Where is GRUB development?

Where is GRUB development?

[Bruce Korb]

I've been Googling around to no particular avail.  I have this
_really_ difficult problem.  I need to boot into single user mode and
GRUB2 has made it so difficult that I am unable to accomplish that.  I
am sure there are reasons for obscuring the obvious in this way, but
such reasons escape me.  If anyone here is still doing GRUB2
development, *please* consider an enhancement to the interface that
will make it obvious and easy to boot into run levels 1 and 3 as well
as 5.  Thank you.

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 09:24:34AM -0700, Bruce Korb wrote:
> I've been Googling around to no particular avail.  I have this
> _really_ difficult problem.  I need to boot into single user mode and
> GRUB2 has made it so difficult that I am unable to accomplish that.  I
> am sure there are reasons for obscuring the obvious in this way, but
> such reasons escape me.  If anyone here is still doing GRUB2
> development, *please* consider an enhancement to the interface that
> will make it obvious and easy to boot into run levels 1 and 3 as well
> as 5.  Thank you.

That's a kernel command line issue, and something every distribution I
have ever used took care of automatically by creating extra grub menu
entries with the correct arguments.

Nothing to do with grub other than grub happens to do what you tell it
in the config.

So grub has done nothing to make it difficult since it has never been
a grub issue.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Andrey Borzenkov]

В Mon, 13 May 2013 13:07:14 -0400
"Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> пишет:

> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 09:24:34AM -0700, Bruce Korb wrote:
> > I've been Googling around to no particular avail.  I have this
> > _really_ difficult problem.  I need to boot into single user mode and
> > GRUB2 has made it so difficult that I am unable to accomplish that.  I
> > am sure there are reasons for obscuring the obvious in this way, but
> > such reasons escape me.  If anyone here is still doing GRUB2
> > development, *please* consider an enhancement to the interface that
> > will make it obvious and easy to boot into run levels 1 and 3 as well
> > as 5.  Thank you.
> 
> That's a kernel command line issue, and something every distribution I
> have ever used took care of automatically by creating extra grub menu
> entries with the correct arguments.
> 

Do you suggest to create extra menu entries for every possible
combination of kernel parameters?

> Nothing to do with grub other than grub happens to do what you tell it
> in the config.
> 

Sometimes we may need to change or augment what is in the config during
boot as one off action. Without creating configuration file.

> So grub has done nothing to make it difficult since it has never been
> a grub issue.
> 

Let's be fair.

Editing grub2 menu entry is far more complicated than even editing plain
grub legacy menu entry. And most users have never seen even that - they
know gfxmenu that has input field for extra kernel parameters. So for
99% of *users* booting into single user was a matter of pressing "1
ENTER". Most of them are not even aware that menu entries can be edited
(because for them gfxmenu *was* grub).

For them doing anything in grub2 (even as much as forcing system into
single user) is shocking experience. 

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:09:41PM +0400, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
> Do you suggest to create extra menu entries for every possible
> combination of kernel parameters?

Yes.  It's not grub's job to know everything about a linux kernel,
or bsd kernel or whatever else you might want to pass.

Runlevels is a user space thing too, and not even a kernel thing, so
even more reason grub knows nothing about it.

> Sometimes we may need to change or augment what is in the config during
> boot as one off action. Without creating configuration file.

Which you can still do.

> Let's be fair.
> 
> Editing grub2 menu entry is far more complicated than even editing plain
> grub legacy menu entry. And most users have never seen even that - they
> know gfxmenu that has input field for extra kernel parameters. So for
> 99% of *users* booting into single user was a matter of pressing "1
> ENTER". Most of them are not even aware that menu entries can be edited
> (because for them gfxmenu *was* grub).

Not really.  Editing in grub2 is not that different from grub 0.97
(although it is slightly different).

I have never used gfxmenu, so no idea what it looks like.

> For them doing anything in grub2 (even as much as forcing system into
> single user) is shocking experience. 

I think you are the one that is being entirely unfair.

Debian auto generates a grub.cfg just fine with a rescue option for each
kernel detected which does single user mode.  It does other options too
if you ask it to.  Pretty darn simple to use.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Chris Murphy]

On May 13, 2013, at 12:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>> 
> 
> Not really.  Editing in grub2 is not that different from grub 0.97
> (although it is slightly different).

Slightly different are the syntax changes between versions of GRUB 1.xx that caused even grubby to puke. The difference in syntax between 0.97 and 2 are monumental, unless you're a scripting nerd. If you're a regular user, the whole linux boot loader experience is offensive. It's extraordinarily user hostile.


> 
> I have never used gfxmenu, so no idea what it looks like.
> 
>> For them doing anything in grub2 (even as much as forcing system into
>> single user) is shocking experience. 
> 
> I think you are the one that is being entirely unfair.
> 
> Debian auto generates a grub.cfg just fine with a rescue option for each
> kernel detected which does single user mode.  It does other options too
> if you ask it to.  Pretty darn simple to use.

Simple is pressing and holding an s key during boot to get single user mode.


Chris Murphy

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Bruce Korb]

Hi,

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Lennart Sorensen
<lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> Debian auto generates a grub.cfg just fine with a rescue option for each
> kernel detected which does single user mode.  It does other options too
> if you ask it to.  Pretty darn simple to use.

Well, my distro (openSuSE) generates a special entry for "rescue"
mode, too.  But it rescues me into run level 5.  "init 3" will,
indeed, drop me back to multi-user and "init 1" back to single user,
but without a reboot, various dinkleberries were an interference. (I
forget why -- perhaps a misperception.  I'm not at home right now.)

I have learned that in the grub2 menu mode, you can press "e" and all
of a sudden you can edit the command line.  It seems my request boils
down to some documentation.  In the menu code so when I'm looking at
the menu, there should be something to indicate that I can press "e"
and edit the line to include a "1" at the end of the line.  I know
that theoretically every operating system can have command line
operands that are completely different.  In practicality, however,
they are 99.99% UNIX derivatives so pressing five keys to get to
single user mode ought not be a big issue:   e<enter><space>1<enter>
-- right?  Not at home to try….

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Jordi Mallach]

El dl 13 de 05 de 2013 a les 11:43 -0700, en/na Bruce Korb va escriure:
> I have learned that in the grub2 menu mode, you can press "e" and all
> of a sudden you can edit the command line.  It seems my request boils
> down to some documentation.  In the menu code so when I'm looking at
> the menu, there should be something to indicate that I can press "e"
> and edit the line to include a "1" at the end of the line.  I know
> that theoretically every operating system can have command line
> operands that are completely different.  In practicality, however,
> they are 99.99% UNIX derivatives so pressing five keys to get to
> single user mode ought not be a big issue:   e<enter><space>1<enter>
> -- right?  Not at home to try….

The default GRUB menu does hint about what you can do, and explicitly
states e will let you edit an entry.

If your distro is theming grub2 and the theme doesn't have that text,
it's not GRUB who's to blame.

-- 
Jordi Mallach Pérez  --  Debian developer     http://www.debian.org/
jordi@sindominio.net     jordi@debian.org     http://www.sindominio.net/
GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:43:50AM -0700, Bruce Korb wrote:
> Well, my distro (openSuSE) generates a special entry for "rescue"
> mode, too.  But it rescues me into run level 5.  "init 3" will,
> indeed, drop me back to multi-user and "init 1" back to single user,
> but without a reboot, various dinkleberries were an interference. (I
> forget why -- perhaps a misperception.  I'm not at home right now.)

Well runlevels and their meanings are a user space issue.  1 is only
single user by tradition, it doesn't have to be.

Really not something a boot loader can know or care about.

> I have learned that in the grub2 menu mode, you can press "e" and all
> of a sudden you can edit the command line.  It seems my request boils
> down to some documentation.  In the menu code so when I'm looking at
> the menu, there should be something to indicate that I can press "e"
> and edit the line to include a "1" at the end of the line.  I know
> that theoretically every operating system can have command line
> operands that are completely different.  In practicality, however,
> they are 99.99% UNIX derivatives so pressing five keys to get to
> single user mode ought not be a big issue:   e<enter><space>1<enter>
> -- right?  Not at home to try….

Hmm, I thought it was right on the screen that e was edit.  I guess if
you use a graphical menu it might not be there.

And of course you ahve to hit control-x to boot your custom entry as
far as I remember.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:39:39PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> Slightly different are the syntax changes between versions of GRUB 1.xx that caused even grubby to puke. The difference in syntax between 0.97 and 2 are monumental, unless you're a scripting nerd. If you're a regular user, the whole linux boot loader experience is offensive. It's extraordinarily user hostile.

Certainly the syntax changed as new features were added.  Grub 2 can
boot a lot more OSs than grub 0.97 could.

> Simple is pressing and holding an s key during boot to get single user mode.

Nothing prevents the user space from choosing to implement that in init.
In fact I have seen some systems have an 'interactive' startup by doing
something like that.

Single user is simply another mode of user space, and the kernel doesn't
know or care about it and neither does the boot loader.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Goswin von Brederlow]

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 03:54:46PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:43:50AM -0700, Bruce Korb wrote:
> > Well, my distro (openSuSE) generates a special entry for "rescue"
> > mode, too.  But it rescues me into run level 5.  "init 3" will,
> > indeed, drop me back to multi-user and "init 1" back to single user,
> > but without a reboot, various dinkleberries were an interference. (I
> > forget why -- perhaps a misperception.  I'm not at home right now.)
> 
> Well runlevels and their meanings are a user space issue.  1 is only
> single user by tradition, it doesn't have to be.
> 
> Really not something a boot loader can know or care about.
> 
> > I have learned that in the grub2 menu mode, you can press "e" and all
> > of a sudden you can edit the command line.  It seems my request boils
> > down to some documentation.  In the menu code so when I'm looking at
> > the menu, there should be something to indicate that I can press "e"
> > and edit the line to include a "1" at the end of the line.  I know
> > that theoretically every operating system can have command line
> > operands that are completely different.  In practicality, however,
> > they are 99.99% UNIX derivatives so pressing five keys to get to
> > single user mode ought not be a big issue:   e<enter><space>1<enter>
> > -- right?  Not at home to try???.
> 
> Hmm, I thought it was right on the screen that e was edit.  I guess if
> you use a graphical menu it might not be there.
> 
> And of course you ahve to hit control-x to boot your custom entry as
> far as I remember.

I do remember the e for edit text too and once you are in edit mode
the special keys like ctrl-x are listed too. Editing is also self
explanatory. Cursor keys work, backspace and del work and other keys
simply insert the text. But I use text mode too.


So might the bug be that the graphical menu is missing the help text
at the bottom?

MfG
	Goswin

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Bruce Korb]

Hi,

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Lennart Sorensen
<lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> Well runlevels and their meanings are a user space issue.  1 is only
> single user by tradition, it doesn't have to be.

"single user" is meaningful only by tradition in the UNIX environment
and GRUB is OS agnostic.
Still and all, most often if you're booting with GRUB, you are also
booting an OS from the UNIX
tradition, meaning appending a "1" is going to put the thing into some
administrative mode.

> Really not something a boot loader can know or care about.

It does not seem reasonable to be helpful for the users of the OS most
commonly booted?

> Hmm, I thought it was right on the screen that e was edit.  I guess if
> you use a graphical menu it might not be there.

Looks like text to me.  Maybe it is text on a graphical interface.
Whatever.  No indicator
that pressing "e" does anything, but pressing "e" gets you to an
edit-the-menu-entry screen.
Unfortunately, the menu entry now is not a comprehensible one liner
like it used to be.
To someone unfamiliar with the menu contents, it is a dozen very long
lines full of
strange abbrevs.  The hint about "put a '1' on the end of the line
that starts with 'linux' "
is necessary for the uninitiated.  For folks who just want to get their Linux
up and running, requiring them to learn and understand the mysterious ways of
the grub boot menu is just too much.  Just a tiny hint alongside the "control-x"
hint would be very helpful:

> And of course you have to hit control-x to boot your custom[ized] entry

There are several options.  Fortunately, those options _are_ enumerated on that
editing page.  Please consider adding a hint about the "linux" (os image) line.

Regards, Bruce

Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko]

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On 14.05.2013 18:33, Bruce Korb wrote:

> Whatever.  No indicator
> that pressing "e" does anything, but pressing "e" gets you to an
> edit-the-menu-entry screen.

Read at the bottom of the screen.
> For folks who just want to get their Linux
> up and running, requiring them to learn and understand the mysterious
ways of
> the grub boot menu is just too much.  Just a tiny hint alongside the
"control-x"
> hint would be very helpful:
A user who doesn't know anything about administration going to single
mode is a recipe for disaster


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Re: Where is GRUB development?

[Chris Murphy]

On May 14, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko <phcoder@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 14.05.2013 18:33, Bruce Korb wrote:
> 
>> Whatever.  No indicator
>> that pressing "e" does anything, but pressing "e" gets you to an
>> edit-the-menu-entry screen.
> 
> Read at the bottom of the screen.
>> For folks who just want to get their Linux
>> up and running, requiring them to learn and understand the mysterious
> ways of
>> the grub boot menu is just too much.  Just a tiny hint alongside the
> "control-x"
>> hint would be very helpful:
> A user who doesn't know anything about administration going to single
> mode is a recipe for disaster

Knowing something about administration in single user mode is orthogonal to the boot process.

However, a significant amount of the boot related difficulties are due to craptastic firmware implementations. If boot managers like GRUB did less to smooth over the utter dog vomit firmware in the world, users would direct their irritation elsewhere, where it properly belongs. But then we'd also have far fewer bootable systems.

Chris Murphy