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From: Jamie Lokier <jamie-yetKDKU6eevNLxjTenLetw@public.gmane.org>
To: Russell King - ARM Linux <linux-lFZ/pmaqli7XmaaqVzeoHQ@public.gmane.org>
Cc: Nicolas Pitre <nico-vtqb6HGKxmzR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>,
	devicetree-discuss
	<devicetree-discuss-uLR06cmDAlY/bJ5BZ2RsiQ@public.gmane.org>,
	linuxppc-dev
	<linuxppc-dev-mnsaURCQ41sdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>,
	microblaze-uclinux-rVRm/Wmeqae7NGdpmJTKYQ@public.gmane.org,
	Dan Malek <ppc6dev-7kUUosv42bfn7oBBQGLwdg@public.gmane.org>,
	Jeremy Kerr <jeremy.kerr-Z7WLFzj8eWMS+FvcfC7Uqw@public.gmane.org>,
	linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Request review of device tree documentation
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:29:58 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20100614142958.GA9550@shareable.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20100614094740.GB7881-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>

Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 07:36:10PM +1000, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:
> > However, there's a lot of room for abuse here and I'm worried that if it
> > becomes widespread, we'll start seeing vendors use that as a way to do
> > some kind of HAL and hide various platform methods in there (clock
> > control, nvram, etc...).
> 
> This is what I'm worried about too.
> 
> As I said in my first reply in this thread, calling out from the kernel
> will kill performance due to the time taken to shut down the caches and
> MMU, which can only be done safely with all exceptions turned off.

Some applications use ARM (or other "embedded"-ish CPU) as opposed to
x86 PCs, to get predictable and reasonable interrupt latency.

x86 PCs sometimes have unpredictable interrupt latency due to those
mystery interrupts that the BIOS handles and the OS can't see or
block.  It's a different cause, but let's not duplicate the symptom
where it isn't wanted.

Even if opaque firmware callouts were fast, it would be an issue with
real-time kernels if they couldn't depend on that as an auditable fact.

-- Jamie

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>
To: Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk>
Cc: Mitch Bradley <wmb@firmworks.com>,
	Nicolas Pitre <nico@fluxnic.net>,
	devicetree-discuss <devicetree-discuss@lists.ozlabs.org>,
	linuxppc-dev <linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org>,
	microblaze-uclinux@itee.uq.edu.au,
	Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net>,
	Dan Malek <ppc6dev@digitaldans.com>,
	Jeremy Kerr <jeremy.kerr@canonical.com>,
	linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org
Subject: Re: Request review of device tree documentation
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:29:58 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20100614142958.GA9550@shareable.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20100614094740.GB7881@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk>

Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 07:36:10PM +1000, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:
> > However, there's a lot of room for abuse here and I'm worried that if it
> > becomes widespread, we'll start seeing vendors use that as a way to do
> > some kind of HAL and hide various platform methods in there (clock
> > control, nvram, etc...).
> 
> This is what I'm worried about too.
> 
> As I said in my first reply in this thread, calling out from the kernel
> will kill performance due to the time taken to shut down the caches and
> MMU, which can only be done safely with all exceptions turned off.

Some applications use ARM (or other "embedded"-ish CPU) as opposed to
x86 PCs, to get predictable and reasonable interrupt latency.

x86 PCs sometimes have unpredictable interrupt latency due to those
mystery interrupts that the BIOS handles and the OS can't see or
block.  It's a different cause, but let's not duplicate the symptom
where it isn't wanted.

Even if opaque firmware callouts were fast, it would be an issue with
real-time kernels if they couldn't depend on that as an auditable fact.

-- Jamie

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: jamie@shareable.org (Jamie Lokier)
To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org
Subject: Request review of device tree documentation
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:29:58 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20100614142958.GA9550@shareable.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20100614094740.GB7881@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk>

Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 07:36:10PM +1000, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:
> > However, there's a lot of room for abuse here and I'm worried that if it
> > becomes widespread, we'll start seeing vendors use that as a way to do
> > some kind of HAL and hide various platform methods in there (clock
> > control, nvram, etc...).
> 
> This is what I'm worried about too.
> 
> As I said in my first reply in this thread, calling out from the kernel
> will kill performance due to the time taken to shut down the caches and
> MMU, which can only be done safely with all exceptions turned off.

Some applications use ARM (or other "embedded"-ish CPU) as opposed to
x86 PCs, to get predictable and reasonable interrupt latency.

x86 PCs sometimes have unpredictable interrupt latency due to those
mystery interrupts that the BIOS handles and the OS can't see or
block.  It's a different cause, but let's not duplicate the symptom
where it isn't wanted.

Even if opaque firmware callouts were fast, it would be an issue with
real-time kernels if they couldn't depend on that as an auditable fact.

-- Jamie

  parent reply	other threads:[~2010-06-14 14:29 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 187+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-06-11 22:59 Request review of device tree documentation Grant Likely
2010-06-11 22:59 ` Grant Likely
     [not found] ` <AANLkTilK4YkRMJqlcRDOAlGBzpdlZuSo9NF5NrRNocHT-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-11 23:47   ` Dan Malek
2010-06-11 23:47     ` Dan Malek
     [not found]     ` <33BD8E86-9397-432A-97BF-F154812C157B-7kUUosv42bfn7oBBQGLwdg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-12  2:58       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12  2:58         ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12  4:48         ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-12  4:48           ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-12  6:53     ` Grant Likely
2010-06-12  6:53       ` Grant Likely
     [not found]       ` <AANLkTilv6TtPZs0DAwd8JlSV_J3VvMsvtVVOOeQauOIn-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-12  8:19         ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-12  8:19           ` Mitch Bradley
     [not found]           ` <4C13430B.5000907-D5eQfiDGL7eakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-12 10:45             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12 10:45               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12 10:48               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12 10:48                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12 16:30                 ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-12 16:30                   ` Mitch Bradley
     [not found]                   ` <4C13B618.1030006-D5eQfiDGL7eakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-12 22:52                     ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12 22:52                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-13  5:07                       ` Grant Likely
2010-06-13  5:07                         ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                         ` <AANLkTimRV8u3gDNCAIlROJoPcKs7jFwj2na3ZDFOg3O0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-13  5:39                           ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-13  5:39                             ` Mitch Bradley
     [not found]                             ` <4C146F18.9030008-D5eQfiDGL7eakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-13  5:59                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-13  5:59                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-13  6:45                                 ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-13  6:45                                   ` Mitch Bradley
     [not found]                                   ` <4C147EA5.3060500-D5eQfiDGL7eakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-13  8:29                                     ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-13  8:29                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  5:36                                       ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:36                                         ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:36                                         ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 20:00                                         ` Ben Dooks
2010-06-14 20:00                                           ` Ben Dooks
2010-06-14 20:00                                           ` Ben Dooks
2010-06-13  8:57                                     ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-13  8:57                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  5:23                                 ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:23                                   ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:23                                   ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                                   ` <AANLkTinwL0XtMNG13inr_1UliOlqZkyr4dlvG-ZGL9JT-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14  7:38                                     ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2010-06-14  7:38                                       ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2010-06-14  7:38                                       ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                                       ` <20100614073828.GA6095-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14  7:45                                         ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14  7:45                                           ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14  7:45                                           ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14  9:25                                           ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2010-06-14  9:25                                             ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                                             ` <20100614092559.GA7881-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14  9:36                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  9:36                                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  9:36                                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  9:47                                                 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2010-06-14  9:47                                                   ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                                                   ` <20100614094740.GB7881-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 14:29                                                     ` Jamie Lokier [this message]
2010-06-14 14:29                                                       ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-14 14:29                                                       ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-14 13:51                                     ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 13:51                                       ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 13:51                                       ` Nicolas Pitre
     [not found]                                       ` <alpine.LFD.2.00.1006140943350.13427-QuJgVwGFrdf/9pzu0YdTqQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 15:35                                         ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 15:35                                           ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 15:35                                           ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                                           ` <AANLkTim1mYpaxe-_OGbOF3AaZ6m5_SVUXLbeyKnAyvjs-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 15:58                                             ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 15:58                                               ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 15:58                                               ` Nicolas Pitre
     [not found]                                               ` <alpine.LFD.2.00.1006141143480.13427-QuJgVwGFrdf/9pzu0YdTqQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 16:16                                                 ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 16:16                                                   ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 16:16                                                   ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:02                               ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:02                                 ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:02                                 ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                                 ` <AANLkTikls3hjXOmKFqG2D_9GaJSjOXNuuRXPlanAjo5E-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 12:44                                   ` David Gibson
2010-06-14 12:44                                     ` David Gibson
2010-06-14 12:44                                     ` David Gibson
2010-06-14 14:59                                     ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 14:59                                       ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 14:59                                       ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 15:08                                       ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 15:08                                         ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 15:08                                         ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                                       ` <alpine.LFD.2.00.1006141044510.13427-QuJgVwGFrdf/9pzu0YdTqQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 16:02                                         ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-14 16:02                                           ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-14 16:02                                           ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-14 16:23                                           ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 16:23                                             ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 16:23                                             ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 16:29                                             ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 16:29                                               ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 16:29                                               ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 16:28                                           ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 16:28                                             ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14 16:28                                             ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                                             ` <AANLkTilZuMKzFN1hD1k4Q067jSkryPuWA2bhW0Y3GJTg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 16:33                                               ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-14 16:33                                                 ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-14 16:33                                                 ` Jamie Lokier
     [not found]                                           ` <20100614160201.GD9550-yetKDKU6eevNLxjTenLetw@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 16:58                                             ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14 16:58                                               ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14 16:58                                               ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14 17:26                                               ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 17:26                                                 ` Nicolas Pitre
     [not found]                                                 ` <alpine.LFD.2.00.1006141311580.13427-QuJgVwGFrdf/9pzu0YdTqQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 18:20                                                   ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14 18:20                                                     ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14 18:20                                                     ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14 19:40                                                     ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 19:40                                                       ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-14 20:08                                                       ` Mark Brown
2010-06-14 20:08                                                         ` Mark Brown
2010-06-14 20:08                                                         ` Mark Brown
2010-06-16  6:09                                               ` Mike Rapoport
2010-06-16  6:09                                                 ` Mike Rapoport
2010-06-16  6:09                                                 ` Mike Rapoport
     [not found]                                                 ` <4C186AA8.4040709-UTxiZqZC01RS1MOuV/RT9w@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16  6:13                                                   ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  6:13                                                     ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  6:13                                                     ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  6:17                                                     ` Mike Rapoport
2010-06-16  6:17                                                       ` Mike Rapoport
     [not found]                                                       ` <4C186C72.2020506-UTxiZqZC01RS1MOuV/RT9w@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16  6:32                                                         ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  6:32                                                           ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  6:32                                                           ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  6:47                                                           ` Mike Rapoport
2010-06-16  6:47                                                             ` Mike Rapoport
     [not found]                                                             ` <4C18738C.4090809-UTxiZqZC01RS1MOuV/RT9w@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16  7:40                                                               ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  7:40                                                                 ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  7:40                                                                 ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-16  9:45                                                                 ` Vladimir Pantelic
2010-06-16  9:45                                                                   ` Vladimir Pantelic
2010-06-16  9:45                                                                   ` Vladimir Pantelic
2010-06-16 10:39                                                                 ` Mike Rapoport
2010-06-16 10:39                                                                   ` Mike Rapoport
     [not found]                                                                   ` <4C18A9C7.5070800-UTxiZqZC01RS1MOuV/RT9w@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 11:41                                                                     ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-16 11:41                                                                       ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-16 11:41                                                                       ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-16 13:48                                                                       ` Jamie Bennett
2010-06-16 13:48                                                                         ` Jamie Bennett
2010-06-16 14:39                                                                   ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-16 14:39                                                                     ` Nicolas Pitre
2010-06-16 17:43                                                                     ` Tim Bird
2010-06-16 17:43                                                                       ` Tim Bird
2010-06-16 17:43                                                                       ` Tim Bird
2010-06-17  6:45                                                                       ` Benjamin Zores
     [not found]                                                           ` <4C187013.5000400-D5eQfiDGL7eakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16  6:52                                                             ` M. Warner Losh
2010-06-16  6:52                                                               ` M. Warner Losh
2010-06-16  6:52                                                               ` M. Warner Losh
2010-06-18 22:12                                                               ` Frank Rowand
2010-06-18 22:12                                                                 ` Frank Rowand
2010-06-15  2:02                                         ` David Gibson
2010-06-15  2:02                                           ` David Gibson
2010-06-15  2:02                                           ` David Gibson
2010-06-14 15:51                                     ` M. Warner Losh
2010-06-14 15:51                                       ` M. Warner Losh
2010-06-14 15:51                                       ` M. Warner Losh
2010-06-13  5:48                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-13  5:48                             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  5:13                             ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:13                               ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:13                               ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                               ` <AANLkTikBjwuVvij8I91XaQgLfn8r_lZDrAsIBfJrHDBF-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14  6:09                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  6:09                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  6:09                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-14  6:17                                   ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14  6:17                                     ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-14  6:17                                     ` Mitch Bradley
2010-06-12 22:15       ` Olof Johansson
2010-06-12 23:09         ` Grant Likely
2010-06-12 23:09           ` Grant Likely
2010-06-13  6:47           ` [microblaze-uclinux] " Edgar E. Iglesias
2010-06-12  3:00   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12  3:00     ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12  3:07     ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-12  3:07       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2010-06-13 13:12       ` Jeremy Kerr
2010-06-13 13:12         ` Jeremy Kerr
2010-06-14  5:40         ` Grant Likely
2010-08-05  4:43   ` David Gibson
2010-08-05  4:43     ` David Gibson
2010-09-01 16:19     ` Grant Likely
2010-09-01 16:19       ` Grant Likely
2010-06-12 17:33 ` Stephan Gatzka
2010-06-12 18:19   ` Grant Likely
     [not found]     ` <4C149DE1.1050800@gatzka.org>
     [not found]       ` <4C149DE1.1050800-tNItQxeJkt8dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-13 20:03         ` Grant Likely
     [not found]           ` <AANLkTim-FzAihEd0FE72dy3Ubb2yiIQh4rtI6TIMovFW-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14 23:44             ` Grant Likely
     [not found]               ` <AANLkTikV9XqufTO9LVAql3nbySpPz_p_4kv7YY2b4UPW-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-15 19:25                 ` Stephan Gatzka
     [not found]   ` <4C13C4D9.2030108-tNItQxeJkt8dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-14  5:54     ` Grant Likely
2010-06-14  5:54       ` Grant Likely
2010-08-05 15:15 Terren Chow
     [not found] ` <AANLkTikFNFvM7x6TzN8DPM9E4vC0KVRb0sz4r2wu_nZ+-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2010-08-05 16:41   ` Grant Likely

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