From: "PaX Team" <pageexec@freemail.hu> To: "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> Cc: kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com, David Brown <david.brown@linaro.org>, emese Revfy <re.emese@gmail.com>, Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>, spender@grsecurity.net, mmarek@suse.com, keescook@chromium.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, yamada.masahiro@socionext.com, linux-kbuild@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, axboe@kernel.dk, viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk, paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com, mingo@redhat.com, tglx@linutronix.de, bart.vanassche@sandisk.com, davem@davemloft.net Subject: Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [PATCH v2 1/3] Add the latent_entropy gcc plugin Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 14:19:14 +0200 [thread overview] Message-ID: <5756BBC2.3735.D63200E@pageexec.freemail.hu> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20160606231319.GC7057@thunk.org> On 6 Jun 2016 at 19:13, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:30:12PM +0200, PaX Team wrote: > > > > what matters for latent entropy is not the actual values fed into the entropy > > pool (they're effectively compile time constants save for runtime data dependent > > computations) but the precise sequence of them. interrupts stir this sequence > > and thus extract entropy. perhaps as a small example imagine that an uninterrupted > > kernel boot sequence feeds these values into the entropy pool: > > A B C > > > > now imagine that a single interrupt can occur around any one of these values: > > I A B C > > A I B C > > A B I C > > A B C I > > > > this way we can obtain 4 different final pool states that translate into up > > to 2 bits of latent entropy (depends on how probable each sequence is). note > > that this works regardless whether the underlying hardware has a high resolution > > timer whose values the interrupt handler would feed into the pool. > > Right, but if it's only about interrupts, (i believe that) latent entropy is found in more than just interrupt timing, there're also data dependent computations that can have entropy, either on a single system or across a population of them. > we're doing this already inside modern Linux kernels. On every single > interrupt we are mixing into a per-CPU "fast mix" pool the IP from the > interrupt registers. i agree that sampling the kernel register state can have entropy (the plugin already extracts the current stack pointer) but i'm much less sure about userland (at least i see no dependence on !user_mode(...)) since an attacker could feed no entropy into the pool but still get it credited. cheers, PaX Team
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From: "PaX Team" <pageexec@freemail.hu> To: Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> Cc: kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com, David Brown <david.brown@linaro.org>, emese Revfy <re.emese@gmail.com>, Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>, spender@grsecurity.net, mmarek@suse.com, keescook@chromium.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, yamada.masahiro@socionext.com, linux-kbuild@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, axboe@kernel.dk, viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk, paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com, mingo@redhat.com, tglx@linutronix.de, bart.vanassche@sandisk.com, davem@davemloft.net Subject: Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [PATCH v2 1/3] Add the latent_entropy gcc plugin Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 14:19:14 +0200 [thread overview] Message-ID: <5756BBC2.3735.D63200E@pageexec.freemail.hu> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20160606231319.GC7057@thunk.org> On 6 Jun 2016 at 19:13, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:30:12PM +0200, PaX Team wrote: > > > > what matters for latent entropy is not the actual values fed into the entropy > > pool (they're effectively compile time constants save for runtime data dependent > > computations) but the precise sequence of them. interrupts stir this sequence > > and thus extract entropy. perhaps as a small example imagine that an uninterrupted > > kernel boot sequence feeds these values into the entropy pool: > > A B C > > > > now imagine that a single interrupt can occur around any one of these values: > > I A B C > > A I B C > > A B I C > > A B C I > > > > this way we can obtain 4 different final pool states that translate into up > > to 2 bits of latent entropy (depends on how probable each sequence is). note > > that this works regardless whether the underlying hardware has a high resolution > > timer whose values the interrupt handler would feed into the pool. > > Right, but if it's only about interrupts, (i believe that) latent entropy is found in more than just interrupt timing, there're also data dependent computations that can have entropy, either on a single system or across a population of them. > we're doing this already inside modern Linux kernels. On every single > interrupt we are mixing into a per-CPU "fast mix" pool the IP from the > interrupt registers. i agree that sampling the kernel register state can have entropy (the plugin already extracts the current stack pointer) but i'm much less sure about userland (at least i see no dependence on !user_mode(...)) since an attacker could feed no entropy into the pool but still get it credited. cheers, PaX Team -- To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in the body to majordomo@kvack.org. For more info on Linux MM, see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ . Don't email: <a href=mailto:"dont@kvack.org"> email@kvack.org </a>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-06-07 12:20 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 62+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2016-05-30 23:30 [PATCH v2 0/3] Introduce the latent_entropy gcc plugin Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:30 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:30 ` Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:31 ` [PATCH v2 1/3] Add " Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:31 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:31 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-01 19:42 ` Andrew Morton 2016-06-01 19:42 ` [kernel-hardening] " Andrew Morton 2016-06-01 19:42 ` Andrew Morton 2016-06-03 17:42 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-03 17:42 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-06-03 17:42 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-06 13:38 ` [kernel-hardening] " David Brown 2016-06-06 13:38 ` David Brown 2016-06-06 15:50 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-06 15:50 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-06 15:50 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-06 19:30 ` PaX Team 2016-06-06 19:30 ` PaX Team 2016-06-06 23:13 ` Theodore Ts'o 2016-06-06 23:13 ` Theodore Ts'o 2016-06-07 12:19 ` PaX Team [this message] 2016-06-07 12:19 ` PaX Team 2016-06-07 13:58 ` Theodore Ts'o 2016-06-07 13:58 ` Theodore Ts'o 2016-06-09 17:22 ` PaX Team 2016-06-09 17:22 ` PaX Team 2016-06-09 19:55 ` Theodore Ts'o 2016-06-09 19:55 ` Theodore Ts'o 2016-06-09 20:08 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-09 20:08 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-09 20:08 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-09 21:51 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-09 21:51 ` [kernel-hardening] " Kees Cook 2016-06-09 21:51 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-09 21:51 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-13 21:49 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-13 21:49 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-06-13 21:49 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-13 21:49 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-14 18:27 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-14 18:27 ` [kernel-hardening] " Kees Cook 2016-06-14 18:27 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-14 18:27 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-14 22:31 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-14 22:31 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-06-14 22:31 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-14 22:31 ` Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:32 ` [PATCH v2 2/3] Mark functions with the latent_entropy attribute Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:32 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:32 ` Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:34 ` [PATCH v2 3/3] Add the extra_latent_entropy kernel parameter Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:34 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-05-30 23:34 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-09 21:18 ` [PATCH v2 0/3] Introduce the latent_entropy gcc plugin Kees Cook 2016-06-09 21:18 ` [kernel-hardening] " Kees Cook 2016-06-09 21:18 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-09 21:18 ` Kees Cook 2016-06-09 23:33 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-09 23:33 ` [kernel-hardening] " Emese Revfy 2016-06-09 23:33 ` Emese Revfy 2016-06-09 23:33 ` Emese Revfy
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