Re: reiser4 plugins

[David Masover <ninja@slaphack.com>]

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Jeff Garzik wrote:
> David Masover wrote:
> 
>> There's been sloppy code in the kernel before.  I remember one bit in
>> particular which was commented "Fuck me gently with a chainsaw."  If I
>> remember correctly, this had all of the PCI ids and the names and
>> manufacturers of the corresponding devices -- in a data structure -- in
>> C source code.  It was something like one massive array definition, or
>> maybe it was a structure.  I don't remember exactly, but...
>>
>> The point is, this was in the kernel for quite awhile, and it was so
>> ugly that someone would rather be fucked with a chainsaw.  If something
>> that bad can make it in the kernel and stay for awhile because it
>> worked, and no one wanted to replace it -- nowdays, that database is
>> kept in userland as some nice text format -- then I vote for putting
>> Reiser4 in the kernel now, and ironing the sloppiness ("violation") out
>> later.  It runs now.
> 
> 
> Existence of ugly code is not an excuse to add more.

Maybe not, but I'm making a point.  I'm sure that, at the time, people
wanted something that ran.  They wanted lspci to work.  It was generally
assumed that it would be cleaned up later, and it was.  Too much later,
but it happened, eventually.

I've been reading a bit of history, and the reason Linux got so popular
in the first place was the tendency to include stuff that worked and
provided a feature people wanted, even if it was ugly.  The philosophy
would be:  choose a good implementation over an ugly one, but choose an
ugly one over nothing at all.

> We have to maintain said ugly code for decades.  Maintainability is a
> big deal when you deal with the timeframes we deal with.

Maintainability is like optimization.  The maintainability of a
non-working program is irrelevant.  You'd be right if we already had
plugins-in-the-VFS.  We don't.  The most maintainable solution for
plugins-in-the-FS that actually exists is Reiser4, exactly as it is now
- -- because it is the _only_ one that actually exists right now.

>> So, Reiser4 may eventually take over VFS and be the only Linux
>> filesystem, but if so, it will have to do it much more slowly.  Take the
>> good ideas -- things like plugins -- and make them at least look like
>> incremental updates to the current VFS, and make them available to all
>> filesystems.
> 
> 
> This is how all Linux development is done.
> 
> The code evolves over time.
> 
> You have just described the path ReiserFS needs to take, in order to get
> this stuff into the kernel, in fact.

This is the path it needs to take, long term, for the sanity of
everyone.  But I don't think it can get there without being included,
short term.  People will stomp all over any attempts to change the VFS
as "unproven" and "unneccesary".  Do you think it will be any easier to
get this stuff into the kernel that way?

Better, I think, to drop it in, as-is, and move stuff incrementally from
the FS to the VFS.  That way, there's at least something intermediate
for people to use, test, and hammer/beat down, and for maintainers to
get more comfortable with the idea and the logistics of this beast in
their kernel.

>> And here is the crucial point.  Reiser4 is usable and useful NOW, not
>> after it has undergone massive surgery, and Namesys is bankrupt, and
>> users have given up and moved on to XFS.  But the massive surgery should
>> happen eventually, partly to make all filesystems better (see below),
>> and partly to make the transition easier and more palatable for those
>> who don't work for Namesys.
> 
> 
> We care about technical merit, not some random company's financial
> solvancy.  Reiser4 has layering violations, and doesn't work with the
> current security layer.  Those are two biggies.

Ah, so you mean to say, you care about how well something fits the
current model.  That has little to do with technical merit.

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