From: "Alexander E. Patrakov" <patrakov@gmail.com>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Cc: "Ahmed S. Darwish" <darwish.07@gmail.com>,
"Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>,
Andreas Dilger <adilger.kernel@dilger.ca>,
Jan Kara <jack@suse.cz>, Ray Strode <rstrode@redhat.com>,
William Jon McCann <mccann@jhu.edu>,
zhangjs <zachary@baishancloud.com>,
linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org,
Lennart Poettering <lennart@poettering.net>,
lkml <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Linux 5.3-rc8
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 22:09:23 +0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <8c2a47cc-a519-ad94-5d9a-18bb03ba2fd7@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=wiB0e_uGpidYHf+dV4eeT+XmG-+rQBx=JJ110R48QFFWw@mail.gmail.com>
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14.09.2019 21:52, Linus Torvalds пишет:
> On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 9:35 AM Alexander E. Patrakov
> <patrakov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Let me repeat: not -EINVAL, please. Please find some other error code,
>> so that the application could sensibly distinguish between this case
>> (low quality entropy is in the buffer) and the "kernel is too dumb" case
>> (and no entropy is in the buffer).
>
> I'm not convinced we want applications to see that difference.
>
> The fact is, every time an application thinks it cares, it has caused
> problems. I can just see systemd saying "ok, the kernel didn't block,
> so I'll just do
>
> while (getrandom(x) == -ENOENTROPY)
> sleep(1);
>
> instead. Which is still completely buggy garbage.
OK, I understand this viewpoint. But then still, -EINVAL is not the
answer, because a hypothetical evil version of systemd will use -EINVAL
as -ENOENTROPY (with flags == 0 and a reasonable buffer size, there is
simply no other reason for the kernel to return -EINVAL). Yes I
understand that this is a complete reverse of my previous argument.
> The fact is, we can't guarantee entropy in general. It's probably
> there is practice, particularly with user space saving randomness from
> last boot etc, but that kind of data may be real entropy, but the
> kernel cannot *guarantee* that it is.
>
> And people don't like us guaranteeing that rdrand/rdseed is "real
> entropy" either, since they don't trust the CPU hw either.
>
> Which means that we're all kinds of screwed. The whole "we guarantee
> entropy" model is broken.
I agree here. Given that you suggested "to just fill the buffer and
return 0" in the previous mail (well, I think you really meant "return
buflen", otherwise ENOENTROPY == 0 and your previous objection applies),
let's do just that. As a bonus, it saves applications from the complex
dance with retrying via /dev/urandom and finally brings a reliable API
(modulo old and broken kernels) to get random numbers (well, as random
as possible right now) without needing a file descriptor.
--
Alexander E. Patrakov
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-09-14 17:09 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 214+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-09-08 20:59 Linux 5.3-rc8 Linus Torvalds
2019-09-10 4:21 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-10 11:33 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-10 12:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-10 17:33 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-10 17:47 ` Reindl Harald
2019-09-10 18:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-11 16:07 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-11 16:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-11 17:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-11 17:36 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-12 3:44 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-12 8:25 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-12 11:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-12 11:58 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-14 12:25 ` [PATCH RFC] random: getrandom(2): don't block on non-initialized entropy pool Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 14:08 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-15 5:22 ` [PATCH RFC v2] random: optionally block in getrandom(2) when the CRNG is uninitialized Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-15 8:17 ` [PATCH RFC v3] random: getrandom(2): optionally block when " Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 8:59 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 9:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 10:02 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 10:40 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 10:55 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 11:17 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 17:32 ` [PATCH RFC v2] random: optionally block in getrandom(2) when the " Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 18:32 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 18:36 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 19:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 19:18 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 19:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 19:54 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 18:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 19:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 2:45 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-16 18:08 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-16 19:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-18 21:15 ` [PATCH RFC v4 0/1] random: WARN on large getrandom() waits and introduce getrandom2() Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-18 21:17 ` [PATCH RFC v4 1/1] " Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-18 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 14:34 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-19 15:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 15:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 13:13 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-19 20:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 20:45 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-19 21:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-19 22:23 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-19 23:44 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-20 13:16 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-23 11:55 ` David Laight
2019-09-20 13:08 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-20 13:46 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-20 14:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 16:29 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 17:52 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 18:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 18:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 19:12 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 19:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 20:11 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-20 20:17 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-20 20:51 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 22:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 23:30 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-21 3:05 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-21 6:07 ` Florian Weimer
2019-09-23 18:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-26 21:11 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-20 18:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 19:22 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 19:37 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 19:52 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 20:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-20 18:15 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-20 18:29 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-20 17:26 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-20 17:56 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-26 20:42 ` [PATCH v5 0/1] random: getrandom(2): warn on large CRNG waits, introduce new flags Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-26 20:44 ` [PATCH v5 1/1] " Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-26 21:39 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-09-28 9:30 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-20 0:51 ` [random] ec47a799bf: WARNING:at_drivers/char/random.c:#getrandom_wait kernel test robot
2019-09-20 0:51 ` kernel test robot
2019-09-14 15:02 ` Linux 5.3-rc8 Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 16:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-14 16:35 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-14 16:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-14 17:09 ` Alexander E. Patrakov [this message]
2019-09-14 19:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 6:56 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 7:01 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 7:05 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 7:07 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 8:34 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 17:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 3:23 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 3:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 3:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 17:00 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 17:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-14 21:11 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 22:05 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-14 22:24 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-14 22:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 1:00 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-15 1:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 2:05 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-15 2:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-15 6:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 6:53 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-15 6:51 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 7:27 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-15 8:48 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-15 16:29 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 1:40 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-16 1:48 ` Vito Caputo
2019-09-16 2:49 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 4:29 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 5:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 6:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 16:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 17:21 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 17:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 17:55 ` Serge Belyshev
2019-09-16 19:08 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-16 23:02 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-16 23:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 23:11 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-16 23:13 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-16 23:15 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-16 23:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 23:29 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-17 1:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 1:23 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 1:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 1:46 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 5:24 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 7:33 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 8:35 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 8:44 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 12:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-17 12:30 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-17 12:46 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 12:47 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 16:08 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 16:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 16:34 ` Reindl Harald
2019-09-17 17:42 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 18:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 20:28 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 20:52 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-17 21:38 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 21:52 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 22:10 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-18 13:53 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-19 7:28 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 23:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 13:40 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 20:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 9:33 ` Rasmus Villemoes
2019-09-18 10:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-18 10:25 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-18 10:42 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-18 19:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 19:56 ` Eric W. Biederman
2019-09-18 20:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 20:15 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-18 20:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-18 22:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-27 13:57 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-27 15:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-29 9:05 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 13:11 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 13:37 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 15:57 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 16:21 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 17:13 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 17:29 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 20:42 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-18 13:38 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-18 13:59 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-18 14:50 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 20:36 ` Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-17 16:27 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-17 16:34 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 17:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 17:20 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 17:23 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 17:57 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 16:58 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 17:30 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 17:32 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-17 17:41 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-17 17:28 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-17 0:03 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 0:40 ` Matthew Garrett
2019-09-17 7:15 ` a sane approach to random numbers (was: Re: Linux 5.3-rc8) Martin Steigerwald
2019-09-16 18:00 ` Linux 5.3-rc8 Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-09-16 19:53 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-17 15:32 ` Lennart Poettering
2019-09-16 3:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-23 20:49 ` chaos generating driver was " Pavel Machek
2019-09-14 9:25 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-14 16:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-11 21:41 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-11 22:37 ` Ahmed S. Darwish
2019-09-16 3:52 ` Herbert Xu
2019-09-16 4:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-09-16 4:53 ` Willy Tarreau
2019-09-10 11:56 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-16 10:33 ` Christoph Hellwig
2019-10-03 21:10 ` Jon Masters
2019-10-03 21:31 ` Jon Masters
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