution would have been to fix the mailing list had you not
> made this a public issue in an offensive way.

When I asked you privately last time, you threatened unsubscribing
me. I don't want to face that again, so yes I prefer public
communication.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

[Pavel Machek]

> > > (c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not*
> > > rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it
> > > doesn't like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than
> > > out-right rejecting it.
> > 
> > For lakml, held for moderation _does_ mean it will return with
> > "posting rejected: no reason given" in few days. I have never seen any
> > other result, and have got perfectly reasonable messages rejected with
> > "no reason". So no, I do not believe there's cooperative human being
> > moderating lakml.
> 
> That's not true. For every message I reject I always explain the
> reason. Most of the time it is "Please subcribe before you're allowed to
> post".

So... is subscribing required for posting or not? You and Russell seem
to be confused on that. If not, when it stopped being required?
Because Russell seems to imply that that requirement was dropped some
time ago.

> > > I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're
> > > whinging about?  Would you prefer that your message was silently
> > > dropped into /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue
> > > being resolved?  It strikes me that _that_ would be a better
> > > solution than all your whinging.
> > 
> > So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who
> > complains?
> 
> No, if you asked us in private, it would already be solved. I just
> increased the max_num_recipients from the default 15 to 30. That should
> solve your problem.

Thanks.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pavel Machek]

On Thu 2009-08-13 10:47:36, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:35:11AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > O> Let me make this clear, yet again.  The lists are *not* subscriber only
> > > lists.  We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever
> > > (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both
> > > contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without
> > > giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is
> > > a function of how buggy mailman is.)
> > 
> > Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you
> > are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why
> > not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which
> > will free up your time ?
> 
> As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they
> should talk to me about ARM mailing lists.  Proven, multiple times by
> multiple people.
> 
> Fact: These lists have _TWO_ admins.  Fact: Everyone only talks to me
> about problems with these lists.  Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Yes, and you wonder? 

Read that outdated FAQ you are posting to the list so often. Fact: it
is From: you, and it mentions a lot of stuff but it does not tell us
that Erik is the list admin.

Moving to vger will actually help here, as "everyone" knows that davem
maintains that.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pavel Machek]

> > Humans tend to reuse and improve the tools that work best.
> > Your ARM based mail tool has caused some to do more work
> > than they would like, so they would like to use a better
> > tool.
> 
> So instead you'd like me to do more work by having to service peoples
> requests about how to subscribe and unsubscribe from a mailing list
> which I don't run?

Why would you want to do that? vger is very functional, and people can
normally subscribe/unsubscribe well enough themselves.

> I invented a tool for that.  It's called "running my own mailing
> list."

So, is it "your" list or is Erik the co-maintainer? And you still
wonder why people write to you?
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Pavel Machek]

On Fri 2009-08-14 10:18:08, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 09:59:19AM +0200, Daniel Mack wrote:
> > One common false positive to this rule is using 'git send-email' with a
> > message ID as reference. There won't be a 'Re:' in that case.
> 
> Yes, and they are HELD FOR MODERATION so that a HUMAN can make a DECISION
> on whether to let them through.  We could, alternatively, discard them
> outright.  We think that discarding due to a rule matching is unacceptable
> though.
> 
> These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them.  The
> amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to
> continue to provide such a service to this community.  When I pull them,
> I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.
> 
> Someone else can provide and run the mailing lists.

davem indicated that he's happy to run the mailing lists.

Now, I don't know why you are pulling non-kernel arm-related maillists
into the picture. Those are not normally cced by kernel people, so
they not cause problems. Blackmail?

> I estimate that this will happen this evening.  Really.  Because I don't
> see this thread settling down.

If pulling the plug on them is the only way to get useful mailing list
for linux-arm-kernel, go ahead!
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Kevin Hilman]

Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@arm.com> writes:

> On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 10:18 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
>> These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them.  The
>> amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to
>> continue to provide such a service to this community.  When I pull them,
>> I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.
>
> Since there weren't many comments in this thread from the core ARM Linux
> developers, I find it a bit silly to get upset like this. But, well, in
> the end it's your decision and some people may find that moving to a
> non-subscribers list is a good thing (and may also save you and Erik
> some time). Others may find it was a bad decision, it's hard to say.

$0.02 from an ARM developer/subarch maintainer.

I for one will be happy to see the list move to vger.

Over the years, I have had numerous headaches with the filters causing
delays or rejects in postings, particularily when using automated
tools like 'quilt mail' or 'git send-email.'  While things have
improved, it has still caused headaches that I have never had with
other lists.

Kevin

RE: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARMsections

[H Hartley Sweeten]

On Friday, August 14, 2009 3:01 AM, Daniel Silverstone wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:18:08AM +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
>> These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them.  The
>> amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to
>> continue to provide such a service to this community.  When I pull them,
>> I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.
>> Someone else can provide and run the mailing lists.
>> I estimate that this will happen this evening.  Really.  Because I don't
>> see this thread settling down.
>
> While I appreciate that this is possibly too little too late, for what it's
> worth I personally appreciate all the effort you put into the ARM-Linux lists,
> and I think it would be a great shame to let them turn into the free-for-all
> bunfight which we know will happen if you relinquish the control you hold.
> 
> Linux-ARM-Kernel is the only Linux-related mailing list I have left which isn't
> running on a host I have to whitelist through all of my spam-checking because
> the lists are so spam-friendly that if I try and spam-check them, I get kicked
> off for rejecting too much of the mail.
> 
> I dread to think what will happen to the quality of the code if the vendors are
> left to push whatever they like into the core.  Heck, even the long-term
> subsystem or arch/mach maintainers sometimes need a push in the right
> direction, and I doubt that such information and impetus would make it to them
> if the lists were not well managed.
> 
> For my $0.02, I hope you find it in you to be able to continue managing the
> lists as they are, and I am sorry for not piping up a bit earlier.

For what it's worth I agree with Daniel's comments.

There may be people that disagree with Russell's comments/attitude sometimes
but he provides a great resource for the ARM community.  I personally have no
problems with the linux-arm lists.  It's one of the few I am on that I "know"
all mail will be relevant and useful.

Regards,
Hartley

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Russell King - ARM Linux]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 01:16:22PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Read that outdated FAQ you are posting to the list so often. Fact: it
> is From: you, and it mentions a lot of stuff but it does not tell us
> that Erik is the list admin.

Have a guess why those postings have a from line as me?  Could it be
because it's a cron job which runs under my user id to take the web
page and mail it to the list once a week?  Or could it be some mind
control experiment?

I'm sorry the FAQ doesn't tell you who the admins for the mailing list
are.  That subject hasn't been a FAQ by people actually on these lists -
as in "who runs these lists?"  I'm sorry I didn't think of it when I
wrote the original FAQ.  I'm sorry others who helped me write the
thing didn't think of it either.

But really what I find offensive from you above is that you're attributing
malace where there is none.  That is why I'm threatening to pull these
mailing lists - I've had enough of people like you firing crap like that
at me and having to defend myself against it on my own, normally very
badly.

Re: [PATCH] MAINTAINERS: Add "L: linux-arm@vger.kernel.org" to ARM sections

[Joe Perches]

On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 20:37 +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> But really what I find offensive [] is that you're attributing
> malice where there is none.

Hi Russell.

I don't find any malice in you.
Hope you find the same in the other direction.

I do hope you can find yourself capable of 
not assuming malice in others when perhaps it's
not there.

I appreciate all the work you've done for ARM.

I still own and use a small ARM box,
an old Rebel "NetWinder", as my mailserver.

Without you, it probably wouldn't work, and
I'd be stuck with something power hungry.

cheers, Joe