* maxpct option for small xfs filesystems @ 2015-01-26 16:14 Alexander Tsvetkov 2015-01-26 22:37 ` Dave Chinner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Alexander Tsvetkov @ 2015-01-26 16:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: xfs Hello, I'm trying to understand the expected behaviour of "maxpct" option in case of small xfs filesystem comparing the maximum percentage defined for this option with the percentage of actually allocated inodes in filesystem, but the result of prepared test case doesn't correspond to the expectations: [root@fedora ~]#mkfs.xfs -f -d size=16m -i maxpct=1 /dev/sdb2 [root@fedora ~]# mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt/scratch/ [root@fedora ~]# mount | grep scratch /dev/sdb2 on /mnt/scratch type xfs (rw,relatime,seclabel,attr2,inode64,noquota) [root@fedora ~]# xfs_info /mnt/scratch/ meta-data=/dev/sdb2 isize=256 agcount=1, agsize=4096 blks = sectsz=512 attr=2, projid32bit=1 = crc=0 finobt=0 data = bsize=4096 blocks=4096, imaxpct=1 = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 ftype=0 log =internal bsize=4096 blocks=853, version=2 = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0 then trying to fill filesystem with lot of empty files until enospc obtained and break the loop: [root@fedora ~]# for i in {0..100000}; do str=$(mktemp --tmpdir=/mnt/scratch tmp.XXXXXXXXXX); echo $str; done filesystem is full with created files: [root@fedora ~]# df -Th | grep scratch /dev/sdb2 xfs 13M 13M 148K 99% /mnt/scratch and from the number of actually created inodes: [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l 40512 it's calculated the space allocated for file inodes 9.9Mb (40512*256b inode size) that is about 77% of filesystem space instead of defined maximum with maxpct=1% or even default 25% value. Thanks, Alexander Tsvetkov _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: maxpct option for small xfs filesystems 2015-01-26 16:14 maxpct option for small xfs filesystems Alexander Tsvetkov @ 2015-01-26 22:37 ` Dave Chinner 2015-01-27 16:23 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Dave Chinner @ 2015-01-26 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alexander Tsvetkov; +Cc: xfs On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 07:14:43PM +0300, Alexander Tsvetkov wrote: > Hello, > > I'm trying to understand the expected behaviour of "maxpct" option > in case of small xfs filesystem > comparing the maximum percentage defined for this option with the > percentage of actually allocated > inodes in filesystem, but the result of prepared test case doesn't > correspond to the expectations: > > [root@fedora ~]#mkfs.xfs -f -d size=16m -i maxpct=1 /dev/sdb2 On 3.19-rc5, immediately after mount: # df -i /mnt/scratch Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on /dev/ram1 640 3 637 1% /mnt/scratch Which indicates that imaxpct=1 is being calculated correctly, before we even look at whether it is being enforced correctly or not. So, what kernel version? http://xfs.org/index.php/XFS_FAQ#Q:_What_information_should_I_include_when_reporting_a_problem.3F > [root@fedora ~]# for i in {0..100000}; do str=$(mktemp > --tmpdir=/mnt/scratch tmp.XXXXXXXXXX); echo $str; done Which is a complex (and very slow!) way of doing: # for i in {0..100000}; do echo > /mnt/scratch/$i ; done 2> /dev/null > filesystem is full with created files: > > [root@fedora ~]# df -Th | grep scratch > /dev/sdb2 xfs 13M 13M 148K 99% /mnt/scratch # df -Th /mnt/scratch Filesystem Type Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/ram1 xfs 13M 1.1M 12M 9% /mnt/scratch # df -i /mnt/scratch Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on /dev/ram1 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch > and from the number of actually created inodes: > > [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l > 40512 That's a directory structure entry count, equivalent to 'find /mnt/scratch | wc -l', not an allocated inode count which is what 'df -i' reports. Even so, on 3.19-rc5: # xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/ram1 | wc -l 637 which matches what 'df -i' tells us about allocated inodes and hence imaxpct is working as expected. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Chinner david@fromorbit.com _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: maxpct option for small xfs filesystems 2015-01-26 22:37 ` Dave Chinner @ 2015-01-27 16:23 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 2015-01-27 16:31 ` Eric Sandeen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Alexander Tsvetkov @ 2015-01-27 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Chinner; +Cc: xfs On 01/27/2015 01:37 AM, Dave Chinner wrote: > On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 07:14:43PM +0300, Alexander Tsvetkov wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I'm trying to understand the expected behaviour of "maxpct" option >> in case of small xfs filesystem >> comparing the maximum percentage defined for this option with the >> percentage of actually allocated >> inodes in filesystem, but the result of prepared test case doesn't >> correspond to the expectations: >> >> [root@fedora ~]#mkfs.xfs -f -d size=16m -i maxpct=1 /dev/sdb2 > On 3.19-rc5, immediately after mount: > > # df -i /mnt/scratch > Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on > /dev/ram1 640 3 637 1% /mnt/scratch > > Which indicates that imaxpct=1 is being calculated correctly, before > we even look at whether it is being enforced correctly or not. > > So, what kernel version? > > http://xfs.org/index.php/XFS_FAQ#Q:_What_information_should_I_include_when_reporting_a_problem.3F I use Fedora20 on vbox virtual machine with latest kernel version available from fedora repos: 3.17.8-200.fc20.x86_64 and xfsprogs-3.2.1-1.fc20.x86_64. /dev/sdb test storage is of VDI format, fixed size: [root@fedora ~]# fdisk -l Disk /dev/sda: 10.3 GiB, 11005845504 bytes, 21495792 sectors Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disk label type: dos Disk identifier: 0x000011de Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2048 1026047 512000 83 Linux /dev/sda2 1026048 20469759 9721856 83 Linux /dev/sda3 20469760 21493759 512000 82 Linux swap / Solaris Disk /dev/sdb: 8 GiB, 8589934592 bytes, 16777216 sectors Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disklabel type: dos Disk identifier: 0x00006ee7 Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sdb1 2048 8390655 4194304 83 Linux /dev/sdb2 8390656 16777215 4193280 83 Linux >> [root@fedora ~]# for i in {0..100000}; do str=$(mktemp >> --tmpdir=/mnt/scratch tmp.XXXXXXXXXX); echo $str; done > Which is a complex (and very slow!) way of doing: > > # for i in {0..100000}; do echo > /mnt/scratch/$i ; done 2> /dev/null > >> filesystem is full with created files: >> >> [root@fedora ~]# df -Th | grep scratch >> /dev/sdb2 xfs 13M 13M 148K 99% /mnt/scratch > # df -Th /mnt/scratch > Filesystem Type Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on > /dev/ram1 xfs 13M 1.1M 12M 9% /mnt/scratch > # df -i /mnt/scratch > Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on > /dev/ram1 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch > >> and from the number of actually created inodes: >> >> [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l >> 40512 > That's a directory structure entry count, equivalent to 'find > /mnt/scratch | wc -l', not an allocated inode count which is what > 'df -i' reports. manual page for xfs_db ncheck says about inode numbers not a directory entry numbers: "ncheck [-s] [-i ino] Print name-inode pairs" > Even so, on 3.19-rc5: > > # xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/ram1 | wc -l > 637 > > which matches what 'df -i' tells us about allocated inodes and hence > imaxpct is working as expected. I have not the same results, just installed 3.19-rc6 and repeated the test, df -i reports 640 inodes for filesystem, but actually created 40512 files: [root@fedora ~]# mkfs.xfs -f -d size=16m -i maxpct=1 /dev/sdb2 meta-data=/dev/sdb2 isize=256 agcount=1, agsize=4096 blks = sectsz=512 attr=2, projid32bit=1 = crc=0 finobt=0 data = bsize=4096 blocks=4096, imaxpct=1 = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 ftype=0 log =internal log bsize=4096 blocks=853, version=2 = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0 [root@fedora ~]# mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt/scratch/ fill with files until enospc... [root@fedora ~]# df -i /mnt/scratch/ Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on /dev/sdb2 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# df -Th /mnt/scratch/ Filesystem Type Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/sdb2 xfs 13M 13M 156K 99% /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# umount /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l 40512 Looking into ncheck output there are 40512 pairs reported in the output each with own unique inode number. ncheck doesn't report inodes count by definition, but what does these 40512 reported inode numbers mean if only actually 640 inodes were allocated? From another hand each new file should have associated meta-data in the corresponding allocated inode structure, so for 40512 newly created files I expect the same count of allocated inodes, is it correct? > Cheers, > > Dave. Thanks, Alexander Tsvetkov _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: maxpct option for small xfs filesystems 2015-01-27 16:23 ` Alexander Tsvetkov @ 2015-01-27 16:31 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-27 19:15 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-28 10:41 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Eric Sandeen @ 2015-01-27 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alexander Tsvetkov, Dave Chinner; +Cc: xfs On 1/27/15 10:23 AM, Alexander Tsvetkov wrote: ... > I have not the same results, just installed 3.19-rc6 and repeated the test., > df -i reports 640 inodes for filesystem, but actually created 40512 files: > > [root@fedora ~]# mkfs.xfs -f -d size=16m -i maxpct=1 /dev/sdb2 > meta-data=/dev/sdb2 isize=256 agcount=1, agsize=4096 blks > = sectsz=512 attr=2, projid32bit=1 > = crc=0 finobt=0 > data = bsize=4096 blocks=4096, imaxpct=1 > = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks > naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 ftype=0 > log =internal log bsize=4096 blocks=853, version=2 > = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 > realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0 > [root@fedora ~]# mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt/scratch/ > fill with files until enospc... > [root@fedora ~]# df -i /mnt/scratch/ > Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on > /dev/sdb2 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch > [root@fedora ~]# df -Th /mnt/scratch/ > Filesystem Type Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on > /dev/sdb2 xfs 13M 13M 156K 99% /mnt/scratch > [root@fedora ~]# umount /mnt/scratch > [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l > 40512 and what does df -i say after remount? This is actually a problem with the lazy superblock counters I've run into before, but haven't yet fixed. This kind of workload is such that it never trips the runtime rebalancing. > Looking into ncheck output there are 40512 pairs reported in the output each with own unique > inode number. ncheck doesn't report inodes count by definition, but what does these > 40512 reported inode numbers mean if only actually 640 inodes were allocated? From another hand > each new file should have associated meta-data in the corresponding allocated inode structure, so for > 40512 newly created files I expect the same count of allocated inodes, is it correct? Recheck df -i after remount, I think you will see many more than 640. -Eric _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: maxpct option for small xfs filesystems 2015-01-27 16:31 ` Eric Sandeen @ 2015-01-27 19:15 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-28 10:41 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Eric Sandeen @ 2015-01-27 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alexander Tsvetkov, Dave Chinner; +Cc: xfs On 1/27/15 10:31 AM, Eric Sandeen wrote: > This is actually a problem with the lazy superblock counters I've run into before, > but haven't yet fixed. This kind of workload is such that it never trips the > runtime rebalancing. working on a fix now ;) -Eric _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: maxpct option for small xfs filesystems 2015-01-27 16:31 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-27 19:15 ` Eric Sandeen @ 2015-01-28 10:41 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 2015-01-28 15:44 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-28 18:05 ` Eric Sandeen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Alexander Tsvetkov @ 2015-01-28 10:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eric Sandeen, Dave Chinner; +Cc: xfs On 01/27/2015 07:31 PM, Eric Sandeen wrote: > On 1/27/15 10:23 AM, Alexander Tsvetkov wrote: > > ... > >> I have not the same results, just installed 3.19-rc6 and repeated the test., >> df -i reports 640 inodes for filesystem, but actually created 40512 files: >> >> [root@fedora ~]# mkfs.xfs -f -d size=16m -i maxpct=1 /dev/sdb2 >> meta-data=/dev/sdb2 isize=256 agcount=1, agsize=4096 blks >> = sectsz=512 attr=2, projid32bit=1 >> = crc=0 finobt=0 >> data = bsize=4096 blocks=4096, imaxpct=1 >> = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks >> naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 ftype=0 >> log =internal log bsize=4096 blocks=853, version=2 >> = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 >> realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0 >> [root@fedora ~]# mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt/scratch/ >> fill with files until enospc... >> [root@fedora ~]# df -i /mnt/scratch/ >> Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on >> /dev/sdb2 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch >> [root@fedora ~]# df -Th /mnt/scratch/ >> Filesystem Type Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on >> /dev/sdb2 xfs 13M 13M 156K 99% /mnt/scratch >> [root@fedora ~]# umount /mnt/scratch >> [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l >> 40512 > and what does df -i say after remount? Nothing changed after remount: [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l 40512 [root@fedora ~]# mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt/scratch/ [root@fedora ~]# xfs_info /mnt/scratch/ meta-data=/dev/sdb2 isize=256 agcount=1, agsize=4096 blks = sectsz=512 attr=2, projid32bit=1 = crc=0 finobt=0 data = bsize=4096 blocks=4096, imaxpct=1 = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 ftype=0 log =internal bsize=4096 blocks=853, version=2 = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0 [root@fedora ~]# df -i /mnt/scratch/ Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on /dev/sdb2 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# umount /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l 40512 [root@fedora ~]# mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt/scratch/ [root@fedora ~]# df -i /mnt/scratch/ Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on /dev/sdb2 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# mount -o remount /dev/sdb2 /mnt/scratch/ [root@fedora ~]# df -i /mnt/scratch/ Filesystem Inodes IUsed IFree IUse% Mounted on /dev/sdb2 640 640 0 100% /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# umount /mnt/scratch [root@fedora ~]# xfs_db -c "blockget -n" -c "ncheck" /dev/sdb2 | wc -l 40512 > > This is actually a problem with the lazy superblock counters I've run into before, > but haven't yet fixed. This kind of workload is such that it never trips the > runtime rebalancing. > >> Looking into ncheck output there are 40512 pairs reported in the output each with own unique >> inode number. ncheck doesn't report inodes count by definition, but what does these >> 40512 reported inode numbers mean if only actually 640 inodes were allocated? From another hand >> each new file should have associated meta-data in the corresponding allocated inode structure, so for >> 40512 newly created files I expect the same count of allocated inodes, is it correct? > Recheck df -i after remount, I think you will see many more than 640. Do you mean that ncheck reports right number of allocated inodes instead of df -i? If counters are incorrect then the maxpct limit is not working as well, because there are much more of filesystem space allocated for inodes then defined limit 1%. What is expected behaviour in this case when it's required for fs to allocate new inodes starting to exceed defined maxpct percentage? Which error is expected to be returned to user, enospc or probably just some warning? > > -Eric Thanks, Alexander Tsvetkov _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: maxpct option for small xfs filesystems 2015-01-28 10:41 ` Alexander Tsvetkov @ 2015-01-28 15:44 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-28 18:05 ` Eric Sandeen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Eric Sandeen @ 2015-01-28 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alexander Tsvetkov, Dave Chinner; +Cc: xfs On 1/28/15 4:41 AM, Alexander Tsvetkov wrote: ... >> and what does df -i say after remount? > Nothing changed after remount: Sorry, I misremembered the problem. :( ... >> >> This is actually a problem with the lazy superblock counters I've run into before, >> but haven't yet fixed. This kind of workload is such that it never trips the >> runtime rebalancing. >> >>> Looking into ncheck output there are 40512 pairs reported in the output each with own unique >>> inode number. ncheck doesn't report inodes count by definition, but what does these >>> 40512 reported inode numbers mean if only actually 640 inodes were allocated? From another hand >>> each new file should have associated meta-data in the corresponding allocated inode structure, so for >>> 40512 newly created files I expect the same count of allocated inodes, is it correct? >> Recheck df -i after remount, I think you will see many more than 640. > Do you mean that ncheck reports right number of allocated inodes instead of df -i? If counters are incorrect then the > maxpct limit is not working as well, because there are much more of filesystem space allocated for inodes then defined limit 1%. > > What is expected behaviour in this case when it's required for fs to allocate new inodes starting to exceed defined maxpct > percentage? Which error is expected to be returned to user, enospc or probably just some warning? There are a couple of things going on here. XFS superblock counters are kept in per-cpu variables for scalability; at certain times these per-cpu counts are coalesced into a global counter based on various thresholds. The thing about the inode counter is that it generally counts up, and it's the high thresholds that we care about (in order to determine if we've hit maxpct), but it's written as one of the low-threshold counters (as with free inodes / free space). So in your test, you're rapidly running up the counter on a single cpu, and it's not getting coalesced into the main counter, which is where the imaxpct test happens. So that's why you're able to exceed imaxpct. The df -i (statfs) output is wrong because of a bug in xfs_fs_statfs. For a filesystem like XFS which dynamically allocates and deallocates inodes, it's a little tricky to answer the question "how many inodes are available?" It's limited by free space as well as by imaxpct. There's code in there which does this: if (mp->m_maxicount) statp->f_files = min_t(typeof(statp->f_files), statp->f_files, mp->m_maxicount); so it will never report more than mp->m_maxicount, which is essentially the imaxpct limit, even if we've actually allocated more than that. A simple fix for this is to recognize that imaxpct is something of a soft limit (it's not critical if we overrun by a few hundred or even thousand inodes), and if the superblock counter of allocated inodes (sbp->sb_icount) exceeds mp->m_maxicount due to such an overrun, we should report that (true) value instead. I'm working on a couple of patches which should fix both issues. -Eric _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: maxpct option for small xfs filesystems 2015-01-28 10:41 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 2015-01-28 15:44 ` Eric Sandeen @ 2015-01-28 18:05 ` Eric Sandeen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Eric Sandeen @ 2015-01-28 18:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alexander Tsvetkov, Dave Chinner; +Cc: xfs On 1/28/15 4:41 AM, Alexander Tsvetkov wrote: > What is expected behaviour in this case when it's required for fs to allocate new inodes starting to exceed defined maxpct > percentage? Which error is expected to be returned to user, enospc or probably just some warning? Sorry, I didn't answer this. ENOSPC is expected. There's not a lot of value in enforcing this strictly to the last inode, because a % is fairly coarse anyway, but we should not blow right past it as we do today. -Eric _______________________________________________ xfs mailing list xfs@oss.sgi.com http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-01-28 18:05 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2015-01-26 16:14 maxpct option for small xfs filesystems Alexander Tsvetkov 2015-01-26 22:37 ` Dave Chinner 2015-01-27 16:23 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 2015-01-27 16:31 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-27 19:15 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-28 10:41 ` Alexander Tsvetkov 2015-01-28 15:44 ` Eric Sandeen 2015-01-28 18:05 ` Eric Sandeen
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