From: "Ahmed S. Darwish" <darwish.07@gmail.com>
To: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, Vito Caputo <vcaputo@pengaru.com>,
Lennart Poettering <mzxreary@0pointer.de>,
Andreas Dilger <adilger.kernel@dilger.ca>,
Jan Kara <jack@suse.cz>, Ray Strode <rstrode@redhat.com>,
William Jon McCann <mccann@jhu.edu>,
"Alexander E. Patrakov" <patrakov@gmail.com>,
zhangjs <zachary@baishancloud.com>,
linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, lkml <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Linux 5.3-rc8
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:53:57 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20190916195357.GA3312@darwi-home-pc> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190916172117.GB15263@mit.edu>
On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 01:21:17PM -0400, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 09:17:10AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > So the semantics that getrandom() should have had are:
> >
> > getrandom(0) - just give me reasonable random numbers for any of a
> > million non-strict-long-term-security use (ie the old urandom)
> >
> > - the nonblocking flag makes no sense here and would be a no-op
>
> That change is what I consider highly problematic. There are a *huge*
> number of applications which use cryptography which assumes that
> getrandom(0) means, "I'm guaranteed to get something safe
> cryptographic use". Changing his now would expose a very large number
> of applications to be insecure. Part of the problem here is that
> there are many different actors. There is the application or
> cryptographic library developer, who may want to be sure they have
> cryptographically secure random numbers. They are the ones who will
> select getrandom(0).
>
> Then you have the distribution or consumer-grade electronics
> developers who may choose to run them too early in some init script or
> systemd unit files. And some of these people may do something stupid,
> like run things too early, or omit the a hardware random number
> generator in their design, even though it's for a security critical
> purpose (say, a digital wallet for bitcoin).
Ted, you're really the expert here. My apologies though, every time I
see the words "too early" I get a cramp... Please check my earlier
reply:
https://lkml.kernel.org/r/20190912034421.GA2085@darwi-home-pc
Specifically the trace_printk log of all the getrandom(2) calls
during an standard Archlinux boot...
where is the "too early" boundary there? It's undefinable.
You either have entropy, or you don't. And if you don't, it will stay
like this forever, because if you had, you wouldn't have blocked in
the first place...
Thanks,
--
Ahmed Darwish
http://darwish.chasingpointers.com
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-09-16 19:54 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 214+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-09-08 20:59 Linux 5.3-rc8 Linus Torvalds
2019-09-10 4:21 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-10 11:33 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-10 12:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-10 17:33 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-10 17:47 ` Reindl Harald
2019-09-10 18:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-11 16:07 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-11 16:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-11 17:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-11 17:36 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-12 3:44 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-12 8:25 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-12 11:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-12 11:58 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-14 12:25 ` [PATCH RFC] random: getrandom(2): don't block on non-initialized entropy pool Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 14:08 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-15 5:22 ` [PATCH RFC v2] random: optionally block in getrandom(2) when the CRNG is uninitialized Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-15 8:17 ` [PATCH RFC v3] random: getrandom(2): optionally block when " Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 8:59 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 9:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 10:02 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 10:40 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 10:55 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 11:17 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 17:32 ` [PATCH RFC v2] random: optionally block in getrandom(2) when the " Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 18:32 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 18:36 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 19:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 19:18 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 19:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 19:54 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 18:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 19:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 2:45 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-16 18:08 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-16 19:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-18 21:15 ` [PATCH RFC v4 0/1] random: WARN on large getrandom() waits and introduce getrandom2() Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-18 21:17 ` [PATCH RFC v4 1/1] " Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-18 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 14:34 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-19 15:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 15:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 13:13 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-19 20:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 20:45 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-19 21:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 22:23 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-19 23:44 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-20 13:16 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-23 11:55 ` David Laight
2019-09-20 13:08 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-20 13:46 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-20 14:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 16:29 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 17:52 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 18:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 18:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 19:12 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 19:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 20:11 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-20 20:17 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-20 20:51 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 22:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 23:30 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-21 3:05 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-21 6:07 ` Florian Weimer
2019-09-23 18:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-26 21:11 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-20 18:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 19:22 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 19:37 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 19:52 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 20:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 18:15 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-20 18:29 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 17:26 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 17:56 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-26 20:42 ` [PATCH v5 0/1] random: getrandom(2): warn on large CRNG waits, introduce new flags Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-26 20:44 ` [PATCH v5 1/1] " Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-26 21:39 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-28 9:30 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-20 0:51 ` [random] ec47a799bf: WARNING:at_drivers/char/random.c:#getrandom_wait kernel test robot
2019-09-20 0:51 ` kernel test robot
2019-09-14 15:02 ` Linux 5.3-rc8 Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 16:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-14 16:35 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-14 16:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-14 17:09 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-14 19:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 6:56 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 7:01 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 7:05 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 7:07 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 8:34 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 17:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 3:23 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 3:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 3:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 17:00 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 17:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-14 21:11 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 22:05 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-14 22:24 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-14 22:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 1:00 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-15 1:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 2:05 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-15 2:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 6:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 6:53 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 6:51 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 7:27 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 8:48 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 16:29 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 1:40 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-16 1:48 ` Vito Caputo
2019-09-16 2:49 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 4:29 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 5:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 6:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 16:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 17:21 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 17:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 17:55 ` Serge Belyshev
2019-09-16 19:08 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 23:02 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-16 23:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 23:11 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-16 23:13 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-16 23:15 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-16 23:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 23:29 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-17 1:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 1:23 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 1:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 1:46 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 5:24 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 7:33 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 8:35 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 8:44 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 12:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-17 12:30 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-17 12:46 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 12:47 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 16:08 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 16:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 16:34 ` Reindl Harald
2019-09-17 17:42 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 18:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 20:28 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 20:52 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-17 21:38 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 21:52 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 22:10 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-18 13:53 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-19 7:28 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 23:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 13:40 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 20:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 9:33 ` Rasmus Villemoes
2019-09-18 10:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-18 10:25 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-18 10:42 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-18 19:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 19:56 ` Eric W. Biederman
2019-09-18 20:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 20:15 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-18 20:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 22:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-27 13:57 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-27 15:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-29 9:05 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 13:11 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 13:37 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 15:57 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 16:21 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 17:13 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 17:29 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 20:42 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-18 13:38 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-18 13:59 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-18 14:50 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 20:36 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 16:27 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 16:34 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 17:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 17:20 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 17:23 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 17:57 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 16:58 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 17:30 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 17:32 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 17:41 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 17:28 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 0:03 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 0:40 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 7:15 ` a sane approach to random numbers (was: Re: Linux 5.3-rc8) Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-16 18:00 ` Linux 5.3-rc8 Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-16 19:53 ` Ahmed S. Darwish [this message]
2019-09-17 15:32 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-16 3:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-23 20:49 ` chaos generating driver was " Pavel Machek
2019-09-14 9:25 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 16:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-11 21:41 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-11 22:37 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-16 3:52 ` Herbert Xu
2019-09-16 4:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 4:53 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-10 11:56 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 10:33 ` Christoph Hellwig
2019-10-03 21:10 ` Jon Masters
2019-10-03 21:31 ` Jon Masters
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