From: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" <mtk.manpages@gmail.com> To: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, arnd@arndb.de, ebiederm@xmission.com, gnomes@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk, teg@jklm.no, jkosina@suse.cz, luto@amacapital.net, linux-api@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Cc: mtk.manpages@gmail.com, daniel@zonque.or, dh.herrmann@gmail.com, tixxdz@opendz.org, Daniel Mack <daniel@zonque.org>, Johannes Stezenbach <js@sig21.net> Subject: Re: [PATCH 01/13] kdbus: add documentation Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 14:53:12 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <54BE5DC8.70706@gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <1421435777-25306-2-git-send-email-gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> On 01/16/2015 08:16 PM, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote: > From: Daniel Mack <daniel@zonque.org> > > kdbus is a system for low-latency, low-overhead, easy to use > interprocess communication (IPC). > > The interface to all functions in this driver is implemented via ioctls > on files exposed through a filesystem called 'kdbusfs'. The default > mount point of kdbusfs is /sys/fs/kdbus. This patch adds detailed > documentation about the kernel level API design. I have some details feedback on the contents of this file, and some bigger questions. I'll split them out into separate mails. So here, the bigger, general questions to start with. I've arrived late to this, so sorry if they've already been discussed, but the answers to some of the questions should actually be in this file, I would have expected. This is an enormous and complex API. Why is the API ioctl() based, rather than system-call-based? Have we learned nothing from the hydra that the futex() multiplexing syscall became? (And kdbus is an order of magnitude more complex, by the look of things.) At the very least, a *good* justification of why the API is ioctl()-based should be part of this documentation file. An observation: The documentation below is substantial, but this API is enormous, so the documentation still feels rather thin. What would really help would be some example code in the doc. And on the subject of code examples... Are there any (prototype) working user-space applications that exercise the current kdbus implementation? That is, can I install these kdbus patches, and then find a simple example application somewhere that does something to exercise kdbus? And then: is there any substantial real-world application (e.g., a full D-Bus port) that is being developed in tandem with this kernel side patch? (I don't mean a user-space library; I mean a seriously large application.) This is an incredibly complex API whose failings are only going to become evident through real-world use. Solidifying an API in the kernel and then discovering the API problems later when writing real-world applications would make for a sad story. A story something like that of inotify, an API which is an order of magnitude less complex than kdbus. (I can't help but feel that many of inotify problems that I discuss at https://lwn.net/Articles/605128/ might have been fixed or mitigated if a few real-world applications had been implemented before the API was set in stone.) > +For a kdbus specific userspace library implementation please refer to: > + http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/systemd/sd-bus.h Is this library intended just for systemd? More generally, is there an intention to provide a general purpose library API for kdbus? Or is the intention that each application will roll a library suitable to its needs? I think an answer to that question would be useful in this Documentation file. Cheers, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" <mtk.manpages-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> To: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh-hQyY1W1yCW8ekmWlsbkhG0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>, arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org, ebiederm-aS9lmoZGLiVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org, gnomes-qBU/x9rampVanCEyBjwyrvXRex20P6io@public.gmane.org, teg-B22kvLQNl6c@public.gmane.org, jkosina-AlSwsSmVLrQ@public.gmane.org, luto-kltTT9wpgjJwATOyAt5JVQ@public.gmane.org, linux-api-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org, linux-kernel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org Cc: mtk.manpages-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, daniel-cYrQPVfZooxQFI55V6+gNQ@public.gmane.org, dh.herrmann-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, tixxdz-Umm1ozX2/EEdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org, Daniel Mack <daniel-cYrQPVfZoowdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>, Johannes Stezenbach <js-FF7aIK3TAVNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> Subject: Re: [PATCH 01/13] kdbus: add documentation Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 14:53:12 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <54BE5DC8.70706@gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <1421435777-25306-2-git-send-email-gregkh-hQyY1W1yCW8ekmWlsbkhG0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org> On 01/16/2015 08:16 PM, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote: > From: Daniel Mack <daniel-cYrQPVfZoowdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> > > kdbus is a system for low-latency, low-overhead, easy to use > interprocess communication (IPC). > > The interface to all functions in this driver is implemented via ioctls > on files exposed through a filesystem called 'kdbusfs'. The default > mount point of kdbusfs is /sys/fs/kdbus. This patch adds detailed > documentation about the kernel level API design. I have some details feedback on the contents of this file, and some bigger questions. I'll split them out into separate mails. So here, the bigger, general questions to start with. I've arrived late to this, so sorry if they've already been discussed, but the answers to some of the questions should actually be in this file, I would have expected. This is an enormous and complex API. Why is the API ioctl() based, rather than system-call-based? Have we learned nothing from the hydra that the futex() multiplexing syscall became? (And kdbus is an order of magnitude more complex, by the look of things.) At the very least, a *good* justification of why the API is ioctl()-based should be part of this documentation file. An observation: The documentation below is substantial, but this API is enormous, so the documentation still feels rather thin. What would really help would be some example code in the doc. And on the subject of code examples... Are there any (prototype) working user-space applications that exercise the current kdbus implementation? That is, can I install these kdbus patches, and then find a simple example application somewhere that does something to exercise kdbus? And then: is there any substantial real-world application (e.g., a full D-Bus port) that is being developed in tandem with this kernel side patch? (I don't mean a user-space library; I mean a seriously large application.) This is an incredibly complex API whose failings are only going to become evident through real-world use. Solidifying an API in the kernel and then discovering the API problems later when writing real-world applications would make for a sad story. A story something like that of inotify, an API which is an order of magnitude less complex than kdbus. (I can't help but feel that many of inotify problems that I discuss at https://lwn.net/Articles/605128/ might have been fixed or mitigated if a few real-world applications had been implemented before the API was set in stone.) > +For a kdbus specific userspace library implementation please refer to: > + http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/systemd/sd-bus.h Is this library intended just for systemd? More generally, is there an intention to provide a general purpose library API for kdbus? Or is the intention that each application will roll a library suitable to its needs? I think an answer to that question would be useful in this Documentation file. Cheers, Michael -- Michael Kerrisk Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-01-20 13:53 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 143+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2015-01-16 19:16 [PATCH v3 00/13] Add kdbus implementation Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 01/13] kdbus: add documentation Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-20 13:53 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) [this message] 2015-01-20 13:53 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-20 14:31 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-20 14:31 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-20 14:42 ` Josh Boyer 2015-01-20 14:42 ` Josh Boyer 2015-01-20 14:53 ` Djalal Harouni 2015-01-20 14:53 ` Djalal Harouni 2015-01-20 16:08 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-20 17:00 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-20 17:00 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-20 22:00 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-20 22:00 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-21 10:28 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-21 10:28 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-20 18:23 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-20 18:23 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-21 10:32 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-21 10:32 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-21 15:19 ` Theodore Ts'o 2015-01-21 15:19 ` Theodore Ts'o 2015-01-21 16:58 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-21 16:58 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-22 10:18 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-22 10:18 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-22 13:46 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-22 13:46 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-22 14:49 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn 2015-01-23 16:08 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-26 14:46 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-26 14:46 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-27 15:05 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-27 15:05 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-27 16:03 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-01-27 16:03 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-01-29 8:53 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-29 8:53 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-29 11:25 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-01-29 11:42 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-29 12:09 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-02 9:34 ` Daniel Mack 2015-02-02 9:34 ` Daniel Mack 2015-02-02 20:12 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-02 20:12 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-03 10:09 ` Daniel Mack 2015-02-03 10:09 ` Daniel Mack 2015-02-04 0:41 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-04 0:41 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-04 2:47 ` Eric W. Biederman 2015-02-04 2:47 ` Eric W. Biederman 2015-02-04 3:14 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-02-04 3:14 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-02-04 6:30 ` Eric W. Biederman 2015-02-04 6:30 ` Eric W. Biederman 2015-02-04 23:03 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-04 23:03 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-05 0:16 ` David Herrmann 2015-02-08 16:54 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-02-08 16:54 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-01-27 18:03 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-27 18:03 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-23 11:47 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-23 11:47 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-23 15:54 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-23 15:54 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-26 14:42 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-26 14:42 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-26 15:26 ` Tom Gundersen 2015-01-26 16:44 ` christoph Hellwig 2015-01-26 16:44 ` christoph Hellwig 2015-01-26 16:45 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-27 15:23 ` David Herrmann 2015-01-27 17:53 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-27 18:14 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-27 18:14 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-28 10:46 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-20 13:58 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-20 13:58 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-20 17:50 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-21 8:57 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-21 8:57 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-21 9:07 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-21 9:07 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-21 9:07 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-21 9:12 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-21 9:12 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-23 6:28 ` Ahmed S. Darwish 2015-01-23 6:28 ` Ahmed S. Darwish 2015-01-23 13:19 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-23 13:29 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-23 13:29 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-25 3:30 ` Ahmed S. Darwish 2015-01-25 3:30 ` Ahmed S. Darwish 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 02/13] kdbus: add header file Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 03/13] kdbus: add driver skeleton, ioctl entry points and utility functions Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 04/13] kdbus: add connection pool implementation Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 05/13] kdbus: add connection, queue handling and message validation code Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 06/13] kdbus: add node and filesystem implementation Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 07/13] kdbus: add code to gather metadata Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 08/13] kdbus: add code for notifications and matches Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 09/13] kdbus: add code for buses, domains and endpoints Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 10/13] kdbus: add name registry implementation Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 11/13] kdbus: add policy database implementation Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 12/13] kdbus: add Makefile, Kconfig and MAINTAINERS entry Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 19:16 ` [PATCH 13/13] kdbus: add selftests Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-16 22:07 ` [PATCH v3 00/13] Add kdbus implementation Josh Boyer 2015-01-16 22:07 ` Josh Boyer 2015-01-16 22:18 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-17 0:26 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-17 0:26 ` Daniel Mack 2015-01-17 0:41 ` Josh Boyer 2015-01-17 0:41 ` Josh Boyer 2015-01-19 18:06 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-19 18:06 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-19 18:38 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-19 20:19 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-19 20:19 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-19 20:31 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-19 23:38 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-19 23:38 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-20 1:13 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-20 1:13 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-20 10:57 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-20 11:26 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-20 11:26 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2015-01-20 13:24 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-20 13:24 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-20 14:12 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-26 21:32 ` One Thousand Gnomes 2015-01-26 21:32 ` One Thousand Gnomes 2015-01-19 18:33 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-19 18:33 ` Johannes Stezenbach 2015-01-20 14:05 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-20 14:05 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) 2015-01-20 14:15 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
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