[mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Christof Thalhofer]

Hello,

I migrated a couple of Mls from Mailman2 to Mlmmj (1.3).

With MM2 we did Reply-To-Munging (replaced the original Reply-To header 
with 'Reply-To: list@listserver'.

Mlmmj does not allow this. I can add 'Reply-To: address@list' but I 
cannot delete 'Reply-To: from@home' with delheaders because then Mlmmj 
also removes  the 'From:' header ... why ???

So if I set 'Reply-To:  list@listserver' in customheaders there are 
often two 'Reply-To:' in the headers of an outgoing mail:

'Reply-To: from@home' (set by the author of the mail)
'Reply-To:  list@listserver' (set by Mlmmj)

which causes Gmail to bounce that mail.

Now we have the problem with a mailinglist that Gmail does not have a 
'reply-to-list'-button.

It has the options 'reply' and 'reply to all'.

'reply' answers to the address in 'From:' and the mail doesn't go to the 
list.

'reply to all' answers to the addresses in 'From:' and 'List-Post:' 
creating dupes at the person whose mail was answered.

Reply-To-munging seems to be the only way to give Gmail-users the 
possibility to answer direct to the list. But is is impossible to be 
done in Mlmmj.

What to do?

Alles Gute

Christof Thalhofer

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Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Baptiste Daroussin]

5 mars 2024 à 11:35 "Christof Thalhofer" <chrisml@deganius.de> a écrit:



> 
> Hello,
> 
> I migrated a couple of Mls from Mailman2 to Mlmmj (1.3).
> 
> With MM2 we did Reply-To-Munging (replaced the original Reply-To header with 'Reply-To: list@listserver'.
> 
> Mlmmj does not allow this. I can add 'Reply-To: address@list' but I cannot delete 'Reply-To: from@home' with delheaders because then Mlmmj also removes the 'From:' header ... why ???
> 
> So if I set 'Reply-To: list@listserver' in customheaders there are often two 'Reply-To:' in the headers of an outgoing mail:
> 
> 'Reply-To: from@home' (set by the author of the mail)
> 
> 'Reply-To: list@listserver' (set by Mlmmj)
> 
> which causes Gmail to bounce that mail.
> 
> Now we have the problem with a mailinglist that Gmail does not have a 'reply-to-list'-button.
> 
> It has the options 'reply' and 'reply to all'.
> 
> 'reply' answers to the address in 'From:' and the mail doesn't go to the list.
> 
> 'reply to all' answers to the addresses in 'From:' and 'List-Post:' creating dupes at the person whose mail was answered.
> 
> Reply-To-munging seems to be the only way to give Gmail-users the possibility to answer direct to the list. But is is impossible to be done in Mlmmj.
> 
> What to do?
> 
> Alles Gute
> 
> Christof Thalhofer
> 
> -- Dies ist keine Signatur


Hello,

Reply to munge is an interesting feature to add, can you create a feature request on codeberg so I don't forget when I will start working on 1.5? 

https://codeberg.org/mlmmj/mlmmj

Best regards,
Bapt

Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Christof Thalhofer]

Am 05.03.24 um 12:14 schrieb Baptiste Daroussin:


> Reply to munge is an interesting feature to add, can you create a feature request on codeberg so I don't forget when I will start working on 1.5?
> 
> https://codeberg.org/mlmmj/mlmmj

Yes I can do that, thanks for the hint.

Just one question: What is the reason that 'delheaders' deletes not only 
the headers in the file but also '"From " and "Return-Path:" are deleted 
no matter what.'?

http://mlmmj.org/docs/tunables/

In my opinion that's a severe bug.

Alles Gute

Christof Thalhofer

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Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Konstantin Ryabitsev]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2024 at 01:00:45PM +0100, Christof Thalhofer wrote:
> Am 05.03.24 um 12:14 schrieb Baptiste Daroussin:
> 
> 
> > Reply to munge is an interesting feature to add, can you create a feature request on codeberg so I don't forget when I will start working on 1.5?
> > 
> > https://codeberg.org/mlmmj/mlmmj
> 
> Yes I can do that, thanks for the hint.
> 
> Just one question: What is the reason that 'delheaders' deletes not only the
> headers in the file but also '"From " and "Return-Path:" are deleted no
> matter what.'?

This is done for bounce processing purposes. The "envelope-from" is the
address where the receiving system will bounce the message if it is unable to
deliver it. If mlmmj kept the original envelope-from, then:

1. this would violate SPF records
2. this would send the bounces to the original sender instead of to the
   mailing list host

-K

Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Christof Thalhofer]

Hello Baptiste,

Am 05.03.24 um 12:14 schrieb Baptiste Daroussin:

> Reply to munge is an interesting feature to add, can you create a
> feature request on codeberg so I don't forget when I will start
> working on 1.5?
> 
> https://codeberg.org/mlmmj/mlmmj

"Reply-To" munging destroys DKIM signatures and therefor should not be a 
separate tunable. But there are situations where I would like to use it.

Because of that I come to the conclusion: What should be done in a 
future version of Mlmmj is to fix the 'delheaders' tunable.

IMO 'delheaders' in the current state is impossible to use right because 
if set it not only deletes the header I want but also does that:

'"From " and "Return-Path:" are deleted no matter what.'

as it is stated the documentation.

Additionally it rewrites the message body and inserts something like 
that (in the body!???), this is the head of the body of a testmail I 
sent to our mailinglist:

 > MIME-Version: 1.0
 > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
 > Content-Language: en-US
 > From: Christof Thalhofer <chrisml@deganius.de>
 > To: Gambas Basic Mailing List <user@lists.gambas-basic.org>
 > Subject: [Gambas-user] Next test for Gmail users
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed
 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 >
 > Please hit reply.
 >
 > Alles Gute
 >
 > Christof Thalhofer

This creates a lot of rubbish in the mailinglist, so 'delheaders' is not 
usable!

If I compare Mlmmj to Sympa then Sympa offers the possibility to delete 
any header I want in the incoming mail without rewriting any other part 
of the mail.

This would be the cool way to delete headers!

With that together with the 'customheaders' tunable everybody can do 
'Reply-To:' munging if necessary and a lot of other things.

For instance I wanted to use Mlmmj for a newsletter. Here I would 
replace 'From:' as well as DKIM signatures of the incoming mail.

This is impossible with the current 'delheaders' tunable of Mlmmj.

Alles Gute

Christof Thalhofer

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Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Konstantin Ryabitsev]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 01:52:34PM +0100, Christof Thalhofer wrote:
> "Reply-To" munging destroys DKIM signatures and therefor should not be a
> separate tunable. But there are situations where I would like to use it.
> 
> Because of that I come to the conclusion: What should be done in a future
> version of Mlmmj is to fix the 'delheaders' tunable.
> 
> IMO 'delheaders' in the current state is impossible to use right

We're using it across hundreds of mailing lists, delivering millions of
messages daily, so this statement is incorrect.

> because if
> set it not only deletes the header I want but also does that:
> 
> '"From " and "Return-Path:" are deleted no matter what.'

I have previously explained why this is the correct course of action:
https://lore.kernel.org/mlmmj/20240305-tricky-crouching-shellfish-eb7c96@meerkat/

You may be confusing "From " (envelope-from) and "From:" (the cosmetic
header). They are not the same thing and the distinction is crucial to
understanding why mlmmj does the right thing.

> as it is stated the documentation.
> 
> Additionally it rewrites the message body and inserts something like that
> (in the body!???), this is the head of the body of a testmail I sent to our
> mailinglist:

I think you may have an extra blank line in your customheaders tunable.

-K

Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Christof Thalhofer]

Am 11.03.24 um 14:30 schrieb Konstantin Ryabitsev:

> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 01:52:34PM +0100, Christof Thalhofer wrote:

>> IMO 'delheaders' in the current state is impossible to use right
> 
> We're using it across hundreds of mailing lists, delivering millions of
> messages daily, so this statement is incorrect.

Yes, I think you are right. See above:

>> because if
>> set it not only deletes the header I want but also does that:
>>
>> '"From " and "Return-Path:" are deleted no matter what.'
> 
> I have previously explained why this is the correct course of action:
> https://lore.kernel.org/mlmmj/20240305-tricky-crouching-shellfish-eb7c96@meerkat/
> 
> You may be confusing "From " (envelope-from) and "From:" (the cosmetic
> header). They are not the same thing and the distinction is crucial to
> understanding why mlmmj does the right thing.

Ok, thank you!

>> Additionally it rewrites the message body and inserts something like that
>> (in the body!???), this is the head of the body of a testmail I sent to our
>> mailinglist:
> 
> I think you may have an extra blank line in your customheaders tunable.

Ok, I can't reproduce it now, but that was obviously the case. I tested 
again. Now 'delheaders' and 'customheaders' work as expected.

Sorry for the wind. I'm quite new to mlmmj.

Alles Gute

Christof Thalhofer

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Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Konstantin Ryabitsev]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2024 at 11:35:33AM +0100, Christof Thalhofer wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I migrated a couple of Mls from Mailman2 to Mlmmj (1.3).
> 
> With MM2 we did Reply-To-Munging (replaced the original Reply-To header with
> 'Reply-To: list@listserver'.
> 
> Mlmmj does not allow this. I can add 'Reply-To: address@list' but I cannot
> delete 'Reply-To: from@home' with delheaders because then Mlmmj also removes
> the 'From:' header ... why ???
> 
> So if I set 'Reply-To:  list@listserver' in customheaders there are often
> two 'Reply-To:' in the headers of an outgoing mail:
> 
> 'Reply-To: from@home' (set by the author of the mail)
> 'Reply-To:  list@listserver' (set by Mlmmj)
> 
> which causes Gmail to bounce that mail.
> 
> Now we have the problem with a mailinglist that Gmail does not have a
> 'reply-to-list'-button.
> 
> It has the options 'reply' and 'reply to all'.
> 
> 'reply' answers to the address in 'From:' and the mail doesn't go to the
> list.
> 
> 'reply to all' answers to the addresses in 'From:' and 'List-Post:' creating
> dupes at the person whose mail was answered.
> 
> Reply-To-munging seems to be the only way to give Gmail-users the
> possibility to answer direct to the list. But is is impossible to be done in
> Mlmmj.
> 
> What to do?

If you rewrite headers such as Reply-To, this will almost certainly invalidate
the DKIM signature of the original message if you also keep the original
"From:" header. If you want to modify any signed headers, you *must* rewrite
the From: address.

There are only two possible solutions when it comes to mailing lists these
days:

1. Don't touch any headers, only add List-* headers (e.g. List-ID)
2. If you do change any headers, you *must* also rewrite the original From:
   header (e.g. by moving it to X-Original-From:), because otherwise you will
   violate DKIM/DMARC policies of the sender's domain

-K

Re: [mlmmj] What do you do with Gmail accounts?

[Christof Thalhofer]

Hello Konstantin,

Am 05.03.24 um 17:04 schrieb Konstantin Ryabitsev:

>> Reply-To-munging seems to be the only way to give Gmail-users the
>> possibility to answer direct to the list. But is is impossible to be done in
>> Mlmmj.
>>
>> What to do?
> 
> If you rewrite headers such as Reply-To, this will almost certainly invalidate
> the DKIM signature of the original message if you also keep the original
> "From:" header. If you want to modify any signed headers, you *must* rewrite
> the From: address.
> 
> There are only two possible solutions when it comes to mailing lists these
> days:
> 
> 1. Don't touch any headers, only add List-* headers (e.g. List-ID)
> 2. If you do change any headers, you *must* also rewrite the original From:
>     header (e.g. by moving it to X-Original-From:), because otherwise you will
>     violate DKIM/DMARC policies of the sender's domain

Ok. I will choose (1). The poor guys at Gmail have to live with it that 
they cannot hit 'Reply' to answer to the list. Instead they have to 
choose 'Reply to all' with which Gmail would send:

To: authors_email@domain
CC: list@listserver

Then they have to delete 'authors_email@domain' from 'To:' and move 
'list@listserver' to 'To:'.

Their bad luck to be with this provider.

---

When I add this header:

'Mail-Reply-To:  list@listserver'

Thunderbird and Claws Mail and a lot of other MUAs reply to 
'list@listserver' when the user hits <Ctrl-R>.

And DKIM is not broken.

Thank you all!

Alles Gute

Christof Thalhofer

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