Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Bean Huo 霍斌斌 (beanhuo)]

>Some MLC chips require a randomization step: take a look at this
>datasheet [1], page 21:
>"Users are required to employ randomizer function in the NAND
>controller to meet target endurance of the device."

>[1]http://www.100y.com.tw/pdf_file/37-SAMSUNG-K9GBG08U0A-SCB0.pdf


>-- 
>Boris Brezillon, Free Electrons
>Embedded Linux and Kernel engineering
>http://free-electrons.com

I think,it's hard to implement randomizer function,
So far,I also have not heard any about it.
but , IIUC , It is associated with FS/ Nand controller.

Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Andrea Scian]

Il 10/04/2015 10:27, Qi Wang 王起 (qiwang) ha scritto:
> Hi Andrea,
> 
> On Thu, 2015-04-09 at 22:19 +0200, Andrea Scian wrote:
>> Il 07/04/2015 19:45, Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn) ha scritto:
>>> I read back through the posts and I think we are talking about 2
>> separate things, random read time and randomization.
>>>
>>> Rand Read (tR) assumes you are doing a single read of a page (worst
>> case), but most data is stored in blocks sequentially, so data output can
>> be improve significantly by read by taking advantage of commands like
>> READ PAGE CACHE SEQUENTIAL which copies the next sequential page from the
>> NAND Flash array to the data register.
>>>
>>> Randomization is a relatively new feature, I'm no expert, but it's in
>> general we know there are some distributions that are worse than others,
>> and by randomizing the data we can avoid worst case and improve endurance.
> 
> Yes, Randomization can avoid worst case and improve endurance
> 
>>
>> Definitely here I'm speaking about the latter.
>> By looking inside the datasheet (hynix, micron and so on) I have I've
>> found no MLC part that explicitly required such a implementation, apart
>> the one pointed out by Boris.
> 
> For Micron MLC part, we already implement this function inside of our MLC,
> so external randomization isn't needed at all.

Thank you very much for sharing this information with the community.

It would be nice having this kind of stuff already present in datasheets
and/or a dedicated whitepaper :-)
Things like this may have a great influence in choosing the part to be
used in a given design.

Kind Regards,

-- 

Andrea SCIAN

DAVE Embedded Systems

[MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Qi Wang 王起 (qiwang)]

Hi Andrea,

On Thu, 2015-04-09 at 22:19 +0200, Andrea Scian wrote:
>Il 07/04/2015 19:45, Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn) ha scritto:
>> I read back through the posts and I think we are talking about 2
>separate things, random read time and randomization.
>>
>> Rand Read (tR) assumes you are doing a single read of a page (worst
>case), but most data is stored in blocks sequentially, so data output can
>be improve significantly by read by taking advantage of commands like
>READ PAGE CACHE SEQUENTIAL which copies the next sequential page from the
>NAND Flash array to the data register.
>>
>> Randomization is a relatively new feature, I'm no expert, but it's in
>general we know there are some distributions that are worse than others,
>and by randomizing the data we can avoid worst case and improve endurance.

Yes, Randomization can avoid worst case and improve endurance

>
>Definitely here I'm speaking about the latter.
>By looking inside the datasheet (hynix, micron and so on) I have I've
>found no MLC part that explicitly required such a implementation, apart
>the one pointed out by Boris.

For Micron MLC part, we already implement this function inside of our MLC,
so external randomization isn't needed at all.

Thanks

--
Qi Wang

Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Andrea Scian]

Il 07/04/2015 19:45, Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn) ha scritto:
> I read back through the posts and I think we are talking about 2 separate things, random read time and randomization.
>
> Rand Read (tR) assumes you are doing a single read of a page (worst case), but most data is stored in blocks sequentially, so data output can be improve significantly by read by taking advantage of commands like READ PAGE CACHE SEQUENTIAL which copies the next sequential page from the NAND Flash array to the data register.
>
> Randomization is a relatively new feature, I'm no expert, but it's in general we know there are some distributions that are worse than others, and by randomizing the data we can avoid worst case and improve endurance.

Definitely here I'm speaking about the latter.
By looking inside the datasheet (hynix, micron and so on) I have I've 
found no MLC part that explicitly required such a implementation, apart 
the one pointed out by Boris.

Kind Regards,

-- 

Andrea SCIAN

DAVE Embedded Systems


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boris Brezillon [mailto:boris.brezillon@free-electrons.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 8:09 AM
> To: Andrea Scian
> Cc: Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn); mtd_mailinglist
> Subject: Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity
>
> On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 15:21:25 +0200
> Andrea Scian <rnd4@dave-tech.it> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for linking this again.
>> I think that Jeff can help us in understanding this further.
>> The documents is pretty old (2009) and is about TLC only.
>> Does it mean that MLC are less (or not at all) affected by this issue?
>
> Some MLC chips require a randomization step: take a look at this datasheet [1], page 21:
> "Users are required to employ randomizer function in the NAND controller to meet target endurance of the device."
>
> [1]http://www.100y.com.tw/pdf_file/37-SAMSUNG-K9GBG08U0A-SCB0.pdf
>
>
> --
> Boris Brezillon, Free Electrons
> Embedded Linux and Kernel engineering
> http://free-electrons.com
>


-- 

Andrea SCIAN

DAVE Embedded Systems

RE: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn)]

I read back through the posts and I think we are talking about 2 separate things, random read time and randomization. 

Rand Read (tR) assumes you are doing a single read of a page (worst case), but most data is stored in blocks sequentially, so data output can be improve significantly by read by taking advantage of commands like READ PAGE CACHE SEQUENTIAL which copies the next sequential page from the NAND Flash array to the data register.

Randomization is a relatively new feature, I'm no expert, but it's in general we know there are some distributions that are worse than others, and by randomizing the data we can avoid worst case and improve endurance.


Jeff Lauruhn
NAND Application Engineer
Embedded Business Unit
Micron Technology, Inc


-----Original Message-----
From: Boris Brezillon [mailto:boris.brezillon@free-electrons.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 8:09 AM
To: Andrea Scian
Cc: Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn); mtd_mailinglist
Subject: Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 15:21:25 +0200
Andrea Scian <rnd4@dave-tech.it> wrote:

> Thanks for linking this again.
> I think that Jeff can help us in understanding this further.
> The documents is pretty old (2009) and is about TLC only.
> Does it mean that MLC are less (or not at all) affected by this issue?

Some MLC chips require a randomization step: take a look at this datasheet [1], page 21:
"Users are required to employ randomizer function in the NAND controller to meet target endurance of the device."

[1]http://www.100y.com.tw/pdf_file/37-SAMSUNG-K9GBG08U0A-SCB0.pdf


--
Boris Brezillon, Free Electrons
Embedded Linux and Kernel engineering
http://free-electrons.com

Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Boris Brezillon]

On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 15:21:25 +0200
Andrea Scian <rnd4@dave-tech.it> wrote:

> Thanks for linking this again.
> I think that Jeff can help us in understanding this further.
> The documents is pretty old (2009) and is about TLC only.
> Does it mean that MLC are less (or not at all) affected by this issue?

Some MLC chips require a randomization step: take a look at this
datasheet [1], page 21:
"Users are required to employ randomizer function in the NAND
controller to meet target endurance of the device."

[1]http://www.100y.com.tw/pdf_file/37-SAMSUNG-K9GBG08U0A-SCB0.pdf


-- 
Boris Brezillon, Free Electrons
Embedded Linux and Kernel engineering
http://free-electrons.com

Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Andrea Scian]

Il 07/04/2015 13:19, Boris Brezillon ha scritto:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:31:10 +0200
> Andrea Scian <rnd4@dave-tech.it> wrote:
> 
>> Il 03/04/2015 19:20, Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn) ha scritto:
>>> I'm always glad to help out. I'm not sure I quite understand the meaning of "data pattern sensivity", but when I read it seem related to ECC code word size and Cyclicdesign.com is a good resource and in particular http://cyclicdesign.com/whitepapers/Cyclic_Design_NAND_ECC.pdf.  
>>
>> Thanks for pointing out the whitepaper
> 
> I haven't read this paper yet, but according to the title I doubt it is
> related to the "repeated/systematic data pattern" issue.
> 
>>
>>> If I'm off track let me know and I will keep looking.
>>
>> I don't really know, but, IIUC, is something related to NAND technology
>> and its impact is dependent from the specific MLC implementation.
>> For sure Boris can help us in have a better understanding of this issue :-)
> 
> Actually this problem was mentioned in the Micron document I pointed
> out in a previous thread ([1] page 14).

Thanks for linking this again.
I think that Jeff can help us in understanding this further.
The documents is pretty old (2009) and is about TLC only.
Does it mean that MLC are less (or not at all) affected by this issue?

> I also found a paper describing the benefit of data scrambling on MLC
> chips [2].

This one is really interesting, thanks.
IIUC, what they say is that data scrambling is always useful in NAND
flash to increase endurance (and also decrease RBER).
At the beginning I tough that it was a requirement of some specific NAND
technology

BR,

-- 

Andrea SCIAN

DAVE Embedded Systems

Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Boris Brezillon]

Hi,

On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:31:10 +0200
Andrea Scian <rnd4@dave-tech.it> wrote:

> Il 03/04/2015 19:20, Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn) ha scritto:
> > I'm always glad to help out. I'm not sure I quite understand the meaning of "data pattern sensivity", but when I read it seem related to ECC code word size and Cyclicdesign.com is a good resource and in particular http://cyclicdesign.com/whitepapers/Cyclic_Design_NAND_ECC.pdf.  
> 
> Thanks for pointing out the whitepaper

I haven't read this paper yet, but according to the title I doubt it is
related to the "repeated/systematic data pattern" issue.

> 
> > If I'm off track let me know and I will keep looking.
> 
> I don't really know, but, IIUC, is something related to NAND technology
> and its impact is dependent from the specific MLC implementation.
> For sure Boris can help us in have a better understanding of this issue :-)

Actually this problem was mentioned in the Micron document I pointed
out in a previous thread ([1] page 14).
I also found a paper describing the benefit of data scrambling on MLC
chips [2].

Best Regards,

Boris

[1]http://www.bswd.com/FMS09/FMS09-T2A-Grunzke.pdf
[2]http://soc.yonsei.ac.kr/Abstract/International_journal/pdf/106_Data%20Randomization%20Scheme%20for%20Endurance%20Enhancement%20and%20Interference%20Mitigation%20of%20Multilevel%20Flash%20Memory%20Devices.pdf

-- 
Boris Brezillon, Free Electrons
Embedded Linux and Kernel engineering
http://free-electrons.com

Re: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Andrea Scian]

Il 03/04/2015 19:20, Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn) ha scritto:
> I'm always glad to help out. I'm not sure I quite understand the meaning of "data pattern sensivity", but when I read it seem related to ECC code word size and Cyclicdesign.com is a good resource and in particular http://cyclicdesign.com/whitepapers/Cyclic_Design_NAND_ECC.pdf.  

Thanks for pointing out the whitepaper

> If I'm off track let me know and I will keep looking.

I don't really know, but, IIUC, is something related to NAND technology
and its impact is dependent from the specific MLC implementation.
For sure Boris can help us in have a better understanding of this issue :-)

BR,

-- 

Andrea SCIAN

DAVE Embedded Systems


>
>
> Jeff Lauruhn
> NAND Application Engineer
> Embedded Business Unit
> Micron Technology, Inc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Scian [mailto:rnd4@dave-tech.it] 
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 2:46 AM
> To: mtd_mailinglist
> Cc: Boris Brezillon; Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn)
> Subject: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I was looking inside Boris presentation at latest ELC (nice work!) and trying to understand a bit deeper the systematic data pattern problem.
> I also did some research on this ML, looking for some details about this topic, finding not so much more the original RFC thread:
>
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.drivers.devicetree/72230/
>
> I search for this kind of information inside various MLC NAND datasheets that I've available on my desk but I cannot find any reference on this, maybe is called in a different way or maybe I'm looking to the wrong devices (e.g. I'm currently working with some Micron NANDs MT29F32G08CBADA, MT29F32G08CBACA..)
>
> I CCed Boris and Jeff directly because maybe they can help me in better understanding the impact of this problem on some real device.
>
> TIA & BR,
>

RE: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn)]

I'm always glad to help out. I'm not sure I quite understand the meaning of "data pattern sensivity", but when I read it seem related to ECC code word size and Cyclicdesign.com is a good resource and in particular http://cyclicdesign.com/whitepapers/Cyclic_Design_NAND_ECC.pdf.  If I'm off track let me know and I will keep looking.



Jeff Lauruhn
NAND Application Engineer
Embedded Business Unit
Micron Technology, Inc

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Scian [mailto:rnd4@dave-tech.it] 
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 2:46 AM
To: mtd_mailinglist
Cc: Boris Brezillon; Jeff Lauruhn (jlauruhn)
Subject: [MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity


Dear All,

I was looking inside Boris presentation at latest ELC (nice work!) and trying to understand a bit deeper the systematic data pattern problem.
I also did some research on this ML, looking for some details about this topic, finding not so much more the original RFC thread:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.drivers.devicetree/72230/

I search for this kind of information inside various MLC NAND datasheets that I've available on my desk but I cannot find any reference on this, maybe is called in a different way or maybe I'm looking to the wrong devices (e.g. I'm currently working with some Micron NANDs MT29F32G08CBADA, MT29F32G08CBACA..)

I CCed Boris and Jeff directly because maybe they can help me in better understanding the impact of this problem on some real device.

TIA & BR,

-- 

Andrea SCIAN

DAVE Embedded Systems

[MLC NAND]: data pattern sensivity

[Andrea Scian]

Dear All,

I was looking inside Boris presentation at latest ELC (nice work!) and
trying to understand a bit deeper the systematic data pattern problem.
I also did some research on this ML, looking for some details about this
topic, finding not so much more the original RFC thread:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.drivers.devicetree/72230/

I search for this kind of information inside various MLC NAND datasheets
that I've available on my desk but I cannot find any reference on this,
maybe is called in a different way or maybe I'm looking to the wrong
devices (e.g. I'm currently working with some Micron NANDs
MT29F32G08CBADA, MT29F32G08CBACA..)

I CCed Boris and Jeff directly because maybe they can help me in better
understanding the impact of this problem on some real device.

TIA & BR,

-- 

Andrea SCIAN

DAVE Embedded Systems