[Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Wolfgang Mueller]

*********************************************************
                Call for Presentations
           1st International QEMU Users Forum
        
           March 18th, 2011, Grenoble, France
*********************************************************

Deadlines:
Extended abstract  		Nov 28th, 2010
Notification of acceptance	Nov 30th, 2010

More information is available at: http://adt.cs.upb.de/quf

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1395 bytes --]


On 19.10.2010, at 15:42, Wolfgang Mueller wrote:

> *********************************************************
>                Call for Presentations
>           1st International QEMU Users Forum
> 
>           March 18th, 2011, Grenoble, France
> *********************************************************
> 
> Deadlines:
> Extended abstract  		Nov 28th, 2010
> Notification of acceptance	Nov 30th, 2010

While I appreciate your efforts to organize this event, I would have preferred to see some coordination with the Qemu community before simply announcing an "official" Qemu event.

From what I gathered on your preliminary schedule (http://www.date-conference.com/date11-workshop-W8), the main focus of this event is SystemC integration. I'm not sure this is what I would call a "Users Forum". It sounds more like a want-to-be developer meeting to discuss integration aspects of other projects with Qemu.

This too is a noble goal, but from the announcement you might end up getting real end-users come to this event and be very disappointed, because they would like to hear about command line switches to virtualize on x86 hardware.

So in general, I would really like to see you coordinate better with qemu-devel before announcing something that could potentially work out bad for Qemu's reputation, even if it's meant with good intentions.


Thank You,

Alex


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2211 bytes --]

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[wolfgang mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5373 bytes --]

Dear Alexander Graf,
thank you for contacting me.
I hope that I am right when I understand your below email as a complaint 
that we have not contacted you before organizing
this event.

First of all, we understand our event not as an official QEMU event nor 
have we stated this anywhere or that that we are the
owners of QEMU.

Let me explain about the background of the Workshop.
We as QEMU users, occasionally meet other QEMU users at conferences and 
we observed that the number was significantly growing
during the last years (thanks to the excellent work of the developers). 
We googled for any contacts to other QEMU users and
did neither found any workshop nor any mailing list or anything similar 
we could contact. The only thing we found as a main contact
was Fabrice  Bellard and a huge set of developers (~3000). We saw 
Fabrice Bellard as the "owner" and contacted him. Unfortunately
he rejected as he has no longer interest in QEMU.

As we did not find any current "leader" or dedicated leading group 
beyond the web site, we decided to move on since we were interested
to get the QEMU users together to join efforts and exchange ideas and 
developments (The alternative would have been to contact
all over 3000 QEMU developers and to discuss with them the organization 
of such a event. However, from the first idea to the
possibility to get it accepted in the framework of the DATE conference 
were very few weeks so that we did not see it as a viable
alternative).

I now understand that we obviously missed your role in that community as 
the leader or one of the leaders and qemu-devel@nongnu.org
as the community or part of the community. Therefore, we apologize that 
we did not contact you or qemu-devel@nongnu.org.

However, currently though already very late, we could offer you that you 
can join and and we can list you as a third organizer.
But you have to make an immediate decision as the DATE program will go 
to print in about 10 days. Otherwise you will be only
listed on the web.

Additionally, we are still looking for a person who is giving a general 
45-minute QEMU tutorial/overview. As we were enforce by the
hosting DATE conference to put a name there, please just take it as a 
placeholder for the worst case that we do not find anybody else.
Are you interested or anybody from qemu-devel@nongnu.org?

Finally, I actually do not share your concerns that people register to 
get more information "about command line switches to virtualize
on x86 hardware". I really would expect that people read the programme 
before they register. However, maybe you know the community
better than I do.

For the future, we are currently not planning a second Users' Forum and 
we are open to forward the organization of a second workshop
to anybody else.

Why don't you simply take this event as a first trigger to organize an 
QEMU conference for Developers and users.
We can help you by forwarding the email addresses of some of the people. 
I can also help you if you want.
This can be the start of a real great effort with huge benefit to the 
community.

w.

On 23.11.2010 12:25, Alexander Graf wrote:
>
> On 19.10.2010, at 15:42, Wolfgang Mueller wrote:
>
>> *********************************************************
>>                Call for Presentations
>>           1st International QEMU Users Forum
>>
>>           March 18th, 2011, Grenoble, France
>> *********************************************************
>>
>> Deadlines:
>> Extended abstract Nov 28th, 2010
>> Notification of acceptanceNov 30th, 2010
>
> While I appreciate your efforts to organize this event, I would have 
> preferred to see some coordination with the Qemu community before 
> simply announcing an "official" Qemu event.
>
> From what I gathered on your preliminary schedule 
> (http://www.date-conference.com/date11-workshop-W8), the main focus of 
> this event is SystemC integration. I'm not sure this is what I would 
> call a "Users Forum". It sounds more like a want-to-be developer 
> meeting to discuss integration aspects of other projects with Qemu.
>
> This too is a noble goal, but from the announcement you might end up 
> getting real end-users come to this event and be very disappointed, 
> because they would like to hear about command line switches to 
> virtualize on x86 hardware.
>
> So in general, I would really like to see you coordinate better with 
> qemu-devel before announcing something that could potentially work out 
> bad for Qemu's reputation, even if it's meant with good intentions.
>
>
> Thank You,
>
> Alex
>


-- 
-- wolfgang
_______________________________________________________________________
Wolfgang Mueller          wolfgang@acm.org       adt.cs.upb.de/wolfgang
Paderborn University/C-LAB, Fuerstenallee 11,  33098 Paderborn, Germany
Phone:(++)49-5251.60.6134                       Fax:(++)49-5251.60.6065
_______________________________________________________________________
This message (plus attachments) is  confidential and may be  subject to
lawyer-client privilege. Use without  permission is strictly prohibited

_______________________________________________________________________
Check Springer Verlag for our new book: HdS - Principles and Practice
www.springer.com/engineering/circuits+%26+systems/book/978-1-4020-9435-4
_______________________________________________________________________


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7926 bytes --]

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5969 bytes --]

Wolfgang,

On 25.11.2010, at 11:30, wolfgang mueller wrote:

> Dear Alexander Graf,
> thank you for contacting me. 
> I hope that I am right when I understand your below email as a complaint that we have not contacted you before organizing 
> this event.

The complaint is mostly that you have not approached the community, yes :).

> First of all, we understand our event not as an official QEMU event nor have we stated this anywhere or that that we are the 
> owners of QEMU.
> 
> Let me explain about the background of the Workshop.
> We as QEMU users, occasionally meet other QEMU users at conferences and we observed that the number was significantly growing
> during the last years (thanks to the excellent work of the developers). We googled for any contacts to other QEMU users and 
> did neither found any workshop nor any mailing list or anything similar we could contact. The only thing we found as a main contact 
> was Fabrice  Bellard and a huge set of developers (~3000). We saw Fabrice Bellard as the "owner" and contacted him. Unfortunately 
> he rejected as he has no longer interest in QEMU. 

I guess we should really remove most traces of Fabrice if he isn't even helpful enough to direct you to the mailing list. The maintainer situation should be explained in the MAINTAINERS file in the qemu source tree. Apparently the last attempt to redo that file and make it contain actual current information failed. Sigh.

There is a group of people with commit rights to the source tree. Each of them have special and in general different fields of interest. There are also several submaintainers who keep track of subsystems, but don't have commit rights and route everything through the few people with commit rights.

In general, it's similar to the Linux kernel, but with a schizophrenic Linus.

So the "right thing" to do would have been to send a mail to the qemu-devel mailing list, asking for feedback. The right people definitely do read the list.

> As we did not find any current "leader" or dedicated leading group beyond the web site, we decided to move on since we were interested
> to get the QEMU users together to join efforts and exchange ideas and developments (The alternative would have been to contact
> all over 3000 QEMU developers and to discuss with them the organization of such a event. However, from the first idea to the
> possibility to get it accepted in the framework of the DATE conference were very few weeks so that we did not see it as a viable
> alternative).
> 
> I now understand that we obviously missed your role in that community as the leader or one of the leaders and qemu-devel@nongnu.org
> as the community or part of the community. Therefore, we apologize that we did not contact you or qemu-devel@nongnu.org.

Don't worry about me. I feel myself in general rather representing minorities in qemu. The closest to a "leader" position in qemu these days is probably Anthony Liguori. CC'ing him.

> 
> However, currently though already very late, we could offer you that you can join and and we can list you as a third organizer.
> But you have to make an immediate decision as the DATE program will go to print in about 10 days. Otherwise you will be only
> listed on the web.
> 
> Additionally, we are still looking for a person who is giving a general 45-minute QEMU tutorial/overview. As we were enforce by the
> hosting DATE conference to put a name there, please just take it as a placeholder for the worst case that we do not find anybody else.
> Are you interested or anybody from qemu-devel@nongnu.org? 

This is exactly the reason I approached you sceptic on the whole thing. Qemu is _very_ diverse. It ranges from prototyping non-existing hardware over user-space only emulation to virtualization. Each of the different aspects have their very own issues and traction. The group that's the most active currently is the virtualization crowd. Which target audience are you going for?

> 
> Finally, I actually do not share your concerns that people register to get more information "about command line switches to virtualize 
> on x86 hardware". I really would expect that people read the programme before they register. However, maybe you know the community 
> better than I do.

After checking on the pricing for previous years I agree with you :).

> 
> For the future, we are currently not planning a second Users' Forum and we are open to forward the organization of a second workshop
> to anybody else.
> 
> Why don't you simply take this event as a first trigger to organize an QEMU conference for Developers and users.
> We can help you by forwarding the email addresses of some of the people. I can also help you if you want.
> This can be the start of a real great effort with huge benefit to the community.

As stated above, things are more difficult than that, but I agree. We do have annual KVM Forum meetings where we gather all the virtualization people from Qemu as well and talk about things there. The slides and recordings are publicly available, if you're interested: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/KVM_Forum_2010. In general, people surrounding KVM meet quite a bit.

For the emulation side, things look different. I'm not aware of any traction on the emulation side of Qemu. Getting people together for that one is certainly lacking. I'm not sure I'm the right person to talk to there. If nobody else steps up, I could barely play the role of someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm myself more of a virtualization person too.

So it all boils down to the audience you're expecting. From the announcement and colocation with DATE, I assume you're looking mostly for SystemC integration? That probably plays well into the emulation piece. I don't think that doing yet another 'normal' virtualization focused event would be beneficial - we get plenty of gatherings around that already.


Alex


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7610 bytes --]

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[wolfgang mueller]

Alexander,
the people we are addressing and we would like to bring together is from 
the QEMU emulation community.
We are interested in running different ISAs mainly under Linux and 
Windows versions. There is a huge additional
interest from industry for this part to QEMU for embedded systems/SW 
development. The focus we have chosen
for the DATE conference is SystemC integration with QEMU emulation since 
the embedded systems and SystemC
community meets at DATE so that we expect several people from them to 
attend. However, as already written, we
basically failed to find any indication for contact point for the 
emulation community. Any pointers are highly appreciated.

Virtualization  is not of any interest in that workshop as there if 
course already exists the KVM forum you refered to.
I understood from the available information and contacts that there is a 
common consensus that the QEMU
virtualization community is denoted as "KVM community" and not as "QEMU 
community" which also brings the
difference to the point, right? My understanding so far is that "QEMU 
community" refers mainly to the software emulation
people part.

PS: I have no idea about the number of people who are on the 
qemu-devel@nongnu.org list we are cc'ing.
I hope there are not too many and that they are interested in our 
communication. Otherwise, I apologize.

w.


On 25.11.2010 12:03, Alexander Graf wrote:
> Wolfgang,
>
> On 25.11.2010, at 11:30, wolfgang mueller wrote:
>
>> Dear Alexander Graf,
>> thank you for contacting me.
>> I hope that I am right when I understand your below email as a 
>> complaint that we have not contacted you before organizing
>> this event.
>
> The complaint is mostly that you have not approached the community, 
> yes :).
>
>> First of all, we understand our event not as an official QEMU event 
>> nor have we stated this anywhere or that that we are the
>> owners of QEMU.
>>
>> Let me explain about the background of the Workshop.
>> We as QEMU users, occasionally meet other QEMU users at conferences 
>> and we observed that the number was significantly growing
>> during the last years (thanks to the excellent work of the 
>> developers). We googled for any contacts to other QEMU users and
>> did neither found any workshop nor any mailing list or anything 
>> similar we could contact. The only thing we found as a main contact
>> was Fabrice  Bellard and a huge set of developers (~3000). We saw 
>> Fabrice Bellard as the "owner" and contacted him. Unfortunately
>> he rejected as he has no longer interest in QEMU.
>
> I guess we should really remove most traces of Fabrice if he isn't 
> even helpful enough to direct you to the mailing list. The maintainer 
> situation should be explained in the MAINTAINERS file in the qemu 
> source tree. Apparently the last attempt to redo that file and make it 
> contain actual current information failed. Sigh.
>
> There is a group of people with commit rights to the source tree. Each 
> of them have special and in general different fields of interest. 
> There are also several submaintainers who keep track of subsystems, 
> but don't have commit rights and route everything through the few 
> people with commit rights.
>
> In general, it's similar to the Linux kernel, but with a schizophrenic 
> Linus.
>
> So the "right thing" to do would have been to send a mail to the 
> qemu-devel mailing list, asking for feedback. The right people 
> definitely do read the list.
>
>> As we did not find any current "leader" or dedicated leading group 
>> beyond the web site, we decided to move on since we were interested
>> to get the QEMU users together to join efforts and exchange ideas and 
>> developments (The alternative would have been to contact
>> all over 3000 QEMU developers and to discuss with them the 
>> organization of such a event. However, from the first idea to the
>> possibility to get it accepted in the framework of the DATE 
>> conference were very few weeks so that we did not see it as a viable
>> alternative).
>>
>> I now understand that we obviously missed your role in that community 
>> as the leader or one of the leaders and qemu-devel@nongnu.org
>> as the community or part of the community. Therefore, we apologize 
>> that we did not contact you or qemu-devel@nongnu.org.
>
> Don't worry about me. I feel myself in general rather representing 
> minorities in qemu. The closest to a "leader" position in qemu these 
> days is probably Anthony Liguori. CC'ing him.
>
>>
>> However, currently though already very late, we could offer you that 
>> you can join and and we can list you as a third organizer.
>> But you have to make an immediate decision as the DATE program will 
>> go to print in about 10 days. Otherwise you will be only
>> listed on the web.
>>
>> Additionally, we are still looking for a person who is giving a 
>> general 45-minute QEMU tutorial/overview. As we were enforce by the
>> hosting DATE conference to put a name there, please just take it as a 
>> placeholder for the worst case that we do not find anybody else.
>> Are you interested or anybody from qemu-devel@nongnu.org?
>
> This is exactly the reason I approached you sceptic on the whole 
> thing. Qemu is _very_ diverse. It ranges from prototyping non-existing 
> hardware over user-space only emulation to virtualization. Each of the 
> different aspects have their very own issues and traction. The group 
> that's the most active currently is the virtualization crowd. Which 
> target audience are you going for?
>
>>
>> Finally, I actually do not share your concerns that people register 
>> to get more information "about command line switches to virtualize
>> on x86 hardware". I really would expect that people read the 
>> programme before they register. However, maybe you know the community
>> better than I do.
>
> After checking on the pricing for previous years I agree with you :).
>
>>
>> For the future, we are currently not planning a second Users' Forum 
>> and we are open to forward the organization of a second workshop
>> to anybody else.
>>
>> Why don't you simply take this event as a first trigger to organize 
>> an QEMU conference for Developers and users.
>> We can help you by forwarding the email addresses of some of the 
>> people. I can also help you if you want.
>> This can be the start of a real great effort with huge benefit to the 
>> community.
>
> As stated above, things are more difficult than that, but I agree. We 
> do have annual KVM Forum meetings where we gather all the 
> virtualization people from Qemu as well and talk about things there. 
> The slides and recordings are publicly available, if you're 
> interested: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/KVM_Forum_2010. In general, 
> people surrounding KVM meet quite a bit.
>
> For the emulation side, things look different. I'm not aware of any 
> traction on the emulation side of Qemu. Getting people together for 
> that one is certainly lacking. I'm not sure I'm the right person to 
> talk to there. If nobody else steps up, I could barely play the role 
> of someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm myself more of a 
> virtualization person too.
>
> So it all boils down to the audience you're expecting. From the 
> announcement and colocation with DATE, I assume you're looking mostly 
> for SystemC integration? That probably plays well into the emulation 
> piece. I don't think that doing yet another 'normal' virtualization 
> focused event would be beneficial - we get plenty of gatherings around 
> that already.
>
>
> Alex
>


-- 
-- wolfgang
_______________________________________________________________________
Wolfgang Mueller          wolfgang@acm.org       adt.cs.upb.de/wolfgang
Paderborn University/C-LAB, Fuerstenallee 11,  33098 Paderborn, Germany
Phone:(++)49-5251.60.6134                       Fax:(++)49-5251.60.6065
_______________________________________________________________________
This message (plus attachments) is  confidential and may be  subject to
lawyer-client privilege. Use without  permission is strictly prohibited

_______________________________________________________________________
Check Springer Verlag for our new book: HdS - Principles and Practice
www.springer.com/engineering/circuits+%26+systems/book/978-1-4020-9435-4
_______________________________________________________________________

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Andreas Färber]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1570 bytes --]

Hello,

Am 25.11.2010 um 12:03 schrieb Alexander Graf:

> On 25.11.2010, at 11:30, wolfgang mueller wrote:
>
>> For the future, we are currently not planning a second Users' Forum  
>> and we are open to forward the organization of a second workshop
>> to anybody else.
>>
>> Why don't you simply take this event as a first trigger to organize  
>> an QEMU conference for Developers and users.
>> We can help you by forwarding the email addresses of some of the  
>> people. I can also help you if you want.
>> This can be the start of a real great effort with huge benefit to  
>> the community.
>
> As stated above, things are more difficult than that, but I agree.  
> We do have annual KVM Forum meetings where we gather all the  
> virtualization people from Qemu as well and talk about things there.  
> The slides and recordings are publicly available, if you're  
> interested: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/KVM_Forum_2010. In  
> general, people surrounding KVM meet quite a bit.
>
> For the emulation side, things look different. I'm not aware of any  
> traction on the emulation side of Qemu. Getting people together for  
> that one is certainly lacking. I'm not sure I'm the right person to  
> talk to there. If nobody else steps up, I could barely play the role  
> of someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm myself more of  
> a virtualization person too.

What about doing some kind of QEMU-focussed meeting at FOSDEM 2011?  
That event is much more open to actual users than some academic/ 
commercial conference with registration.

Andreas

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2247 bytes --]

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1679 bytes --]


On 25.11.2010, at 23:53, Andreas Färber wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Am 25.11.2010 um 12:03 schrieb Alexander Graf:
> 
>> On 25.11.2010, at 11:30, wolfgang mueller wrote:
>> 
>>> For the future, we are currently not planning a second Users' Forum and we are open to forward the organization of a second workshop
>>> to anybody else.
>>> 
>>> Why don't you simply take this event as a first trigger to organize an QEMU conference for Developers and users.
>>> We can help you by forwarding the email addresses of some of the people. I can also help you if you want.
>>> This can be the start of a real great effort with huge benefit to the community.
>> 
>> As stated above, things are more difficult than that, but I agree. We do have annual KVM Forum meetings where we gather all the virtualization people from Qemu as well and talk about things there. The slides and recordings are publicly available, if you're interested: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/KVM_Forum_2010. In general, people surrounding KVM meet quite a bit.
>> 
>> For the emulation side, things look different. I'm not aware of any traction on the emulation side of Qemu. Getting people together for that one is certainly lacking. I'm not sure I'm the right person to talk to there. If nobody else steps up, I could barely play the role of someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm myself more of a virtualization person too.
> 
> What about doing some kind of QEMU-focussed meeting at FOSDEM 2011? That event is much more open to actual users than some academic/commercial conference with registration.

That might indeed be interesting. Are the registrations open still?


Alex


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2624 bytes --]

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

Wolfgang,

On 25.11.2010, at 15:54, wolfgang mueller wrote:

> Alexander,
> the people we are addressing and we would like to bring together is from the QEMU emulation community.
> We are interested in running different ISAs mainly under Linux and Windows versions. There is a huge additional

You're about the first person in 1/2 year that actually said you care about Windows hosts. Windows support for example is currently on the verge of getting deprecated, because we're lacking a maintainer.

> interest from industry for this part to QEMU for embedded systems/SW development. The focus we have chosen
> for the DATE conference is SystemC integration with QEMU emulation since the embedded systems and SystemC
> community meets at DATE so that we expect several people from them to attend. However, as already written, we
> basically failed to find any indication for contact point for the emulation community. Any pointers are highly appreciated.

What audience and talks do you expect to receive? I'm still trying to get a full picture on what topics people would be interested in the most.

The main contact point for any qemu discussions is the qemu-devel mailing list. We're a community, so these things should happen as open as possible.

> Virtualization  is not of any interest in that workshop as there if course already exists the KVM forum you refered to.
> I understood from the available information and contacts that there is a common consensus that the QEMU
> virtualization community is denoted as "KVM community" and not as "QEMU community" which also brings the
> difference to the point, right? My understanding so far is that "QEMU community" refers mainly to the software emulation
> people part.

It's very hard to draw a clean line. A lot of people from the "KVM community" are active maintainers of several layers in qemu these days. For example the block layer, PCI devices, PowerPC. The communities are merging. In the mid-term, there shouldn't even be a qemu-kvm fork of qemu anymore. Everybody who does device emulation would just work on upstream qemu, regardless of the intents. The same is happening for the Xen folks too btw. They're slowly moving back towards upstream qemu as well.

> 
> PS: I have no idea about the number of people who are on the qemu-devel@nongnu.org list we are cc'ing.
> I hope there are not too many and that they are interested in our communication. Otherwise, I apologize.

As long as you stick to inline answers and don't top post, I think they'll be very interested in reading this. By CC'ing qemu-devel we're making sure the right people get to read this. I'd assume the major reason we haven't had too many people jump into the discussion as well is because they're all eating turkeys atm :).

So according to my calendar, I should be free on that week. So if you're eager to have a keynote/session from "upstream qemu folks", I'd certainly be interested in doing this. Getting people to contribute back would be so awesome. I'm still getting sad to see qemu getting forked so often (android, vbox, ...).

If however, we find a better candidate (ideas, suggestions anyone?) to give a general session, I'll gladly step back.

The one thing I am not willing to do however, is to pay a 400 € registration fee to have the honor of giving a talk. That just doesn't seem right to me.


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 25.11.2010, at 23:53, Andreas Färber wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Am 25.11.2010 um 12:03 schrieb Alexander Graf:
> 
>> On 25.11.2010, at 11:30, wolfgang mueller wrote:
>> 
>>> For the future, we are currently not planning a second Users' Forum and we are open to forward the organization of a second workshop
>>> to anybody else.
>>> 
>>> Why don't you simply take this event as a first trigger to organize an QEMU conference for Developers and users.
>>> We can help you by forwarding the email addresses of some of the people. I can also help you if you want.
>>> This can be the start of a real great effort with huge benefit to the community.
>> 
>> As stated above, things are more difficult than that, but I agree. We do have annual KVM Forum meetings where we gather all the virtualization people from Qemu as well and talk about things there. The slides and recordings are publicly available, if you're interested: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/KVM_Forum_2010. In general, people surrounding KVM meet quite a bit.
>> 
>> For the emulation side, things look different. I'm not aware of any traction on the emulation side of Qemu. Getting people together for that one is certainly lacking. I'm not sure I'm the right person to talk to there. If nobody else steps up, I could barely play the role of someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm myself more of a virtualization person too.
> 
> What about doing some kind of QEMU-focussed meeting at FOSDEM 2011? That event is much more open to actual users than some academic/commercial conference with registration.

From the fosdem homepage:

  We would like to inform all interested parties that the call for devrooms is running at its end.
  Coming Saturday, 16 October at 23.59 the call for devrooms closes.

So I guess this idea came too late. We will have another KVM/Kernel track during the Chemnitzer Linux Tage next year, but that's not quite the same.


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Jes Sorensen]

On 11/26/10 00:48, Alexander Graf wrote:
> 
> On 25.11.2010, at 23:53, Andreas Färber wrote:
> From the fosdem homepage:
> 
>   We would like to inform all interested parties that the call for devrooms is running at its end.
>   Coming Saturday, 16 October at 23.59 the call for devrooms closes.
> 
> So I guess this idea came too late. We will have another KVM/Kernel track during the Chemnitzer Linux Tage next year, but that's not quite the same.
> 
> 
> Alex

Doing a get together somewhere in Europe really shouldn't be that hard
to organize, however it would probably be useful to have it attached to
a bigger conference to help with the logistics. There is going to be
LinuxCon Europe next year, in Prague I believe, but I don't think it is
before October.

If there is interest, I am happy to talk to the LF people about getting
a QEMU mini-conference attached to it, or we can look for something sooner?

Cheers,
Jes

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 26.11.2010, at 08:56, Jes Sorensen wrote:

> On 11/26/10 00:48, Alexander Graf wrote:
>> 
>> On 25.11.2010, at 23:53, Andreas Färber wrote:
>> From the fosdem homepage:
>> 
>>  We would like to inform all interested parties that the call for devrooms is running at its end.
>>  Coming Saturday, 16 October at 23.59 the call for devrooms closes.
>> 
>> So I guess this idea came too late. We will have another KVM/Kernel track during the Chemnitzer Linux Tage next year, but that's not quite the same.
>> 
>> 
>> Alex
> 
> Doing a get together somewhere in Europe really shouldn't be that hard
> to organize, however it would probably be useful to have it attached to
> a bigger conference to help with the logistics. There is going to be
> LinuxCon Europe next year, in Prague I believe, but I don't think it is
> before October.
> 
> If there is interest, I am happy to talk to the LF people about getting
> a QEMU mini-conference attached to it, or we can look for something sooner?

FOSDEM is in February and has a virtualization devroom, but I'd rather go for something more officially Qemu. The next big thing coming to mind in Europe is Linuxtag in Berlin. That's in May.


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Jes Sorensen]

On 11/26/10 12:53, Alexander Graf wrote:
> 
> On 26.11.2010, at 08:56, Jes Sorensen wrote:
>> Doing a get together somewhere in Europe really shouldn't be that hard
>> to organize, however it would probably be useful to have it attached to
>> a bigger conference to help with the logistics. There is going to be
>> LinuxCon Europe next year, in Prague I believe, but I don't think it is
>> before October.
>>
>> If there is interest, I am happy to talk to the LF people about getting
>> a QEMU mini-conference attached to it, or we can look for something sooner?
> 
> FOSDEM is in February and has a virtualization devroom, but I'd rather go for something more officially Qemu. The next big thing coming to mind in Europe is Linuxtag in Berlin. That's in May.

I don't know LinuxTag that well, never been. Anyone have connection to
the organizers and would it be worth having a QEMU workshop there?

Cheers,
Jes

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 26.11.2010, at 13:29, Jes Sorensen wrote:

> On 11/26/10 12:53, Alexander Graf wrote:
>> 
>> On 26.11.2010, at 08:56, Jes Sorensen wrote:
>>> Doing a get together somewhere in Europe really shouldn't be that hard
>>> to organize, however it would probably be useful to have it attached to
>>> a bigger conference to help with the logistics. There is going to be
>>> LinuxCon Europe next year, in Prague I believe, but I don't think it is
>>> before October.
>>> 
>>> If there is interest, I am happy to talk to the LF people about getting
>>> a QEMU mini-conference attached to it, or we can look for something sooner?
>> 
>> FOSDEM is in February and has a virtualization devroom, but I'd rather go for something more officially Qemu. The next big thing coming to mind in Europe is Linuxtag in Berlin. That's in May.
> 
> I don't know LinuxTag that well, never been. Anyone have connection to
> the organizers and would it be worth having a QEMU workshop there?

I can certainly get in touch with the organizers, but I can't answer the latter question. There are usually at least ~10-20 kernel developers around and it's easy to get most of the German qemu people there too I assume (which is quite a significant number, though mostly kvm focused).


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 25.11.2010, at 15:54, wolfgang mueller wrote:

> Alexander,
> the people we are addressing and we would like to bring together is from the QEMU emulation community.
> We are interested in running different ISAs mainly under Linux and Windows versions. There is a huge additional
> interest from industry for this part to QEMU for embedded systems/SW development. The focus we have chosen
> for the DATE conference is SystemC integration with QEMU emulation since the embedded systems and SystemC
> community meets at DATE so that we expect several people from them to attend. However, as already written, we
> basically failed to find any indication for contact point for the emulation community. Any pointers are highly appreciated.
> 
> Virtualization  is not of any interest in that workshop as there if course already exists the KVM forum you refered to.
> I understood from the available information and contacts that there is a common consensus that the QEMU
> virtualization community is denoted as "KVM community" and not as "QEMU community" which also brings the
> difference to the point, right? My understanding so far is that "QEMU community" refers mainly to the software emulation
> people part.
> 
> PS: I have no idea about the number of people who are on the qemu-devel@nongnu.org list we are cc'ing.
> I hope there are not too many and that they are interested in our communication. Otherwise, I apologize.


Peter, Arnd,

Do you have any interest in representing the qemu community at this event? I just talked to Wolfgang on the phone and apparently this event will be very CPU emulation and embedded focused. Both of you come to mind there because both of you know the processes of qemu, so you could help them out and both of you have some interest in at least ARM.

Please let Wolgang know asap (preferably CC'ing qemu-devel), so we can be assured that someone from the community will make his way there.


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Anthony Liguori]

On 11/26/2010 07:39 AM, Alexander Graf wrote:
>
> I can certainly get in touch with the organizers, but I can't answer the latter question. There are usually at least ~10-20 kernel developers around and it's easy to get most of the German qemu people there too I assume (which is quite a significant number, though mostly kvm focused).
>    

An alternative (or maybe just addition) would be to organize a 
virtualization conference next year instead of just doing another KVM 
Forum.  The idea would be to make it 3 days, have dedicated tracks for 
management (libvirt/Open Stack?), QEMU, and KVM and Xen.

I think as an overall community, we're large enough that we could 
support a pretty sizable conference and I think everyone would benefit 
from being more exposed to other aspects of the stack.

Regards,

Anthony Liguori

> Alex
>
>
>    

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Jes Sorensen]

On 11/26/10 15:13, Anthony Liguori wrote:
> On 11/26/2010 07:39 AM, Alexander Graf wrote:
>>
>> I can certainly get in touch with the organizers, but I can't answer
>> the latter question. There are usually at least ~10-20 kernel
>> developers around and it's easy to get most of the German qemu people
>> there too I assume (which is quite a significant number, though mostly
>> kvm focused).
>>    
> 
> An alternative (or maybe just addition) would be to organize a
> virtualization conference next year instead of just doing another KVM
> Forum.  The idea would be to make it 3 days, have dedicated tracks for
> management (libvirt/Open Stack?), QEMU, and KVM and Xen.
> 
> I think as an overall community, we're large enough that we could
> support a pretty sizable conference and I think everyone would benefit
> from being more exposed to other aspects of the stack.

I would be all in favor of this! Do you want to attach it to another
conference or totally standalone?

Cheers,
Jes

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Anthony Liguori]

On 11/26/2010 08:15 AM, Jes Sorensen wrote:
> I would be all in favor of this! Do you want to attach it to another
> conference or totally standalone?
>    

Attaching is easier logistically but I don't know how much that helps if 
it's a full 3 days instead of just a single day.  Might be worth poking 
the LF folks for some advice.

But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather 
an Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud 
software automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)

Regards,

Anthony Liguori

> Cheers,
> Jes
>
>    

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Peter Maydell]

On 26 November 2010 13:54, Alexander Graf <agraf@suse.de> wrote:
> On 25.11.2010, at 15:54, wolfgang mueller wrote:
>> the people we are addressing and we would like to bring together is from the QEMU emulation community.
>> We are interested in running different ISAs mainly under Linux and Windows versions. There is a huge additional
>> interest from industry for this part to QEMU for embedded systems/SW development. The focus we have chosen
>> for the DATE conference is SystemC integration with QEMU emulation since the embedded systems and SystemC
>> community meets at DATE so that we expect several people from them to attend.

> Peter, Arnd,
>
> Do you have any interest in representing the qemu community at this event? I just talked to Wolfgang on the
> phone and apparently this event will be very CPU emulation and embedded focused. Both of you come to
> mind there because both of you know the processes of qemu, so you could help them out and both of you
> have some interest in at least ARM.

I am planning to attend, yes (although I don't know whether I could claim to
be "representing the qemu community" :-))

-- PMM

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Peter Maydell]

On 26 November 2010 14:21, Anthony Liguori <anthony@codemonkey.ws> wrote:

> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather an
> Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud software
> automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)

Does that breadth include the emulation/TCG side of qemu or only
the virtualisation/KVM side? I'm never quite sure with titles that
just say "Virtualization"...

-- PMM

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 26.11.2010, at 15:21, Anthony Liguori wrote:

> On 11/26/2010 08:15 AM, Jes Sorensen wrote:
>> I would be all in favor of this! Do you want to attach it to another
>> conference or totally standalone?
>>   
> 
> Attaching is easier logistically but I don't know how much that helps if it's a full 3 days instead of just a single day.  Might be worth poking the LF folks for some advice.
> 
> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather an Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud software automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)

In general I like the idea of being close to the Linux kernel folks. Exactly for the collaboration effects. Why not do it similar to how Plumbers and Linuxcon were done last year? Have them follow each other at the same location, so people interested in both can attend both.


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 26.11.2010, at 15:33, Peter Maydell wrote:

> On 26 November 2010 13:54, Alexander Graf <agraf@suse.de> wrote:
>> On 25.11.2010, at 15:54, wolfgang mueller wrote:
>>> the people we are addressing and we would like to bring together is from the QEMU emulation community.
>>> We are interested in running different ISAs mainly under Linux and Windows versions. There is a huge additional
>>> interest from industry for this part to QEMU for embedded systems/SW development. The focus we have chosen
>>> for the DATE conference is SystemC integration with QEMU emulation since the embedded systems and SystemC
>>> community meets at DATE so that we expect several people from them to attend.
> 
>> Peter, Arnd,
>> 
>> Do you have any interest in representing the qemu community at this event? I just talked to Wolfgang on the
>> phone and apparently this event will be very CPU emulation and embedded focused. Both of you come to
>> mind there because both of you know the processes of qemu, so you could help them out and both of you
>> have some interest in at least ARM.
> 
> I am planning to attend, yes (although I don't know whether I could claim to
> be "representing the qemu community" :-))

If you'd agree to play the role, I'll happily nominate you "representative" :). The thing they need there is someone to explain how upstreaming patches works, the architecture and possibilities of Qemu and a friendly face so they want to approach us with their patches.

Since at least the ARM patches would go through your hands either way, you already do fulfill half of what they need. You know about the processes, so you also fulfill the other half. Now the only piece left is the friendly face and I hope you'll manage with that one too :).


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 26.11.2010, at 16:10, Peter Maydell wrote:

> On 26 November 2010 14:21, Anthony Liguori <anthony@codemonkey.ws> wrote:
> 
>> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather an
>> Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud software
>> automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)
> 
> Does that breadth include the emulation/TCG side of qemu or only
> the virtualisation/KVM side? I'm never quite sure with titles that
> just say "Virtualization"...

Historically, virtualization gatherings have been fairly non-tcg friendly. I don't see why we'd have to continue that trend though. A lot of the code actually affects both sides.

I'd assume it's mostly about finding someone who takes on the leading role of the emulation track and who feels responsible for that part of the code.


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Anthony Liguori]

On 11/26/2010 09:15 AM, Alexander Graf wrote:
> On 26.11.2010, at 15:21, Anthony Liguori wrote:
>
>    
>> On 11/26/2010 08:15 AM, Jes Sorensen wrote:
>>      
>>> I would be all in favor of this! Do you want to attach it to another
>>> conference or totally standalone?
>>>
>>>        
>> Attaching is easier logistically but I don't know how much that helps if it's a full 3 days instead of just a single day.  Might be worth poking the LF folks for some advice.
>>
>> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather an Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud software automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)
>>      
> In general I like the idea of being close to the Linux kernel folks. Exactly for the collaboration effects. Why not do it similar to how Plumbers and Linuxcon were done last year? Have them follow each other at the same location, so people interested in both can attend both.
>    

Yeah, but my real goal is to have you (and all of the other KVM folks) 
spend less time with kernel folks and more time with folks in the higher 
level parts of the virtualization stack :-)

I think 10% of our future challenges are how we interact with the 
kernel.  I think we need to focus a bit more on the other 90% 
interactions--I think we have the 10% covered pretty well already.

Regards,

Anthony Liguori

> Alex
>
>    

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[wolfgang mueller]

Dear Peter,
this is really great news.

In this case is it possible to do the introductionary talk of the 
workshop with a QEMU overview.
People are here interested in QEMU CPU (and evtl. device) emulation. 
Most of the attending
people from industry (!) and universities will have ARM 
background/interests.

At the moment we have Frederic Petrot. But this was a tentative solution 
and we would be happy
to have you there with deep knowledge of the development process.

As the final DATE program will go to print end of next week we would 
appreciate if you could inform us in the next days.
Then we also immediately update the web pages.

For this we, of course, can offer you a free registration.
(Early registration fee is 190€ to cover the costs of the DATE host for 
room, beverages, and a seated lunch;
  220€ for late registration)

Best,
wolfgang

On 26.11.2010 15:33, Peter Maydell wrote:
> On 26 November 2010 13:54, Alexander Graf<agraf@suse.de>  wrote:
>> On 25.11.2010, at 15:54, wolfgang mueller wrote:
>>> the people we are addressing and we would like to bring together is from the QEMU emulation community.
>>> We are interested in running different ISAs mainly under Linux and Windows versions. There is a huge additional
>>> interest from industry for this part to QEMU for embedded systems/SW development. The focus we have chosen
>>> for the DATE conference is SystemC integration with QEMU emulation since the embedded systems and SystemC
>>> community meets at DATE so that we expect several people from them to attend.
>> Peter, Arnd,
>>
>> Do you have any interest in representing the qemu community at this event? I just talked to Wolfgang on the
>> phone and apparently this event will be very CPU emulation and embedded focused. Both of you come to
>> mind there because both of you know the processes of qemu, so you could help them out and both of you
>> have some interest in at least ARM.
> I am planning to attend, yes (although I don't know whether I could claim to
> be "representing the qemu community" :-))
>
> -- PMM


-- 
-- wolfgang
_______________________________________________________________________
Wolfgang Mueller          wolfgang@acm.org       adt.cs.upb.de/wolfgang
Paderborn University/C-LAB, Fuerstenallee 11,  33098 Paderborn, Germany
Phone:(++)49-5251.60.6134                       Fax:(++)49-5251.60.6065
_______________________________________________________________________
This message (plus attachments) is  confidential and may be  subject to
lawyer-client privilege. Use without  permission is strictly prohibited

_______________________________________________________________________
Check Springer Verlag for our new book: HdS - Principles and Practice
www.springer.com/engineering/circuits+%26+systems/book/978-1-4020-9435-4
_______________________________________________________________________

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Peter Maydell]

On 26 November 2010 16:34, wolfgang mueller <wolfgang@acm.org> wrote:
> In this case is it possible to do the introductionary talk of the workshop
> with a QEMU overview.
> People are here interested in QEMU CPU (and evtl. device) emulation.
> Most of the attending people from industry (!) and universities will have
> ARM background/interests.

Thanks, but really I feel like I'm just getting started with QEMU
development myself, so I'm not sure I would be the best person
to give a talk like that. I'm sure there's somebody else on the
mailing list who would be better suited.

-- PMM

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 27.11.2010, at 20:00, Peter Maydell <peter.maydell@linaro.org> wrote:

> On 26 November 2010 16:34, wolfgang mueller <wolfgang@acm.org> wrote:
>> In this case is it possible to do the introductionary talk of the workshop
>> with a QEMU overview.
>> People are here interested in QEMU CPU (and evtl. device) emulation.
>> Most of the attending people from industry (!) and universities will have
>> ARM background/interests.
> 
> Thanks, but really I feel like I'm just getting started with QEMU
> development myself, so I'm not sure I would be the best person
> to give a talk like that. I'm sure there's somebody else on the
> mailing list who would be better suited.

My offer stands. If we don't find anyone else, I'll jump in. Generic qemu stuff I can always talk about ;)


Alex

> 

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Nathan Froyd]

On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 11:26:05PM +0100, Alexander Graf wrote:
> On 27.11.2010, at 20:00, Peter Maydell <peter.maydell@linaro.org> wrote:
> > On 26 November 2010 16:34, wolfgang mueller <wolfgang@acm.org> wrote:
> >> In this case is it possible to do the introductionary talk of the workshop
> >> with a QEMU overview.
> >> People are here interested in QEMU CPU (and evtl. device) emulation.
> >> Most of the attending people from industry (!) and universities will have
> >> ARM background/interests.
> > 
> > Thanks, but really I feel like I'm just getting started with QEMU
> > development myself, so I'm not sure I would be the best person
> > to give a talk like that. I'm sure there's somebody else on the
> > mailing list who would be better suited.
> 
> My offer stands. If we don't find anyone else, I'll jump in. Generic
> qemu stuff I can always talk about ;)

I would be happy to come and give an overview talk.  I don't know that
our process for getting in patches that are non-x86+virtualization
related are really that good, but perhaps we can have a discussion about
that so that we have a better story to tell by March. :)

-Nathan

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Frédéric Pétrot]

Hi there,

   IMHO someone from code sourcery would be great, as they (Paul Brooks in the
   older versions, it seems that Nathan is now taking over) are contributing
   most of the ARM emulation stuff.
   We may also have both talks organized one after the other covering both
   topics, but then Wolfgang and I have to see how to fit into the time and
   financial envelops (we can only pay the entrance fee for one people).
   This is now a choice to be made by the qemu-devel people.
   Please try to converge fast, so that we are in time for the DATE booklet.

   Bye,
   Fred

PS: We have indeed ourselves worked on the acceleration of the neon support
    (neon on mmx/sse instead of helpers), but seing that the QEmu community is
    now really kvm oriented (not a criticism, I use virtual box very often and
    we also use kvm in other contexts), we didn't really know how to proceed
    to commit partial additions.



Nathan Froyd a écrit :
> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 11:26:05PM +0100, Alexander Graf wrote:
>> On 27.11.2010, at 20:00, Peter Maydell <peter.maydell@linaro.org> wrote:
>>> On 26 November 2010 16:34, wolfgang mueller <wolfgang@acm.org> wrote:
>>>> In this case is it possible to do the introductionary talk of the workshop
>>>> with a QEMU overview.
>>>> People are here interested in QEMU CPU (and evtl. device) emulation.
>>>> Most of the attending people from industry (!) and universities will have
>>>> ARM background/interests.
>>> Thanks, but really I feel like I'm just getting started with QEMU
>>> development myself, so I'm not sure I would be the best person
>>> to give a talk like that. I'm sure there's somebody else on the
>>> mailing list who would be better suited.
>> My offer stands. If we don't find anyone else, I'll jump in. Generic
>> qemu stuff I can always talk about ;)
> 
> I would be happy to come and give an overview talk.  I don't know that
> our process for getting in patches that are non-x86+virtualization
> related are really that good, but perhaps we can have a discussion about
> that so that we have a better story to tell by March. :)
> 
> -Nathan
> 


-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Frédéric Pétrot, Pr. ENSIMAG-TIMA/SLS   Frederic.Petrot@imag.fr |
| Phone : +33 4 76 57 48 70               Fluctuat  nec  mergitur |
| Mobile: +33 6 74 57 99 65               Ad augusta  per angusta |
| Fax   : +33 4 76 57 49 81               Eppur si muove          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 28.11.2010, at 01:09, Nathan Froyd wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 11:26:05PM +0100, Alexander Graf wrote:
>> On 27.11.2010, at 20:00, Peter Maydell <peter.maydell@linaro.org> wrote:
>>> On 26 November 2010 16:34, wolfgang mueller <wolfgang@acm.org> wrote:
>>>> In this case is it possible to do the introductionary talk of the workshop
>>>> with a QEMU overview.
>>>> People are here interested in QEMU CPU (and evtl. device) emulation.
>>>> Most of the attending people from industry (!) and universities will have
>>>> ARM background/interests.
>>> 
>>> Thanks, but really I feel like I'm just getting started with QEMU
>>> development myself, so I'm not sure I would be the best person
>>> to give a talk like that. I'm sure there's somebody else on the
>>> mailing list who would be better suited.
>> 
>> My offer stands. If we don't find anyone else, I'll jump in. Generic
>> qemu stuff I can always talk about ;)
> 
> I would be happy to come and give an overview talk.  I don't know that
> our process for getting in patches that are non-x86+virtualization
> related are really that good, but perhaps we can have a discussion about
> that so that we have a better story to tell by March. :)

That sounds like a very good solution, yes :). Just join our weekly "community conference call" and we can tell you everything you need to know to give a good overview :).


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

Frederic,

On 28.11.2010, at 09:20, Frédéric Pétrot wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
>   IMHO someone from code sourcery would be great, as they (Paul Brooks in the
>   older versions, it seems that Nathan is now taking over) are contributing
>   most of the ARM emulation stuff.
>   We may also have both talks organized one after the other covering both
>   topics, but then Wolfgang and I have to see how to fit into the time and
>   financial envelops (we can only pay the entrance fee for one people).
>   This is now a choice to be made by the qemu-devel people.
>   Please try to converge fast, so that we are in time for the DATE booklet.

_Please_ don't top post. It's considered very rude. Write your replies inline below the others'. That's what everybody else is doing too.

I agree that Nathan would be a very good fit.

> 
>   Bye,
>   Fred
> 
> PS: We have indeed ourselves worked on the acceleration of the neon support
>    (neon on mmx/sse instead of helpers), but seing that the QEmu community is
>    now really kvm oriented (not a criticism, I use virtual box very often and
>    we also use kvm in other contexts), we didn't really know how to proceed
>    to commit partial additions.

Please don't make the same mistake some other community members make. Without the virtualization folks, qemu would probably be as active as bochs these days (read: dead). Having this huge amount of people actually work on the code base helps qemu in general IMHO. The problem we're facing is that we have too few people actually working on the emulation side, not that too many are working on virtualization issues.

So overall, I don't know of too many "virtualization folks" who are hostile or opponent towards the emulation side of qemu. Quite the contrary. It's been very helpful at times.

The lack of contributions and maintainers for the emulation side is really the fundamental issue. And organizing a conference to tackle that one is a very good idea :).


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Nathan Froyd]

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 09:20:25AM +0100, Frédéric Pétrot wrote:
>    IMHO someone from code sourcery would be great, as they (Paul Brooks in the
>    older versions, it seems that Nathan is now taking over) are contributing
>    most of the ARM emulation stuff.

Well, Paul still knows way more than I do.  I also have not done very
much of the ARM stuff; my focus has been on the MIPS and PowerPC side of
things.  I think Peter has posted more in the way of ARM patches in the
last two weeks than we have done for the last year or so. :) (FWIW, I do
plan to add Reviewed-by tags to those this week.)

>    We may also have both talks organized one after the other covering both
>    topics, but then Wolfgang and I have to see how to fit into the time and
>    financial envelops (we can only pay the entrance fee for one people).
>    This is now a choice to be made by the qemu-devel people.
>    Please try to converge fast, so that we are in time for the DATE booklet.

I'm sorry, what are the "both talks" you refer to above?  Are you
proposing an additional talk alongside your (Frédéric's) existing talk?

-Nathan

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Frédéric Pétrot]

Nathan Froyd a écrit :
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 09:20:25AM +0100, Frédéric Pétrot wrote:
>>    IMHO someone from code sourcery would be great, as they (Paul Brooks in the
>>    older versions, it seems that Nathan is now taking over) are contributing
>>    most of the ARM emulation stuff.
> 
> Well, Paul still knows way more than I do.  I also have not done very
> much of the ARM stuff; my focus has been on the MIPS and PowerPC side of
> things.  I think Peter has posted more in the way of ARM patches in the
> last two weeks than we have done for the last year or so. :) (FWIW, I do
> plan to add Reviewed-by tags to those this week.)
> 
>>    We may also have both talks organized one after the other covering both
>>    topics, but then Wolfgang and I have to see how to fit into the time and
>>    financial envelops (we can only pay the entrance fee for one people).
>>    This is now a choice to be made by the qemu-devel people.
>>    Please try to converge fast, so that we are in time for the DATE booklet.
> 
> I'm sorry, what are the "both talks" you refer to above?  Are you
> proposing an additional talk alongside your (Frédéric's) existing talk?
> -Nathan
>

  No! I am very happy that you take over the introduction of the emulation.
  Indeed I was thinking that Alexander could be willing to introduce i.e. device
  emulation (he'll tell us).

  Can you send a title of yours ? Or shall we keep the same one, as it
  will be along these lines ?

  Frédéric
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Frédéric Pétrot, Pr. ENSIMAG-TIMA/SLS   Frederic.Petrot@imag.fr |
| Phone : +33 4 76 57 48 70               Fluctuat  nec  mergitur |
| Mobile: +33 6 74 57 99 65               Ad augusta  per angusta |
| Fax   : +33 4 76 57 49 81               Eppur si muove          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Frédéric Pétrot, Pr. ENSIMAG-TIMA/SLS   Frederic.Petrot@imag.fr |
| Phone : +33 4 76 57 48 70               Fluctuat  nec  mergitur |
| Mobile: +33 6 74 57 99 65               Ad augusta  per angusta |
| Fax   : +33 4 76 57 49 81               Eppur si muove          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Jes Sorensen]

On 11/26/10 15:21, Anthony Liguori wrote:
> On 11/26/2010 08:15 AM, Jes Sorensen wrote:
>> I would be all in favor of this! Do you want to attach it to another
>> conference or totally standalone?
>>    
> 
> Attaching is easier logistically but I don't know how much that helps if
> it's a full 3 days instead of just a single day.  Might be worth poking
> the LF folks for some advice.
> 
> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather
> an Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud
> software automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)

Well that is definitely worth looking at, question is what continent
would be preferred to have it on?

I'll have a chat with LF to see what the options are.

Cheers,
Jes

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Jes Sorensen]

On 11/26/10 16:19, Alexander Graf wrote:
> 
> On 26.11.2010, at 16:10, Peter Maydell wrote:
> 
>> On 26 November 2010 14:21, Anthony Liguori <anthony@codemonkey.ws> wrote:
>>
>>> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather an
>>> Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud software
>>> automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)
>>
>> Does that breadth include the emulation/TCG side of qemu or only
>> the virtualisation/KVM side? I'm never quite sure with titles that
>> just say "Virtualization"...
> 
> Historically, virtualization gatherings have been fairly non-tcg friendly. I don't see why we'd have to continue that trend though. A lot of the code actually affects both sides.

IMHO it would be good to have focus on broader QEMU collaboration,
including TCG.

Cheers,
Jes

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Stefano Stabellini]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2010, Anthony Liguori wrote:
> On 11/26/2010 08:15 AM, Jes Sorensen wrote:
> > I would be all in favor of this! Do you want to attach it to another
> > conference or totally standalone?
> >    
> 
> Attaching is easier logistically but I don't know how much that helps if 
> it's a full 3 days instead of just a single day.  Might be worth poking 
> the LF folks for some advice.
> 
> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather 
> an Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud 
> software automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)

I personally think is a very good idea.
It is not up to me to decide when and where the next XenSummit is going
to be, but I'll propose the idea...

[Qemu-devel] Re: CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Paolo Bonzini]

On 11/26/2010 03:21 PM, Anthony Liguori wrote:
> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather
> an Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud
> software automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)

That would really be cool, and it would be even more cool if it was in 
Europe. :)  I'd guess that the barycenter of QEMU development is closer 
to Prague than Boston. (ok, the formerly-Qumranet people are biasing the 
stats a bit...)

Paolo

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Alexander Graf]

On 29.11.2010, at 07:43, Frédéric Pétrot wrote:

> Nathan Froyd a écrit :
>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 09:20:25AM +0100, Frédéric Pétrot wrote:
>>>   IMHO someone from code sourcery would be great, as they (Paul Brooks in the
>>>   older versions, it seems that Nathan is now taking over) are contributing
>>>   most of the ARM emulation stuff.
>> 
>> Well, Paul still knows way more than I do.  I also have not done very
>> much of the ARM stuff; my focus has been on the MIPS and PowerPC side of
>> things.  I think Peter has posted more in the way of ARM patches in the
>> last two weeks than we have done for the last year or so. :) (FWIW, I do
>> plan to add Reviewed-by tags to those this week.)
>> 
>>>   We may also have both talks organized one after the other covering both
>>>   topics, but then Wolfgang and I have to see how to fit into the time and
>>>   financial envelops (we can only pay the entrance fee for one people).
>>>   This is now a choice to be made by the qemu-devel people.
>>>   Please try to converge fast, so that we are in time for the DATE booklet.
>> 
>> I'm sorry, what are the "both talks" you refer to above?  Are you
>> proposing an additional talk alongside your (Frédéric's) existing talk?
>> -Nathan
>> 
> 
>  No! I am very happy that you take over the introduction of the emulation.
>  Indeed I was thinking that Alexander could be willing to introduce i.e. device
>  emulation (he'll tell us).
> 
>  Can you send a title of yours ? Or shall we keep the same one, as it
>  will be along these lines ?

I'm not sure I fully understand :). Peter is your man when it comes to ARM. I can give a general overview on qemu and know my way around most subsystems, but I'm not exactly strong in ARM :).

Nathan and Peter, are you two going anyways, despite giving a talk or not?


Alex

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Peter Maydell]

2010/11/29 Alexander Graf <agraf@suse.de>:
> Nathan and Peter, are you two going anyways, despite giving a talk or not?

I will be going regardless, yes.

-- PMM

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Nathan Froyd]

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 02:58:57PM +0100, Alexander Graf wrote:
> > Nathan Froyd a écrit :
> >> I'm sorry, what are the "both talks" you refer to above?  Are you
> >> proposing an additional talk alongside your (Frédéric's) existing talk?
> > 
> >  No! I am very happy that you take over the introduction of the emulation.
> >  Indeed I was thinking that Alexander could be willing to introduce i.e. device
> >  emulation (he'll tell us).
> > 
> >  Can you send a title of yours ? Or shall we keep the same one, as it
> >  will be along these lines ?
> 
> I'm not sure I fully understand :). Peter is your man when it comes to
> ARM. I can give a general overview on qemu and know my way around most
> subsystems, but I'm not exactly strong in ARM :).

I am confused too.  Is Alexander giving the talk, or am I, or some
combination of Alexander/Peter/me?  Or were you (Frédéric) thinking that
Alexander should give a second, separate talk?

> Nathan and Peter, are you two going anyways, despite giving a talk or not?

I'm certainly going to try, yes.

-Nathan

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[Jes Sorensen]

On 11/29/10 08:44, Jes Sorensen wrote:
> On 11/26/10 15:21, Anthony Liguori wrote:
>> Attaching is easier logistically but I don't know how much that helps if
>> it's a full 3 days instead of just a single day.  Might be worth poking
>> the LF folks for some advice.
>>
>> But the key point is breadth, it should not be a "KVM Forum" but rather
>> an Open Virtualization conference with topics as high level as cloud
>> software automation and as low level as asynchronous page faults :-)
> 
> Well that is definitely worth looking at, question is what continent
> would be preferred to have it on?
> 
> I'll have a chat with LF to see what the options are.

Hi,

As promised, I checked with the Linux Foundation about options, and I
have popped it into the following Wiki page:

http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/KVM_Forum_2011

Note that this page is purely for discussion purposes at this point,
nothing has been decided yet! Things may change without warning until a
decision is made and confirmed!

Thanks,
Jes

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[François Revol]

>> the people we are addressing and we would like to bring together is from the QEMU emulation community.
>> We are interested in running different ISAs mainly under Linux and Windows versions. There is a huge additional
> 
> You're about the first person in 1/2 year that actually said you care about Windows hosts. Windows support for example is currently on the verge of getting deprecated, because we're lacking a maintainer.

I suppose windows users are not as much used/interested/involved into free software development workflows, and probably don't bother even lurking on the developer mailing lists. They only shout when something breaks :p

>> interest from industry for this part to QEMU for embedded systems/SW development. The focus we have chosen
>> for the DATE conference is SystemC integration with QEMU emulation since the embedded systems and SystemC
>> community meets at DATE so that we expect several people from them to attend. However, as already written, we
>> basically failed to find any indication for contact point for the emulation community. Any pointers are highly appreciated.
> 
> What audience and talks do you expect to receive? I'm still trying to get a full picture on what topics people would be interested in the most.

From what I understood, since it's part of a scientific event, it's mostly toward the CS scientific community, where conferences have quite specific rules.

> The main contact point for any qemu discussions is the qemu-devel mailing list. We're a community, so these things should happen as open as possible.

The scientific "community" is only starting to grasp the idea of open work, they are more used to do things in their lab and only reveal stuff when it's time to publish, and often do not even talk about what doesn't concern their direct subject research, so often they use/contribute/write software without others knowing.
(it was one of the main subjects of the fOSSa conference this month btw <http://fossa2010.inrialpes.fr/>)

> It's very hard to draw a clean line. A lot of people from the "KVM community" are active maintainers of several layers in qemu these days. For example the block layer, PCI devices, PowerPC. The communities are merging. In the mid-term, there shouldn't even be a qemu-kvm fork of qemu anymore. Everybody who does device emulation would just work on upstream qemu, regardless of the intents. The same is happening for the Xen folks too btw. They're slowly moving back towards upstream qemu as well.

That's good to hear, I only found out about the beagleboard qemu fork months after having to stick to the verdex target while having a overo gumstix hardware :p

As long as patches do not take 3 years to get in like my wacom-tablet fixes ;)

> So according to my calendar, I should be free on that week. So if you're eager to have a keynote/session from "upstream qemu folks", I'd certainly be interested in doing this. Getting people to contribute back would be so awesome. I'm still getting sad to see qemu getting forked so often (android, vbox, ...).
> 
> If however, we find a better candidate (ideas, suggestions anyone?) to give a general session, I'll gladly step back.

As I said to them, I'd be happy to talk about our usage patterns and needs with Haiku development, but I don't know enough of QEMU's internals to detail this.

> The one thing I am not willing to do however, is to pay a 400 € registration fee to have the honor of giving a talk. That just doesn't seem right to me.

As I said, scientific conferences have a quite specific set of rules, one being you pay to talk :p
Usually the labs handle the expense for the attendees, because this gives them exposure.
It's quite different from the FOSDEM or RMLL confs with free entry and best effort speaker reimbursement by sponsors :D

>> What about doing some kind of QEMU-focussed meeting at FOSDEM 2011? That event is much more open to actual users than some academic/commercial conference with registration.
> 
> From the fosdem homepage:
> 
>  We would like to inform all interested parties that the call for devrooms is running at its end.
>  Coming Saturday, 16 October at 23.59 the call for devrooms closes.

Again, the virtualization devroom should give quite a lot of opportunities.

François.

Re: [Qemu-devel] CFP: 1st International QEMU Users Forum

[François Revol]

>>> For the emulation side, things look different. I'm not aware of any traction on the emulation side of Qemu. Getting people together for that one is certainly lacking. I'm not sure I'm the right person to talk to there. If nobody else steps up, I could barely play the role of someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm myself more of a virtualization person too.
>> 
>> What about doing some kind of QEMU-focussed meeting at FOSDEM 2011? That event is much more open to actual users than some academic/commercial conference with registration.
> 
> That might indeed be interesting. Are the registrations open still?

Not for the devrooms proposals, no.
Last year I managed the AltOS devroom, it was really interesting. I actually tried to get some talks about QEMU but I never get any reply btw :^)
I'm way too busy this year to even think about it.

However the CFP from the selected devroom themselves are mostly open:
http://fosdem.org/2011/call_for_participation
It might be possible to sneak in the embedded devroom for example, or the virtualization one which seems to be quite on topic. They cite OSZOO topic, I might try a talk about haiku.php I suppose.

François.