* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-03 19:58 [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend) Jakub Narebski
@ 2010-07-04 0:21 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2010-07-04 8:13 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-10 11:01 ` Felipe Contreras
2010-07-04 9:07 ` David Bainbridge
` (4 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason @ 2010-07-04 0:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
This survey is good stuff. Some minor comments below.
> I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
> there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
>
> here is how it was for previous surveys:
> * 2009 was open from 15 July to 15 September 2009 (for 2 months)
> * 2008 was open from 31 August to 14 October 2008 (for 1.5 months)
> * 2007 was open from 20 August to 10 September 2007 (for 20 days)
> (officially: results are up until 28 September 2007)
> * 2006 was open from 23 July to 6-12 September 2006
> (for a bit less than 2 months)
>
> With more that 3000 responses in 2008 and 2009 survey, analysing
> free-form data was hard. That is why in this proposal there is only
> single one free-form response (about missing features).
>
> What questions (and with what proposed answers) shound there be in
> this year survey? Below there is the content of the proposed survey:
>
>
> = Git User's Survey 2010 (proposal) =
>
> == About you ==
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This section gives us a bit of demographical information about survey
> responders. Is it useful? Should we leave it in survey, or remove it?
>
> Should we for example include 'gender' as one of questions? Perl Survey
> 2010 did.
>
>
> === 01. What country do you live in? ===
> (Country of residence)
> (free-form single line)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Perhaps a better solution would be a menu (drop-down list) of countries,
> using list of current countries. It would be more work to create it, but
> might reduce ambiguities and unparsable responses.
>
> What I'd like to have is to pre-fill / select default answer based on GeoIP.
> Even better would be to be able to show current position on Google Map, like
> contributors and users map on Ohloh... but that I think is simply not
> possible with Survs.com, the site to be used for this survey (and I guess
> neither with any other survey site). One can dream.
>
> Pel Survey 2010 also included (from what I remember, and from provided data
> and analysis of survey) also country of origin / country of birth, to
> measure mobility. I wonder if it would make sense to have the same for Git
> User's Survey 2010... Note that it would be harder to come up with the list
> of countries for such question, because the country might no longer exists.
> Therefore the list (if present) should be based on all countries that exist
> or existed since 100 years ago (or so).
>
>
> === 02. How old are you (in years)? ===
> (free-form single line)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Instead of unconstrained free-form response it might be better to have
> single choice (or menu) of age ranges. What do you think? Of course with
> ranges there is question what ranges to use (how to quantize age); goo
> solution would be to chose ranges corresponding somewhat to the levels of
> education.
>
>
> == Getting started with Git ==
>
> === 03. Have you found Git easy to learn? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Very easy
> * Easy
> * Reasonably easy
> * Hard
> * Very hard
>
> === 04. Have you found Git easy to use? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Very easy
> * Easy
> * Reasonably easy
> * Hard
> * Very hard
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Those two questions, considered alone, doesn't tell us much. If one use
> git, then usually one does not think it is too hard to use (unless forced to
> use git by external circumstances, like project he/she works on using git).
> On the other hand those two questions together give us some mesaure of git
> learning curve, telling us if people consider git easy to use but hard to
> learn, or vice versa ;-)
>
> I think it might be also good to have to calculate correlations, e.g. if
> people who find git hard to use make use of its advanced features.
>
> The question is: should they stay, or should they go?
They should probably stay. But they don't really ask the right
question IMO. Which is not whether users think it's difficult to
learn, but whether it's unreasonably difficult for the problem they're
solving.
I.e. jet aircraft are hard to operate, but they also do neat
stuff. How hard is Git to learn for the problem it's solving?
> === 05. Which Git version(s) are you using? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + pre 1.3
> + 1.3.x
> + 1.4.x
> + 1.5.x
> + 1.6.x
> + 1.7.x
>
> + minor (maintenance) release 1.x.y.z
> + 'master' branch of official git repository
> + 'next' branch of official git repository
> + 'pu' branch of official git repository
> + version from msysGit / Git for Windows fork repository
> + git-bigfiles fork
> + JGit implementation (e.g. via Eclipse plugin, EGit)
>
> + other, please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> A few of possible answers are new in this version of survey, namely 'pu',
> msysGit, git-bigfiles, JGit, and of course 1.7.x.
>
> This question is here to stay.
>
>
> === 06. Rate your own proficiency with Git: ===
> (single choice)
>
> * 1. novice
> * 2. casual, needs advice
> * 3. everyday use
> * 4. can offer advice
> * 5. know it very well
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This question tell us penetration of announcements of Git User's Survey 2010;
> did we get to all, or only to git gurus? It is also useful for correlating
> with other responses, for example to know which features are used by
> novices, and which by gurus.
>
>
> == How you use Git ==
>
> === 07. I use Git for (check all that apply): ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> Note that above choices are neither orthogonal nor exclusive. One
> might want to check multiple answers even for a single repository.
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Answers to this question probe different direction.
> This list is interspersed with comments about specific
> (sub)sections.
>
> + work projects
> + unpaid projects
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those two are about using git at work vs using git on your own free time.
> There are of course shades of gray, like using git for work project
> unofficially (e.g.using git-svn as "fat" client for company's Subversion
> repository), or employer allowing to work on non-work OSS project during
> working hours. But I'm not sure if they are worth adding.
>
> + proprietary projects
> + OSS development (also public domain, and published & unlicensed)
> + private (unpublished)
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those three are about licensing: proprietary / free (open) / unlicensed.
> By 'OSS development' I mean here also free licenses for documentation and
> documents, like GFDL or Creative Commons licenses.
>
> + code (programming)
> + personal data
> + documents (data)
> + static website
> + web app
> + large (> 1MB) binary files
> + often changing binary files
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> This is about what kind of data do you store in git. I am a bit unsure
> whether it is worth separating 'web app'; it is 'code'.
>
> New in this edition of survey is 'large binary data' and 'often changing
> binary files'... but should 'large' cutoff be 1MB, or 10MB, or 50MB, or
> 100MB?
>
> I'm not sure about having 'personal data'...
>
> + sharing data or sync
> + managing configuration files
> + backup
> + backend for wiki, blog, or other web app
> + frontend to other SCM (e.g. git-svn)
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> This is about (ab)using git for other things than straighforward source
> control management. List of possible answers specified here should cover
> most commonly encountered usages: shdoul we add anything else here?
>
> + other (please specify)
>
>
> === 08. How do/did you obtain Git (install and/or upgrade)? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> Note that this question is multiple choices question because one can
> install Git in different ways on different machines or on different
> operating systems.
>
> + binary package
> + source package or script
> + source tarball
> + pull from (main) repository
> + preinstalled / sysadmin job
>
> + other - please specify
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Explanation: "binary package" covers pre-compiled binary (e.g. from
> rpm or deb binary packages); "source package" covers things like
> deb-src and SRPMS / *.src.rpm; "source script" is meant to cover
> installation in source-based distributions, like 'emerge' in Gentoo.
>
> Automatic update (apt, yum, etc.) in most cases means binary package
> install; unless one uses source-based distribution like Gentoo, CRUX,
> or SourceMage, where automatic update means using source package (or
> source script).
>
> The option named "preinstalled / sysadmin job" means that either you
> didn't need to install git because it was preinstalled (and you didn't
> upgrade); or that you have to ask system administrator to have git
> installed or upgraded.
>
> Note that this question is multiple choices question because one can
> install Git in different ways on different machines or on different
> operating systems.
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> What I didn't take into account in above explanation is operating
> systems with packaging systems different that the one used by various
> Linux distributions.
>
> In short: if to have git installed you compile it, you use source
> package or source tarball. If the installation onvolves anything more
> than 'make install' (or manual copying), then it is most probably
> source package or script.
>
> This for example means that "msysGit" installer is source package, and
> "Git for Windows" is binary package, if I understand it correctly.
>
>
> === 09. On which operating system(s) do you use Git? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + Linux (includes MeeGo and Moblin)
> + MacOS X (Darwin)
> + MS Windows/msysGit (MINGW)
> + MS Windows/Cygwin
> + FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc.
> + other Unix
>
> + iPhone OS
> + Android
> + WebOS
>
> + Other, please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> The iPhone OS, Androind and WebOS answers are new this year.
> OpenSolaris died, so I removed it. I wonder if it is worth it to
> differentiate between MS Windows/msysGit and MS Windows/Cygwin, or if
> we should just have one, single 'MS Windows' choice.
It's definitely worth differentiating those two.
> === 10. What do you use to edit contents under version control with Git? ===
> What kind of editor, IDE or RAD you use working with Git?
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + simple text editor
> + programmers editor
> + IDE or RAD
> + WYSIWYG tool
>
> + other kind
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> * "simple text editor" option includes editors such as pico, nano,
> joe, Notepad,
>
> * "programmets editor" option includes editors such as Emacs/XEmacs,
> Vim, TextMate, SciTE (syntax highlighting, autoindentation,
> integration with other programmers tools, etc.)
>
> * "IDE (Integrated Development Environment) and RAD (Rapid Application
> Development)" option includes tools such as Eclipse, NetBeans IDE,
> IntelliJ IDE, MS Visual Studio, KDevelop, Anjuta, Xcode,
> Code::Blocks but also tools such as Quanta+, BlueFish or Screem (for
> editing HTML, CSS, PHP etc.), and Kile or LEd for LaTeX.
>
> * "WYSIWYG tools" option includes word processors such as MS Office or
> OpenOffice.org, but also tools such as Adobe Acrobat (for PDF) or
> GIMP (for images), or WYSIWYG DTP tools such as QuarkXPress,
> PageMaker or Scribus, or WYSIWYG HTML editors such as FrontPage,
> Dreamweaver or KompoZer.
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Is this question useful, or should it be removed from survey?
>
>
> === 11. What Git interfaces and frontends do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + Cogito (DEPRECATED)
> + Easy Git
> + Pyrite
> + I don't know, I only use (graphical) tools
>
> + pg aka Patchy Git (DEPRECATED)
> + StGIT
> + Guilt
> + TopGit
>
> + other (please specify)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This version is going back to split from 2008 survey, rather than
> having everything put together like in 2009 one. There are, of
> course, problems with both choices.
>
> The problem with split part is that people can have troubls with
> distinguising between interfaces, implementations, frontends and tools
> (although "I don't know ..." answer should, I think, help here). The
> problem with having it everything together is that the list of
> possible answers gets long and a bit unwieldy.
>
> BTW are there any implementations and frontends that should be added
> to the list above?
>
>
> === 12. What kind of Git tools do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> If a tool is both history viewer, and commit tool, please choose the
> option that corresponds to how do you use this tool.
>
> + editor/IDE VC integration (e.g. EGit, TextMate bundle, magit)
> + filemanager / shell extension (e.g. git-cheetah, TortoiseGit)
> + graphical history viewer/browser (e.g. gitk)
> + graphical commit tool (e.g. git-gui)
> + graphical diff and/or merge tool (e.g. Kompare, Meld)
> + graphical blame or pickaxe tool
> + git-instaweb, or self-hosted web interface
> + tool to manage git repositories (e.g. Gitosis, Gitolite)
>
> + my own scripts (for daily use)
> + my own scripts (for special tasks)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> As the number of tools increases (see InterfacesFrontendsAndTools page
> on git wiki), having them listed all there gets a bit unwieldy. On
> the other hand it was a good way to find new tools that were not yet
> included on IFaT page. What do you think: should it be about tools,
> or only about kind of tools used with git?
>
> What do you think about this list? IS there something that should not
> be here? Or perhaps there is something that should be added to this
> list?
>
>
> === 13. Which git hosting site(s) do you use for your project(s)? ===
> Please check only hosting sites where you publish/push to (with git)
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + [http://repo.or.cz repo.or.cz]
> + [http://github.com GitHub]
> + [http://gitorious.org Gitorious]
> + [http://www.indefero.net InDefero]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are generic git hosting sites, each of them showcasing their own
> tool, all except GitHub open source (it is Girocco for repo.or.cz; for
> the rest the tool is named the same as the git hosting site).
>
> + [http://savannah.gnu.org Savannah]
> + [http://sourceforge.net SourceForge]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Generic software hosting sites, with git support. Did I miss
> something, should I include yet another site?
Maybe this should include "I host my own, e.g. with Gitweb".
> + [http://www.assembla.com Assembla]
> + [http://codebasehq.com Codebase]
> + [http://unfuddle.com Unfuddle]
> - [http://codesion.com Codesion]
> - [http://gitfarm.appspot.com GitFarm]
> - [http://www.projectlocker.com ProjectLocker]
> - [http://thechaw.com The Chaw]
> - [http://unfuddle.com Unfuddle]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are commercial and/or less known git hosting sites. I am not
> sure which ones of those marked with '-' to include, and whether to
> include other sites from GitHosting page on git wiki. What do you
> think?
>
> + [http://git.kernel.org kernel.org]
> + [http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/ freedesktop.org]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are 'git hosting site for related projects', but are special in
> some sense. Should I leave them there, or remove from this list?
>
> + [http://alioth.debian.org Alioth] (Debian)
> + [http://hosted.fedoraproject.org Fedora Hosted]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are distribution-specific. Are there any sites that I missed?
> Launchpad from Ubuntu does not count, as it is Bazaar hosting site,
> not Git hosting site.
>
> + git hosting site for related projects
> + generic site without git support
> + self hosted
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Are ther other kinds / typse of sites one can host project using git
> on? What are they?
>
> + Other (please specify)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> I think this question is here to stay.
>
>
> === 14. How do you fetch/get changes from upstream repositories? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + git protocol (e.g. git://git.example.com/repo.git)
> + ssh (e.g. ssh+git://git.example.com/repo.git,
> git.example.com:/srv/scm/repo.git)
> + http (e.g. http://git.example.com/repo.git)
> + rsync (DEPRECATED) (e.g. rsync://git.example.com/repo.git)
> + filesystem (e.g. /path/to/repo.git, file:///path/to/repo.git)
> + via git-bundle
> + foreign SCM (e.g. git-svn)
>
> + Other, please specify
Maybe git format-patch -> git am. Since it's already this complete.
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This question asks about how do you get changes (updates) from
> projects you follow into your local repository. It is not about how do
> you get latest version of Git.
>
> Fetching (or rather cloning) via bundle could mean that project
> publishes ready for download bundles to reduce traffic and load on
> server (HTTP download [of bundle] can be resumed, git-clone currently
> cannot; one can also distribute bundle using P2P).
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> What is new are examples of URLs / URIs for each protocol.
>
> Did I miss anything? Is this question interesting, and should it
> stay, or should it be removed?
>
>
> === 15. How do you publish/propagate your changes? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + push
> + pull request (+ any form of announcement / notification)
> + format-patch + email
> + format-patch + other (e.g. reviewboard, issue tracker or forum)
> + git bundle
>
> + git-svn (to Subversion repository)
> + git-p4 (to Perforce repository)
> + foreign SCM interface (other than mentioned above)
>
> + other - please specify
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Publishing via bundle could mean sending bundle via email, or posting
> it on review board (or forum).
>
> Instead of git-format-patch there can be utilized other way of
> generating patch (e.g. git-show, git-diff, 'patch' view from gitweb,
> etc.)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Should it stay, or should it be removed? I guess it can be
> interesting for git hosting sites... Should we have separate answrs
> for different kinds of push (ssh, "dumb" HTTP(S) with WebDAV, "smart"
> HTTP - if it is possible, git:// protocol with push enabled)?
>
>
> === 16. Which of the following features do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + "smart" HTTP protocol
> + git bundle (off-line transport)
> + eol conversion (crlf)
> + gitattributes
> + custom diff/merge driver
> + submodules (subprojects)
> + subtree merge (optionally git-subtree)
> + partial (sparse) checkout, or assume-unchanged bit
> + separate worktree / core.worktree
> + multiple worktrees (git-new-worktree)
> + alternates mechanism (sharing object database)
> + stash (optionally "git stash --keep-index")
> + shallow clone (e.g. "git clone --depth=<n>")
> + detaching HEAD (e.g. "git checkout HEAD^0")
> + interactive rebase (small scale history editing)
> + interactive commit / per-hunk comitting / partial commit
> + commit message templates
> + git-filter-branch or equivalent (large history rewriting)
> + bisect (optionally "git bisect run <script>")
> + committing with dirty tree (keeping some changes uncommitted)
> + non-default hooks (from contrib/hooks/ or other)
> + shell completion of commands
> + git-aware shell prompt
> + git aliases, shell aliases for git, or own git scripts
> + one-way interaction with other SCMs (from SCM to git)
> + two-way interaction with other SCMs (from SCM to git, from git to SCM)
> + git-cvsserver
> + git notes
>
> + Other, please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> The problem is come up not with exhaustive list of features: there are
> too many of them to list. The problem is coming up with list of
> important and used enough often features.
>
> So: what features should be included in this list? What features
> should be removed from above list of answers?
>
>
> === 17. Which of the following features would you like to see implemented in git? ===
> (multiple choice)
>
> + better support for big files (large media)
> + resumable clone/fetch (and other remote operations)
> + GitTorrent Protocol, or git-mirror
> + lazy clone / on-demand fetching of object
> + support for tracking empty directories
> + environmental variables in config,
> and expanding ~ and ~user in paths in config
> + better undo/abort/continue, and for more commands
> + '-n' like option for each command, which describes what would happen
> + side-by-side diffs and/or color-words diff in gitweb
> + admin and/or write features in gitweb
> + graphical history view in gitweb
> + GUI for rebase in git-gui
> + GUI for creating repository in git-gui
> + filename encoding (in repository vs in filesystem)
> + git push --create
> + localization of command-line messages
> + wholesame directory rename detection
> + graphical merge tool integrated with git-gui
> + union checkouts (some files from one branch, some from other)
> + advisory locking / "this file is being edited"
> + "commands issued" (or "command equivalents") in git-gui / gitk
> + warn before/when rewriting published history
> + built-in gitjour/bananajour support
> + syntax highlighting in git-gui
>
> + other (describe below)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This is new question, a multiple choice companion to a essay free-form
> question below. Included are a few example features (some from
> partial analysis of "19. What features would you like implemented in
> Git?" question in 2009 survey.
>
> What features should be mentioned besides those above? What criteria
> should we have for including features in this list?
I think "submodules that Just Work(TM)" or something similar should be
included. I.e. something the user doesn't have to worry about anymore
than they do a normal tree entry. Git's complex submodule support is
something I often hear complaints about.
> === 18. Describe what features would you like to have in Git, if it is
> not on the list above? ===
> (free form, essay length)
>
>
> == What you think of Git ==
>
> === 19. Overall, how happy are you with Git? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * unhappy
> * not so happy
> * happy
> * very happy
> * completely ecstatic
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> I'm not sure if this question is at all useful.
>
> There is also problem, that the current wording is considered biased
> by some, but on the other hand changing wording of answers would make
> it impossible to compare it to answers from previous surveys...
>
>
> === 20. In your opinion, which areas in Git need improvement? ===
> Please state your preference.
> (matrix)
>
> Columns: don't need / a little / some / much
> + user-interface
> + documentation
> + performance
> + more features
> + tools (e.g. GUI)
> + localization (translation)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Are there any general areas that are missing from this list?
> What are they?
>
>
> == Changes in Git (since year ago, or since you started using it) ==
>
> === 21. Did you participate in previous Git User's Surveys? ===
> (multiple choice)
>
> + in 2006
> + in 2007
> + in 2008
> + in 2009
> + none of the above
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This might be quite useful comparing with previous surveys. The
> answer 'none of the above' is new in this survey (as is 'in 2009',
> of course).
>
>
> === 22. How do you compare the current version with the version from one year ago? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * better
> * no changes
> * worse
>
> * cannot say
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This question was mainly excuse for providing list of main changes
> from the year ago. I think that this question should be removed, as
> it doesn't bring any important information.
>
>
> == Documentation. Getting help. ==
>
> === 23. How useful have you found the following forms of Git documentation? ===
> (matrix)
>
> Columns: never used / not useful / somewhat / useful
> + Git Wiki
> + on-line help
> + help distributed with git
>
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> * Git Wiki was to be found at http://git.wiki.kernel.org
> * on-line help includes, among others, Git Homepage (http://git-scm.com),
> "Git Community Book" (http://book.git-scm.com), "Pro Git" book
> (http://progit.org) and Git Reference site (http://gitref.org)
> * help distributed with git include manpages, manual, tutorials, HOWTO,
> release notes, technical documentation, contrib/examples/
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Should we split those answers further, e.g. separating on-line
> tutorials and guides, from on-line tips etc.?
>
>
> === 24. Have you tried to get help regarding Git from other people? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Yes
> * No
>
> === 25. If yes, did you get these problems resolved quickly and to your liking? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Yes
> * No
> * Somewhat
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Those two questions are not very useful. I think that they should be
> removed from 2010 survey.
>
>
> === 26. What channel(s) do you use to request help about git? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + git mailing list (git@vger.kernel.org)
> + "Git for Human Beings" Google Group
> + msysGit mailing list / Google Group
> + IRC (#git)
> + IRC (other git/SCM related, e.g. #github)
> + request in blog post or on wiki
> + asking git guru/colleague
> + project mailing list, or IRC, or forum
> + Twitter or other microblogging platform
> + instant messaging (IM) like XMPP/Jabber
> + StackOverflow or other StackExchange site
>
> + other (please specify)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Are there any main channels of requesting help that I have missed in
> the above list of answers? What are they, and why do you think they
> are important enought to warrant inclusion in above list?
>
>
> === 27. Which communication channel(s) do you use? ===
> Do you read the mailing list, or watch IRC channel?
> (multiple choice)
>
> + git@vger.kernel.org (main)
> + Git for Human Beings (Google Group)
> + msysGit
> + #git IRC channel
> + #git-devel IRC channel
> + #github or #gitorious IRC channel
> + #revctrl IRC channel
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Are there any communication channels that I have missed? For example
> is there a separate channel that JGit/EGit developers use?
FWIW: There were two non-bots on #git-devel when I joined it.
> == About this survey. Open forum. ==
>
> === 28. How did you hear about this Git User's Survey? ===
> (single choice, with other)
>
> * git mailing list
> * git-related mailing list (e.g. msysGit)
> * mailing list or forum of some project
> * #git IRC channel topic
> * announcement on IRC channel
> * git homepage
> * git wiki
> * git hosting site (or blog related to such site)
> * software-related web site
> * news or social news site (e.g. Digg, Reddit)
> * blog (or blog planet)
> * other kind of web site
> * Twitter or other microblogging platform
>
> * other - please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This list would of course be updated to reflect the list of (planned)
> announcement channels.
>
> There of course will be announcement on Git Mailing List, and perhaps
> also on msysGit list / Google Group, and on Git For Human Beings
> Google Group (if it exists). I'll announce it on #git, and ask op to
> put short announcement in channel description, and I can announce it
> on other IRC channels. I would add announcement to main page of Git
> Wiki, and as Git Homepage administrator to put announcement about Git
> User's Survey.
>
> I usually tried to contact administrators of git hosting sites,
> including git.kernel.org, repo.or.cz, GitHub, Gitorious, Assembla,
> Codebase and Unfuddle, asking them to put announcement about
> Git User's Survey either somewhere on the site, or in their blog
> (if there is any). What git hosting sites it is worth to ask?
>
> Sidenote: I am thinking about contacting different git hosting sites
> _before_ staring survey, asking them (them = administrators) about
> what questions would they like to see. Do you think thet it is good
> idea?
Yes, definitely.
> Should I try to post announcement on mailing list for projects that
> use git? There are entirely too many such projects nowadays, and such
> announcement can be considered spamming by some...
Yeah. Definitely for the big ones like the "Projects using Git" listed
on git-scm.com. I don't think it'll be considered spam.
> I would like to have announcement of Git User's Survey 2010 at
> LWN.net, but this would need to be send at least two weeks in advance,
> if I remember correctly. Is it worth it? What other news site should
> I (or you) send announcement to?
reddit, digg, hackernews, slashdot, ...
> If you can Digg / Reddit announcment on some site, please do. I can
> announce Git User's Survey 2-1- at Twitter, Identi.ca and Plurk, but I
> don't have wide area of followers. So please RT.
>
> Should we contact some bloggers (besides asking Junio to put
> announcement on his blog) to post an anouncement? Which bloggers
> would respond positively (perhaps Linus...)?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-04 0:21 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
@ 2010-07-04 8:13 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-07 9:18 ` Yann Dirson
2010-07-10 11:01 ` Felipe Contreras
1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-04 8:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason; +Cc: git
On Sun, 4 Jul 2010, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> 2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
[...]
> > == Getting started with Git ==
> >
> > === 03. Have you found Git easy to learn? ===
> > (single choice)
> >
> > * Very easy
> > * Easy
> > * Reasonably easy
> > * Hard
> > * Very hard
> >
> > === 04. Have you found Git easy to use? ===
> > (single choice)
> >
> > * Very easy
> > * Easy
> > * Reasonably easy
> > * Hard
> > * Very hard
> >
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > Those two questions, considered alone, doesn't tell us much. If one use
> > git, then usually one does not think it is too hard to use (unless forced to
> > use git by external circumstances, like project he/she works on using git).
> > On the other hand those two questions together give us some mesaure of git
> > learning curve, telling us if people consider git easy to use but hard to
> > learn, or vice versa ;-)
> >
> > I think it might be also good to have to calculate correlations, e.g. if
> > people who find git hard to use make use of its advanced features.
> >
> > The question is: should they stay, or should they go?
>
> They should probably stay. But they don't really ask the right
> question IMO. Which is not whether users think it's difficult to
> learn, but whether it's unreasonably difficult for the problem they're
> solving.
>
> I.e. jet aircraft are hard to operate, but they also do neat
> stuff. How hard is Git to learn for the problem it's solving?
The problem is how to formulate question about this issue. We cannot
really ask about perceived accidental and essential (inherent)
complexity, can we?
Perhaps something like this:
=== xx. Have you found distributed version control easy? ===
(multiple choice)
+ Very easy
+ Easy
+ Reasonably easy
+ Hard
+ Very hard
Or something like that, with separate question if DVCS is difficult
or not.
Alternatively we could ask about _relative_ ease of learning / use.
But I don't think this would go well (and I don't think we could get
good answers from that).
[...]
> > === 14. How do you fetch/get changes from upstream repositories? ===
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> >
> > + git protocol (e.g. git://git.example.com/repo.git)
> > + ssh (e.g. ssh+git://git.example.com/repo.git,
> > git.example.com:/srv/scm/repo.git)
> > + http (e.g. http://git.example.com/repo.git)
> > + rsync (DEPRECATED) (e.g. rsync://git.example.com/repo.git)
> > + filesystem (e.g. /path/to/repo.git, file:///path/to/repo.git)
> > + via git-bundle
> > + foreign SCM (e.g. git-svn)
> >
> > + Other, please specify
>
> Maybe git format-patch -> git am. Since it's already this complete.
Does anybody use git-format-patch + git-am for *fetching* (and cloning)?
[...]
> > === 17. Which of the following features would you like to see implemented in git? ===
> > (multiple choice)
> >
> > + better support for big files (large media)
> > + resumable clone/fetch (and other remote operations)
> > + GitTorrent Protocol, or git-mirror
> > + lazy clone / on-demand fetching of object
> > + support for tracking empty directories
> > + environmental variables in config,
> > and expanding ~ and ~user in paths in config
> > + better undo/abort/continue, and for more commands
> > + '-n' like option for each command, which describes what would happen
> > + side-by-side diffs and/or color-words diff in gitweb
> > + admin and/or write features in gitweb
> > + graphical history view in gitweb
> > + GUI for rebase in git-gui
> > + GUI for creating repository in git-gui
> > + filename encoding (in repository vs in filesystem)
> > + git push --create
> > + localization of command-line messages
> > + wholesame directory rename detection
> > + graphical merge tool integrated with git-gui
> > + union checkouts (some files from one branch, some from other)
> > + advisory locking / "this file is being edited"
> > + "commands issued" (or "command equivalents") in git-gui / gitk
> > + warn before/when rewriting published history
> > + built-in gitjour/bananajour support
> > + syntax highlighting in git-gui
> >
> > + other (describe below)
> >
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > This is new question, a multiple choice companion to a essay free-form
> > question below. Included are a few example features (some from
> > partial analysis of "19. What features would you like implemented in
> > Git?" question in 2009 survey.
> >
> > What features should be mentioned besides those above? What criteria
> > should we have for including features in this list?
>
> I think "submodules that Just Work(TM)" or something similar should be
> included. I.e. something the user doesn't have to worry about anymore
> than they do a normal tree entry. Git's complex submodule support is
> something I often hear complaints about.
I'll add 'better submodule support' to this list.
[...]
> > === 27. Which communication channel(s) do you use? ===
> > Do you read the mailing list, or watch IRC channel?
> > (multiple choice)
> >
> > + git@vger.kernel.org (main)
> > + Git for Human Beings (Google Group)
> > + msysGit
> > + #git IRC channel
> > + #git-devel IRC channel
> > + #github or #gitorious IRC channel
> > + #revctrl IRC channel
> >
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > Are there any communication channels that I have missed? For example
> > is there a separate channel that JGit/EGit developers use?
>
> FWIW: There were two non-bots on #git-devel when I joined it.
Well, Git User's Surveys always served more or less accidentally as
the source of information about git and git community ("we have wiki?"
from the first survey ;-))
> > == About this survey. Open forum. ==
> >
> > === 28. How did you hear about this Git User's Survey? ===
> > (single choice, with other)
> >
> > * git mailing list
> > * git-related mailing list (e.g. msysGit)
> > * mailing list or forum of some project
> > * #git IRC channel topic
> > * announcement on IRC channel
> > * git homepage
> > * git wiki
> > * git hosting site (or blog related to such site)
> > * software-related web site
> > * news or social news site (e.g. Digg, Reddit)
> > * blog (or blog planet)
> > * other kind of web site
> > * Twitter or other microblogging platform
> >
> > * other - please specify
> >
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > This list would of course be updated to reflect the list of (planned)
> > announcement channels.
> >
> > There of course will be announcement on Git Mailing List, and perhaps
> > also on msysGit list / Google Group, and on Git For Human Beings
> > Google Group (if it exists). I'll announce it on #git, and ask op to
> > put short announcement in channel description, and I can announce it
> > on other IRC channels. I would add announcement to main page of Git
> > Wiki, and as Git Homepage administrator to put announcement about Git
> > User's Survey.
> >
> > I usually tried to contact administrators of git hosting sites,
> > including git.kernel.org, repo.or.cz, GitHub, Gitorious, Assembla,
> > Codebase and Unfuddle, asking them to put announcement about
> > Git User's Survey either somewhere on the site, or in their blog
> > (if there is any). What git hosting sites it is worth to ask?
> >
> > Sidenote: I am thinking about contacting different git hosting sites
> > _before_ staring survey, asking them (them = administrators) about
> > what questions would they like to see. Do you think thet it is good
> > idea?
>
> Yes, definitely.
Which ones? I'll definitely contact GitHub, try to contact J.H. about
git.kernel.org and pasky about repo.or.cz, and contact admins/contact
of Assembla, Codebase, Unfuddle. Who else to contact?
>
> > Should I try to post announcement on mailing list for projects that
> > use git? There are entirely too many such projects nowadays, and such
> > announcement can be considered spamming by some...
>
> Yeah. Definitely for the big ones like the "Projects using Git" listed
> on git-scm.com. I don't think it'll be considered spam.
The questions is: which ones are big? Those on Git Homepage? Those
on "Git (software)" page on Git Wiki? Which ones to try to contact
besides those on this list (and what list if there is '?' here)?
* Linux kernel (LKML)
* Android (?)
* Debian (DWN list / wiki)
* Fedora (?)
* openSUSE (?)
* GIMP (?)
* GNOME (newren's blog?)
* jQuery? (?)
* OLPC? (olpc-devel?)
* Perl (perlbuzz, some Perl blogger?)
* Ruby on Rails (RubyForge, ?)
* Samba? (mailin list IIRC?)
* VLC? (vlc mailing list)
* Wine? (?)
* X.Org (freedesktop.org wiki?)
Sidenote: I can also try to post announcement on various wikis that
host some (more or less specific) information about how to do git
development for given project.
> > I would like to have announcement of Git User's Survey 2010 at
> > LWN.net, but this would need to be send at least two weeks in advance,
> > if I remember correctly. Is it worth it? What other news site should
> > I (or you) send announcement to?
>
> reddit, digg, hackernews, slashdot, ...
Reddit, Digg and HackerNews are social news sites, and all require
having some official (or at least official-sounding) already existing
page with official announcement (GMane link, or GitWiki page?). All
would also rquire upvoting...
> > If you can Digg / Reddit announcment on some site, please do. I can
> > announce Git User's Survey 2-1- at Twitter, Identi.ca and Plurk, but I
> > don't have wide area of followers. So please RT.
> >
> > Should we contact some bloggers (besides asking Junio to put
> > announcement on his blog) to post an anouncement? Which bloggers
> > would respond positively (perhaps Linus...)?
I can try to contact masukomi[1] (Kate Rhodes) and rtomayko[2]
(Ryan Tomayko), both of whom have written positively about Git
in the past, Junio C Hamano[3] of course, and perhaps also
Linus Torvalds[4]
[1] http://weblog.masukomi.org/
[2] http://tomayko.com/
[3] http://gitster.livejournal.com/
[4] http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/
You all can help, of course...
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-04 8:13 ` Jakub Narebski
@ 2010-07-07 9:18 ` Yann Dirson
2010-07-07 21:43 ` Jakub Narebski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Yann Dirson @ 2010-07-07 9:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
Jakub Narebski <jnareb <at> gmail.com> writes:
> === xx. Have you found distributed version control easy? ===
> (multiple choice)
>
> + Very easy
> + Easy
> + Reasonably easy
> + Hard
> + Very hard
>
> Or something like that, with separate question if DVCS is difficult
> or not.
>
> Alternatively we could ask about _relative_ ease of learning / use.
> But I don't think this would go well (and I don't think we could get
> good answers from that).
Related to that, would be whether the user was familiar with DVCS before
starting to use git, or even familiar with VCS - the answers would be different
for people for whom git is the first VCS they ever used, or for people having
used other DVCS before...
> Well, Git User's Surveys always served more or less accidentally as
> the source of information about git and git community ("we have wiki?"
> from the first survey )
Count me in for "we have git new-worktree ?" :)
In fact, I found nothing by that name in git's tree or in the wiki's
InterfacesFrontendsAndTools. Google finally pointed me to contrib/ where I
noticed workdir/git-new-workdir.
It may be worth to use a URL for publicizing non-mainstream stuff. That's
better as publicizing goes, and makes it easy to crowdsource discovery of
mistakes or outdated things.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-07 9:18 ` Yann Dirson
@ 2010-07-07 21:43 ` Jakub Narebski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-07 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Yann Dirson; +Cc: git
Yann Dirson <ydirson@free.fr> writes:
> Jakub Narebski <jnareb <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > === xx. Have you found distributed version control easy? ===
> > (multiple choice)
> >
> > + Very easy
> > + Easy
> > + Reasonably easy
> > + Hard
> > + Very hard
> >
> > Or something like that, with separate question if DVCS is difficult
> > or not.
> >
> > Alternatively we could ask about _relative_ ease of learning / use.
> > But I don't think this would go well (and I don't think we could get
> > good answers from that).
>
> Related to that, would be whether the user was familiar with DVCS before
> starting to use git, or even familiar with VCS - the answers would be different
> for people for whom git is the first VCS they ever used, or for people having
> used other DVCS before...
Relative ease of use of Git as compared to perceived ease of
distributed version control as generic subject.
But I don't think it is a good way to go (and get meaningfull
answers).
> > Well, Git User's Surveys always served more or less accidentally as
> > the source of information about git and git community ("we have wiki?"
> > from the first survey )
>
> Count me in for "we have git new-worktree ?" :)
> In fact, I found nothing by that name in git's tree or in the wiki's
> InterfacesFrontendsAndTools. Google finally pointed me to contrib/ where I
> noticed workdir/git-new-workdir.
>
> It may be worth to use a URL for publicizing non-mainstream stuff. That's
> better as publicizing goes, and makes it easy to crowdsource discovery of
> mistakes or outdated things.
Hmmm... perhaps it would be worth to create GitContrib page on Git
Wiki, and link it from InterfacesFrontendsAndTools page...
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
ShadeHawk on #git
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-04 0:21 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2010-07-04 8:13 ` Jakub Narebski
@ 2010-07-10 11:01 ` Felipe Contreras
1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Felipe Contreras @ 2010-07-10 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason; +Cc: Jakub Narebski, git
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
<avarab@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
>
> This survey is good stuff. Some minor comments below.
Please remove the context of the mail you are not replying to.
It's very difficult to read otherwise.
--
Felipe Contreras
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-03 19:58 [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend) Jakub Narebski
2010-07-04 0:21 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
@ 2010-07-04 9:07 ` David Bainbridge
2010-07-04 11:14 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-04 22:43 ` Scott Chacon
` (3 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: David Bainbridge @ 2010-07-04 9:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
Hi Jakub,
First, as someone working in a company that is adopting Git can I say
that I found the results of previous surveys useful? So I think that
these surveys should continue :-)
I think that the reduction of free text fields is good ... I am
concerned that if I point several hundred users at the this survey and
encourage them to respond that you should not get swamped!
The surveys are actually useful for making people more aware of what
Git can do, and the other tools associated with Git, so this is
something of bear in mind.
Have you considered the question: 'How long have you been using Git?'.
This combined the expertise level might yield some useful information,
and could provide some weighting for the 'Getting started' questions
too. There are some problems with the question in that it could be,
say, 2 years intermittent use, or 2 years continuous use, and these
are different, of course.
The demographic information is useful if you want to understand
whether Git is (for example) considered less usable in countries where
English is not the native language. But then if you want to know the
native language of the user rather than where they live then perhaps
this should be asked? (I was born in the UK, but now live in Sweden
... so I am perhaps more conscious of this!). Where you are born does
not necessarily identify your native language either.
Do you want to separate work usage and 'non-work' usage at all? The
two experiences may be completely different. If I am working at home I
can use what ever I want, and work how I want. This will probably not
be the case in a corporate environment, so I would report one set of
results for 'work' and another for 'non-work'. This could generate two
survey returns for a single user. Is this intended?
Just a couple of thoughts :-)
David Bainbridge
Sweden
2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
> I'm sorry for broken (badly wrapped) previous version...
> ----
>
> I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
> there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
>
> here is how it was for previous surveys:
> * 2009 was open from 15 July to 15 September 2009 (for 2 months)
> * 2008 was open from 31 August to 14 October 2008 (for 1.5 months)
> * 2007 was open from 20 August to 10 September 2007 (for 20 days)
> (officially: results are up until 28 September 2007)
> * 2006 was open from 23 July to 6-12 September 2006
> (for a bit less than 2 months)
>
> With more that 3000 responses in 2008 and 2009 survey, analysing
> free-form data was hard. That is why in this proposal there is only
> single one free-form response (about missing features).
>
> What questions (and with what proposed answers) shound there be in
> this year survey? Below there is the content of the proposed survey:
>
>
> = Git User's Survey 2010 (proposal) =
>
> == About you ==
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This section gives us a bit of demographical information about survey
> responders. Is it useful? Should we leave it in survey, or remove it?
>
> Should we for example include 'gender' as one of questions? Perl Survey
> 2010 did.
>
>
> === 01. What country do you live in? ===
> (Country of residence)
> (free-form single line)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Perhaps a better solution would be a menu (drop-down list) of countries,
> using list of current countries. It would be more work to create it, but
> might reduce ambiguities and unparsable responses.
>
> What I'd like to have is to pre-fill / select default answer based on GeoIP.
> Even better would be to be able to show current position on Google Map, like
> contributors and users map on Ohloh... but that I think is simply not
> possible with Survs.com, the site to be used for this survey (and I guess
> neither with any other survey site). One can dream.
>
> Pel Survey 2010 also included (from what I remember, and from provided data
> and analysis of survey) also country of origin / country of birth, to
> measure mobility. I wonder if it would make sense to have the same for Git
> User's Survey 2010... Note that it would be harder to come up with the list
> of countries for such question, because the country might no longer exists.
> Therefore the list (if present) should be based on all countries that exist
> or existed since 100 years ago (or so).
>
>
> === 02. How old are you (in years)? ===
> (free-form single line)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Instead of unconstrained free-form response it might be better to have
> single choice (or menu) of age ranges. What do you think? Of course with
> ranges there is question what ranges to use (how to quantize age); goo
> solution would be to chose ranges corresponding somewhat to the levels of
> education.
>
>
> == Getting started with Git ==
>
> === 03. Have you found Git easy to learn? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Very easy
> * Easy
> * Reasonably easy
> * Hard
> * Very hard
>
> === 04. Have you found Git easy to use? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Very easy
> * Easy
> * Reasonably easy
> * Hard
> * Very hard
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Those two questions, considered alone, doesn't tell us much. If one use
> git, then usually one does not think it is too hard to use (unless forced to
> use git by external circumstances, like project he/she works on using git).
> On the other hand those two questions together give us some mesaure of git
> learning curve, telling us if people consider git easy to use but hard to
> learn, or vice versa ;-)
>
> I think it might be also good to have to calculate correlations, e.g. if
> people who find git hard to use make use of its advanced features.
>
> The question is: should they stay, or should they go?
>
>
> === 05. Which Git version(s) are you using? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + pre 1.3
> + 1.3.x
> + 1.4.x
> + 1.5.x
> + 1.6.x
> + 1.7.x
>
> + minor (maintenance) release 1.x.y.z
> + 'master' branch of official git repository
> + 'next' branch of official git repository
> + 'pu' branch of official git repository
> + version from msysGit / Git for Windows fork repository
> + git-bigfiles fork
> + JGit implementation (e.g. via Eclipse plugin, EGit)
>
> + other, please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> A few of possible answers are new in this version of survey, namely 'pu',
> msysGit, git-bigfiles, JGit, and of course 1.7.x.
>
> This question is here to stay.
>
>
> === 06. Rate your own proficiency with Git: ===
> (single choice)
>
> * 1. novice
> * 2. casual, needs advice
> * 3. everyday use
> * 4. can offer advice
> * 5. know it very well
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This question tell us penetration of announcements of Git User's Survey 2010;
> did we get to all, or only to git gurus? It is also useful for correlating
> with other responses, for example to know which features are used by
> novices, and which by gurus.
>
>
> == How you use Git ==
>
> === 07. I use Git for (check all that apply): ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> Note that above choices are neither orthogonal nor exclusive. One
> might want to check multiple answers even for a single repository.
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Answers to this question probe different direction.
> This list is interspersed with comments about specific
> (sub)sections.
>
> + work projects
> + unpaid projects
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those two are about using git at work vs using git on your own free time.
> There are of course shades of gray, like using git for work project
> unofficially (e.g.using git-svn as "fat" client for company's Subversion
> repository), or employer allowing to work on non-work OSS project during
> working hours. But I'm not sure if they are worth adding.
>
> + proprietary projects
> + OSS development (also public domain, and published & unlicensed)
> + private (unpublished)
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those three are about licensing: proprietary / free (open) / unlicensed.
> By 'OSS development' I mean here also free licenses for documentation and
> documents, like GFDL or Creative Commons licenses.
>
> + code (programming)
> + personal data
> + documents (data)
> + static website
> + web app
> + large (> 1MB) binary files
> + often changing binary files
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> This is about what kind of data do you store in git. I am a bit unsure
> whether it is worth separating 'web app'; it is 'code'.
>
> New in this edition of survey is 'large binary data' and 'often changing
> binary files'... but should 'large' cutoff be 1MB, or 10MB, or 50MB, or
> 100MB?
>
> I'm not sure about having 'personal data'...
>
> + sharing data or sync
> + managing configuration files
> + backup
> + backend for wiki, blog, or other web app
> + frontend to other SCM (e.g. git-svn)
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> This is about (ab)using git for other things than straighforward source
> control management. List of possible answers specified here should cover
> most commonly encountered usages: shdoul we add anything else here?
>
> + other (please specify)
>
>
> === 08. How do/did you obtain Git (install and/or upgrade)? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> Note that this question is multiple choices question because one can
> install Git in different ways on different machines or on different
> operating systems.
>
> + binary package
> + source package or script
> + source tarball
> + pull from (main) repository
> + preinstalled / sysadmin job
>
> + other - please specify
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Explanation: "binary package" covers pre-compiled binary (e.g. from
> rpm or deb binary packages); "source package" covers things like
> deb-src and SRPMS / *.src.rpm; "source script" is meant to cover
> installation in source-based distributions, like 'emerge' in Gentoo.
>
> Automatic update (apt, yum, etc.) in most cases means binary package
> install; unless one uses source-based distribution like Gentoo, CRUX,
> or SourceMage, where automatic update means using source package (or
> source script).
>
> The option named "preinstalled / sysadmin job" means that either you
> didn't need to install git because it was preinstalled (and you didn't
> upgrade); or that you have to ask system administrator to have git
> installed or upgraded.
>
> Note that this question is multiple choices question because one can
> install Git in different ways on different machines or on different
> operating systems.
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> What I didn't take into account in above explanation is operating
> systems with packaging systems different that the one used by various
> Linux distributions.
>
> In short: if to have git installed you compile it, you use source
> package or source tarball. If the installation onvolves anything more
> than 'make install' (or manual copying), then it is most probably
> source package or script.
>
> This for example means that "msysGit" installer is source package, and
> "Git for Windows" is binary package, if I understand it correctly.
>
>
> === 09. On which operating system(s) do you use Git? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + Linux (includes MeeGo and Moblin)
> + MacOS X (Darwin)
> + MS Windows/msysGit (MINGW)
> + MS Windows/Cygwin
> + FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc.
> + other Unix
>
> + iPhone OS
> + Android
> + WebOS
>
> + Other, please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> The iPhone OS, Androind and WebOS answers are new this year.
> OpenSolaris died, so I removed it. I wonder if it is worth it to
> differentiate between MS Windows/msysGit and MS Windows/Cygwin, or if
> we should just have one, single 'MS Windows' choice.
>
>
> === 10. What do you use to edit contents under version control with Git? ===
> What kind of editor, IDE or RAD you use working with Git?
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + simple text editor
> + programmers editor
> + IDE or RAD
> + WYSIWYG tool
>
> + other kind
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> * "simple text editor" option includes editors such as pico, nano,
> joe, Notepad,
>
> * "programmets editor" option includes editors such as Emacs/XEmacs,
> Vim, TextMate, SciTE (syntax highlighting, autoindentation,
> integration with other programmers tools, etc.)
>
> * "IDE (Integrated Development Environment) and RAD (Rapid Application
> Development)" option includes tools such as Eclipse, NetBeans IDE,
> IntelliJ IDE, MS Visual Studio, KDevelop, Anjuta, Xcode,
> Code::Blocks but also tools such as Quanta+, BlueFish or Screem (for
> editing HTML, CSS, PHP etc.), and Kile or LEd for LaTeX.
>
> * "WYSIWYG tools" option includes word processors such as MS Office or
> OpenOffice.org, but also tools such as Adobe Acrobat (for PDF) or
> GIMP (for images), or WYSIWYG DTP tools such as QuarkXPress,
> PageMaker or Scribus, or WYSIWYG HTML editors such as FrontPage,
> Dreamweaver or KompoZer.
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Is this question useful, or should it be removed from survey?
>
>
> === 11. What Git interfaces and frontends do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + Cogito (DEPRECATED)
> + Easy Git
> + Pyrite
> + I don't know, I only use (graphical) tools
>
> + pg aka Patchy Git (DEPRECATED)
> + StGIT
> + Guilt
> + TopGit
>
> + other (please specify)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This version is going back to split from 2008 survey, rather than
> having everything put together like in 2009 one. There are, of
> course, problems with both choices.
>
> The problem with split part is that people can have troubls with
> distinguising between interfaces, implementations, frontends and tools
> (although "I don't know ..." answer should, I think, help here). The
> problem with having it everything together is that the list of
> possible answers gets long and a bit unwieldy.
>
> BTW are there any implementations and frontends that should be added
> to the list above?
>
>
> === 12. What kind of Git tools do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> If a tool is both history viewer, and commit tool, please choose the
> option that corresponds to how do you use this tool.
>
> + editor/IDE VC integration (e.g. EGit, TextMate bundle, magit)
> + filemanager / shell extension (e.g. git-cheetah, TortoiseGit)
> + graphical history viewer/browser (e.g. gitk)
> + graphical commit tool (e.g. git-gui)
> + graphical diff and/or merge tool (e.g. Kompare, Meld)
> + graphical blame or pickaxe tool
> + git-instaweb, or self-hosted web interface
> + tool to manage git repositories (e.g. Gitosis, Gitolite)
>
> + my own scripts (for daily use)
> + my own scripts (for special tasks)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> As the number of tools increases (see InterfacesFrontendsAndTools page
> on git wiki), having them listed all there gets a bit unwieldy. On
> the other hand it was a good way to find new tools that were not yet
> included on IFaT page. What do you think: should it be about tools,
> or only about kind of tools used with git?
>
> What do you think about this list? IS there something that should not
> be here? Or perhaps there is something that should be added to this
> list?
>
>
> === 13. Which git hosting site(s) do you use for your project(s)? ===
> Please check only hosting sites where you publish/push to (with git)
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + [http://repo.or.cz repo.or.cz]
> + [http://github.com GitHub]
> + [http://gitorious.org Gitorious]
> + [http://www.indefero.net InDefero]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are generic git hosting sites, each of them showcasing their own
> tool, all except GitHub open source (it is Girocco for repo.or.cz; for
> the rest the tool is named the same as the git hosting site).
>
> + [http://savannah.gnu.org Savannah]
> + [http://sourceforge.net SourceForge]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Generic software hosting sites, with git support. Did I miss
> something, should I include yet another site?
>
> + [http://www.assembla.com Assembla]
> + [http://codebasehq.com Codebase]
> + [http://unfuddle.com Unfuddle]
> - [http://codesion.com Codesion]
> - [http://gitfarm.appspot.com GitFarm]
> - [http://www.projectlocker.com ProjectLocker]
> - [http://thechaw.com The Chaw]
> - [http://unfuddle.com Unfuddle]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are commercial and/or less known git hosting sites. I am not
> sure which ones of those marked with '-' to include, and whether to
> include other sites from GitHosting page on git wiki. What do you
> think?
>
> + [http://git.kernel.org kernel.org]
> + [http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/ freedesktop.org]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are 'git hosting site for related projects', but are special in
> some sense. Should I leave them there, or remove from this list?
>
> + [http://alioth.debian.org Alioth] (Debian)
> + [http://hosted.fedoraproject.org Fedora Hosted]
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Those are distribution-specific. Are there any sites that I missed?
> Launchpad from Ubuntu does not count, as it is Bazaar hosting site,
> not Git hosting site.
>
> + git hosting site for related projects
> + generic site without git support
> + self hosted
>
> Notes:
> ^^^^^^
> Are ther other kinds / typse of sites one can host project using git
> on? What are they?
>
> + Other (please specify)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> I think this question is here to stay.
>
>
> === 14. How do you fetch/get changes from upstream repositories? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + git protocol (e.g. git://git.example.com/repo.git)
> + ssh (e.g. ssh+git://git.example.com/repo.git,
> git.example.com:/srv/scm/repo.git)
> + http (e.g. http://git.example.com/repo.git)
> + rsync (DEPRECATED) (e.g. rsync://git.example.com/repo.git)
> + filesystem (e.g. /path/to/repo.git, file:///path/to/repo.git)
> + via git-bundle
> + foreign SCM (e.g. git-svn)
>
> + Other, please specify
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This question asks about how do you get changes (updates) from
> projects you follow into your local repository. It is not about how do
> you get latest version of Git.
>
> Fetching (or rather cloning) via bundle could mean that project
> publishes ready for download bundles to reduce traffic and load on
> server (HTTP download [of bundle] can be resumed, git-clone currently
> cannot; one can also distribute bundle using P2P).
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> What is new are examples of URLs / URIs for each protocol.
>
> Did I miss anything? Is this question interesting, and should it
> stay, or should it be removed?
>
>
> === 15. How do you publish/propagate your changes? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + push
> + pull request (+ any form of announcement / notification)
> + format-patch + email
> + format-patch + other (e.g. reviewboard, issue tracker or forum)
> + git bundle
>
> + git-svn (to Subversion repository)
> + git-p4 (to Perforce repository)
> + foreign SCM interface (other than mentioned above)
>
> + other - please specify
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Publishing via bundle could mean sending bundle via email, or posting
> it on review board (or forum).
>
> Instead of git-format-patch there can be utilized other way of
> generating patch (e.g. git-show, git-diff, 'patch' view from gitweb,
> etc.)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Should it stay, or should it be removed? I guess it can be
> interesting for git hosting sites... Should we have separate answrs
> for different kinds of push (ssh, "dumb" HTTP(S) with WebDAV, "smart"
> HTTP - if it is possible, git:// protocol with push enabled)?
>
>
> === 16. Which of the following features do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + "smart" HTTP protocol
> + git bundle (off-line transport)
> + eol conversion (crlf)
> + gitattributes
> + custom diff/merge driver
> + submodules (subprojects)
> + subtree merge (optionally git-subtree)
> + partial (sparse) checkout, or assume-unchanged bit
> + separate worktree / core.worktree
> + multiple worktrees (git-new-worktree)
> + alternates mechanism (sharing object database)
> + stash (optionally "git stash --keep-index")
> + shallow clone (e.g. "git clone --depth=<n>")
> + detaching HEAD (e.g. "git checkout HEAD^0")
> + interactive rebase (small scale history editing)
> + interactive commit / per-hunk comitting / partial commit
> + commit message templates
> + git-filter-branch or equivalent (large history rewriting)
> + bisect (optionally "git bisect run <script>")
> + committing with dirty tree (keeping some changes uncommitted)
> + non-default hooks (from contrib/hooks/ or other)
> + shell completion of commands
> + git-aware shell prompt
> + git aliases, shell aliases for git, or own git scripts
> + one-way interaction with other SCMs (from SCM to git)
> + two-way interaction with other SCMs (from SCM to git, from git to SCM)
> + git-cvsserver
> + git notes
>
> + Other, please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> The problem is come up not with exhaustive list of features: there are
> too many of them to list. The problem is coming up with list of
> important and used enough often features.
>
> So: what features should be included in this list? What features
> should be removed from above list of answers?
>
>
> === 17. Which of the following features would you like to see implemented in git? ===
> (multiple choice)
>
> + better support for big files (large media)
> + resumable clone/fetch (and other remote operations)
> + GitTorrent Protocol, or git-mirror
> + lazy clone / on-demand fetching of object
> + support for tracking empty directories
> + environmental variables in config,
> and expanding ~ and ~user in paths in config
> + better undo/abort/continue, and for more commands
> + '-n' like option for each command, which describes what would happen
> + side-by-side diffs and/or color-words diff in gitweb
> + admin and/or write features in gitweb
> + graphical history view in gitweb
> + GUI for rebase in git-gui
> + GUI for creating repository in git-gui
> + filename encoding (in repository vs in filesystem)
> + git push --create
> + localization of command-line messages
> + wholesame directory rename detection
> + graphical merge tool integrated with git-gui
> + union checkouts (some files from one branch, some from other)
> + advisory locking / "this file is being edited"
> + "commands issued" (or "command equivalents") in git-gui / gitk
> + warn before/when rewriting published history
> + built-in gitjour/bananajour support
> + syntax highlighting in git-gui
>
> + other (describe below)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This is new question, a multiple choice companion to a essay free-form
> question below. Included are a few example features (some from
> partial analysis of "19. What features would you like implemented in
> Git?" question in 2009 survey.
>
> What features should be mentioned besides those above? What criteria
> should we have for including features in this list?
>
> === 18. Describe what features would you like to have in Git, if it is
> not on the list above? ===
> (free form, essay length)
>
>
> == What you think of Git ==
>
> === 19. Overall, how happy are you with Git? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * unhappy
> * not so happy
> * happy
> * very happy
> * completely ecstatic
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> I'm not sure if this question is at all useful.
>
> There is also problem, that the current wording is considered biased
> by some, but on the other hand changing wording of answers would make
> it impossible to compare it to answers from previous surveys...
>
>
> === 20. In your opinion, which areas in Git need improvement? ===
> Please state your preference.
> (matrix)
>
> Columns: don't need / a little / some / much
> + user-interface
> + documentation
> + performance
> + more features
> + tools (e.g. GUI)
> + localization (translation)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Are there any general areas that are missing from this list?
> What are they?
>
>
> == Changes in Git (since year ago, or since you started using it) ==
>
> === 21. Did you participate in previous Git User's Surveys? ===
> (multiple choice)
>
> + in 2006
> + in 2007
> + in 2008
> + in 2009
> + none of the above
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This might be quite useful comparing with previous surveys. The
> answer 'none of the above' is new in this survey (as is 'in 2009',
> of course).
>
>
> === 22. How do you compare the current version with the version from one year ago? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * better
> * no changes
> * worse
>
> * cannot say
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This question was mainly excuse for providing list of main changes
> from the year ago. I think that this question should be removed, as
> it doesn't bring any important information.
>
>
> == Documentation. Getting help. ==
>
> === 23. How useful have you found the following forms of Git documentation? ===
> (matrix)
>
> Columns: never used / not useful / somewhat / useful
> + Git Wiki
> + on-line help
> + help distributed with git
>
>
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> * Git Wiki was to be found at http://git.wiki.kernel.org
> * on-line help includes, among others, Git Homepage (http://git-scm.com),
> "Git Community Book" (http://book.git-scm.com), "Pro Git" book
> (http://progit.org) and Git Reference site (http://gitref.org)
> * help distributed with git include manpages, manual, tutorials, HOWTO,
> release notes, technical documentation, contrib/examples/
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Should we split those answers further, e.g. separating on-line
> tutorials and guides, from on-line tips etc.?
>
>
> === 24. Have you tried to get help regarding Git from other people? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Yes
> * No
>
> === 25. If yes, did you get these problems resolved quickly and to your liking? ===
> (single choice)
>
> * Yes
> * No
> * Somewhat
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Those two questions are not very useful. I think that they should be
> removed from 2010 survey.
>
>
> === 26. What channel(s) do you use to request help about git? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + git mailing list (git@vger.kernel.org)
> + "Git for Human Beings" Google Group
> + msysGit mailing list / Google Group
> + IRC (#git)
> + IRC (other git/SCM related, e.g. #github)
> + request in blog post or on wiki
> + asking git guru/colleague
> + project mailing list, or IRC, or forum
> + Twitter or other microblogging platform
> + instant messaging (IM) like XMPP/Jabber
> + StackOverflow or other StackExchange site
>
> + other (please specify)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Are there any main channels of requesting help that I have missed in
> the above list of answers? What are they, and why do you think they
> are important enought to warrant inclusion in above list?
>
>
> === 27. Which communication channel(s) do you use? ===
> Do you read the mailing list, or watch IRC channel?
> (multiple choice)
>
> + git@vger.kernel.org (main)
> + Git for Human Beings (Google Group)
> + msysGit
> + #git IRC channel
> + #git-devel IRC channel
> + #github or #gitorious IRC channel
> + #revctrl IRC channel
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Are there any communication channels that I have missed? For example
> is there a separate channel that JGit/EGit developers use?
>
>
> == About this survey. Open forum. ==
>
> === 28. How did you hear about this Git User's Survey? ===
> (single choice, with other)
>
> * git mailing list
> * git-related mailing list (e.g. msysGit)
> * mailing list or forum of some project
> * #git IRC channel topic
> * announcement on IRC channel
> * git homepage
> * git wiki
> * git hosting site (or blog related to such site)
> * software-related web site
> * news or social news site (e.g. Digg, Reddit)
> * blog (or blog planet)
> * other kind of web site
> * Twitter or other microblogging platform
>
> * other - please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This list would of course be updated to reflect the list of (planned)
> announcement channels.
>
> There of course will be announcement on Git Mailing List, and perhaps
> also on msysGit list / Google Group, and on Git For Human Beings
> Google Group (if it exists). I'll announce it on #git, and ask op to
> put short announcement in channel description, and I can announce it
> on other IRC channels. I would add announcement to main page of Git
> Wiki, and as Git Homepage administrator to put announcement about Git
> User's Survey.
>
> I usually tried to contact administrators of git hosting sites,
> including git.kernel.org, repo.or.cz, GitHub, Gitorious, Assembla,
> Codebase and Unfuddle, asking them to put announcement about
> Git User's Survey either somewhere on the site, or in their blog
> (if there is any). What git hosting sites it is worth to ask?
>
> Sidenote: I am thinking about contacting different git hosting sites
> _before_ staring survey, asking them (them = administrators) about
> what questions would they like to see. Do you think thet it is good
> idea?
>
> Should I try to post announcement on mailing list for projects that
> use git? There are entirely too many such projects nowadays, and such
> announcement can be considered spamming by some...
>
> I would like to have announcement of Git User's Survey 2010 at
> LWN.net, but this would need to be send at least two weeks in advance,
> if I remember correctly. Is it worth it? What other news site should
> I (or you) send announcement to?
>
> If you can Digg / Reddit announcment on some site, please do. I can
> announce Git User's Survey 2-1- at Twitter, Identi.ca and Plurk, but I
> don't have wide area of followers. So please RT.
>
> Should we contact some bloggers (besides asking Junio to put
> announcement on his blog) to post an anouncement? Which bloggers
> would respond positively (perhaps Linus...)?
>
> --
> Jakub Narebski
> Poland
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-04 9:07 ` David Bainbridge
@ 2010-07-04 11:14 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-04 20:48 ` David Bainbridge
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-04 11:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Bainbridge; +Cc: git
On Sun, 4 July 2010, David Bainbridge wrote:
> First, as someone working in a company that is adopting Git can I say
> that I found the results of previous surveys useful? So I think that
> these surveys should continue :-)
Thank you very much for the words of encouragement.
> I think that the reduction of free text fields is good ... I am
> concerned that if I point several hundred users at the this survey and
> encourage them to respond that you should not get swamped!
I had idea of running some kind of natural text processing analyser
for analysis of free-form responses[1], but nothing came out of this
(currently).
[1]:http://stackoverflow.com/questions/887954/how-to-categorize-and-tabularize-free-form-answers-to-a-question-in-a-survey
>
> The surveys are actually useful for making people more aware of what
> Git can do, and the other tools associated with Git, so this is
> something of bear in mind.
Well, this year there is no question about how often one uses specified
git commands. In my opinion it made responding to survey too long, and
it was not balanced by people learning about new commands, I don't
think.
> Have you considered the question: 'How long have you been using Git?'.
> This combined the expertise level might yield some useful information,
> and could provide some weighting for the 'Getting started' questions
> too. There are some problems with the question in that it could be,
> say, 2 years intermittent use, or 2 years continuous use, and these
> are different, of course.
Well, such question was replaced by the question about one's own
proficiency in Git in 2009 survey (IIRC).
> > === 06. Rate your own proficiency with Git: ===
> > (single choice)
> >
> > * 1. novice
> > * 2. casual, needs advice
> > * 3. everyday use
> > * 4. can offer advice
> > * 5. know it very well
The problem with question "How long have you been using Git?" (beside
what you have mentioned) is that it is hard to answer correctly / in
detail for longer times.
Perhaps something like this:
=== xx. How long have you been using Git? ===
(single choice, with other)
* less than week
* between a week and a month
* a few months
* a few years
* duration (please give units)
What do you think?
> The demographic information is useful if you want to understand
> whether Git is (for example) considered less usable in countries where
> English is not the native language. But then if you want to know the
> native language of the user rather than where they live then perhaps
> this should be asked? (I was born in the UK, but now live in Sweden
> ... so I am perhaps more conscious of this!). Where you are born does
> not necessarily identify your native language either.
The problem with this question in the past was twofold: first, people
sometimes mistok it for question about _programming languages. Second
should this question be about primary language / languages, or about
language ones prefer the computer to communicate with?
> Do you want to separate work usage and 'non-work' usage at all? The
> two experiences may be completely different. If I am working at home I
> can use what ever I want, and work how I want. This will probably not
> be the case in a corporate environment, so I would report one set of
> results for 'work' and another for 'non-work'. This could generate two
> survey returns for a single user. Is this intended?
Hmmmm... food for though. It can be mentioned somewhere close to
beginning that one can fill this survey more than once (from different
computers if using default version with cookies) for different roles
one plays. Perhaps with checkbox "additional role" (aka. "I have already
filed this survey" ;-))...
> Just a couple of thoughts :-)
Thanks a lot for your comments. I appreciate it.
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-04 11:14 ` Jakub Narebski
@ 2010-07-04 20:48 ` David Bainbridge
2010-07-05 7:19 ` Jakub Narebski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: David Bainbridge @ 2010-07-04 20:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
Hi Jakub,
It sounds like I was revisiting old territory in some cases :-)
The thoughts about free text analysis were interesting though ...
On 4 July 2010 13:14, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 July 2010, David Bainbridge wrote:
>
>> Have you considered the question: 'How long have you been using Git?'.
>> This combined the expertise level might yield some useful information,
>> and could provide some weighting for the 'Getting started' questions
>> too. There are some problems with the question in that it could be,
>> say, 2 years intermittent use, or 2 years continuous use, and these
>> are different, of course.
>
> Well, such question was replaced by the question about one's own
> proficiency in Git in 2009 survey (IIRC).
>
>> > === 06. Rate your own proficiency with Git: ===
>> > (single choice)
>> >
>> > * 1. novice
>> > * 2. casual, needs advice
>> > * 3. everyday use
>> > * 4. can offer advice
>> > * 5. know it very well
>
> The problem with question "How long have you been using Git?" (beside
> what you have mentioned) is that it is hard to answer correctly / in
> detail for longer times.
>
> Perhaps something like this:
>
> === xx. How long have you been using Git? ===
> (single choice, with other)
>
> * less than week
> * between a week and a month
> * a few months
> * a few years
> * duration (please give units)
>
> What do you think?
I think that the granularity is about right. I think we could imagine
where we would expect people to be proficiency-wise with those
periods. Not sure about the last option ... You have everything from
days, to weeks to months to years in the main options. What did you
have in mind?
>
>> The demographic information is useful if you want to understand
>> whether Git is (for example) considered less usable in countries where
>> English is not the native language. But then if you want to know the
>> native language of the user rather than where they live then perhaps
>> this should be asked? (I was born in the UK, but now live in Sweden
>> ... so I am perhaps more conscious of this!). Where you are born does
>> not necessarily identify your native language either.
>
> The problem with this question in the past was twofold: first, people
> sometimes mistok it for question about _programming languages. Second
> should this question be about primary language / languages, or about
> language ones prefer the computer to communicate with?
Obviously you have been though this loop before! But perhaps if you
are using drop-down lists then this makes it obvious what is required.
I guess both the programming language, and the preferred interaction
language could be relevant.
We may want to know whether Git is more 'acceptable' to the Java
community or the C/C++ community for example, or whether certain
suggestions for improvement are coming from a community around a
particular language.
Then with the human languages this could drive the localization of the
commands, as well as the documentation localization. Interesting ...
>
>> Do you want to separate work usage and 'non-work' usage at all? The
>> two experiences may be completely different. If I am working at home I
>> can use what ever I want, and work how I want. This will probably not
>> be the case in a corporate environment, so I would report one set of
>> results for 'work' and another for 'non-work'. This could generate two
>> survey returns for a single user. Is this intended?
>
> Hmmmm... food for though. It can be mentioned somewhere close to
> beginning that one can fill this survey more than once (from different
> computers if using default version with cookies) for different roles
> one plays. Perhaps with checkbox "additional role" (aka. "I have already
> filed this survey" ;-))...
>
Thats sounds reasonable ... I think it is probably useful to capture a
user-role response. The priorities of users and their needs may be
completely different in a work situation.
>
>> Just a couple of thoughts :-)
>
> Thanks a lot for your comments. I appreciate it.
No problem ... I will have another read through your original mail and
see if there is anything else!
All the best,
David Bainbridge
Sweden
> --
> Jakub Narebski
> Poland
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-04 20:48 ` David Bainbridge
@ 2010-07-05 7:19 ` Jakub Narebski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-05 7:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Bainbridge; +Cc: git
On Sun, 4 July 2010, David Bainbridge wrote:
> It sounds like I was revisiting old territory in some cases :-)
Nevertheless the discussion is interesting.
>
> The thoughts about free text analysis were interesting though ...
Sidenote: analysis of free-form questions and of 'other, please specify'
responses was done with the help of program anyway. But it only did
counting, and you had to categorize by hand.
>
> On 4 July 2010 13:14, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 July 2010, David Bainbridge wrote:
>>
>>> Have you considered the question: 'How long have you been using Git?'.
>>> This combined the expertise level might yield some useful information,
>>> and could provide some weighting for the 'Getting started' questions
>>> too. There are some problems with the question in that it could be,
>>> say, 2 years intermittent use, or 2 years continuous use, and these
>>> are different, of course.
>>
>> Well, such question was replaced by the question about one's own
>> proficiency in Git in 2009 survey (IIRC).
>>
>>>> === 06. Rate your own proficiency with Git: ===
>>>> (single choice)
>>>>
>>>> * 1. novice
>>>> * 2. casual, needs advice
>>>> * 3. everyday use
>>>> * 4. can offer advice
>>>> * 5. know it very well
>>
>> The problem with question "How long have you been using Git?" (beside
>> what you have mentioned) is that it is hard to answer correctly / in
>> detail for longer times.
>>
>> Perhaps something like this:
>>
>> === xx. How long have you been using Git? ===
>> (single choice, with other)
>>
>> * less than week
>> * between a week and a month
>> * a few months
>> * a few years
>> * duration (please give units)
* I don't remember
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> I think that the granularity is about right. I think we could imagine
> where we would expect people to be proficiency-wise with those
> periods. Not sure about the last option ... You have everything from
> days, to weeks to months to years in the main options. What did you
> have in mind?
Scratch last option. What I had in mind that when people more or less
remember when the started using git, they could write e.g. "7 weeks",
or "5 months". Let's leave only pre-defined answers... but leave
question about proficiency in git too; this would help distinguish
between continuous use and sporadic (intermittent) use.
>>> The demographic information is useful if you want to understand
>>> whether Git is (for example) considered less usable in countries where
>>> English is not the native language. But then if you want to know the
>>> native language of the user rather than where they live then perhaps
>>> this should be asked? (I was born in the UK, but now live in Sweden
>>> ... so I am perhaps more conscious of this!). Where you are born does
>>> not necessarily identify your native language either.
>>
>> The problem with this question in the past was twofold: first, people
>> sometimes mistok it for question about _programming languages. Second
>> should this question be about primary language / languages, or about
>> language ones prefer the computer to communicate with?
>
> Obviously you have been though this loop before! But perhaps if you
> are using drop-down lists then this makes it obvious what is required.
> I guess both the programming language, and the preferred interaction
> language could be relevant.
>
> We may want to know whether Git is more 'acceptable' to the Java
> community or the C/C++ community for example, or whether certain
> suggestions for improvement are coming from a community around a
> particular language.
I can bring back the question about programming languages, with or
without 'other, please specify' free-form answer. I wonder about
wording: should it be (as before) about being "proficient" in the
programming language, or about simply "using with git"? Should it
perhaps be matrix form, asking about proficiency in given programming
language?
> Then with the human languages this could drive the localization of the
> commands, as well as the documentation localization. Interesting ...
Yes, it would be interesting, as the localization is back (!) thanks
to Ævar's work on adding i18n infrastructure to git (C, shell, Perl)
for localizing command messages.
If this question is back, then perhaps also question about what
one would like to have localized: GUI tools (gitk, git-gui - they
are localized, but perhaps not in one's preferred language), command
messages (porcelain), documentation i.e. manpages (here for us is
a question about technology to use), commit message templates
(e.g. "Merge foo into bar", "Revert nnn"). Have I missed something?
By the way, the important question is also which questions to remove,
not only what questions to add.
>>> Do you want to separate work usage and 'non-work' usage at all? The
>>> two experiences may be completely different. If I am working at home I
>>> can use what ever I want, and work how I want. This will probably not
>>> be the case in a corporate environment, so I would report one set of
>>> results for 'work' and another for 'non-work'. This could generate two
>>> survey returns for a single user. Is this intended?
>>
>> Hmmmm... food for though. It can be mentioned somewhere close to
>> beginning that one can fill this survey more than once (from different
>> computers if using default version with cookies) for different roles
>> one plays. Perhaps with checkbox "additional role" (aka. "I have already
>> filed this survey" ;-))...
>
> Thats sounds reasonable ... I think it is probably useful to capture a
> user-role response. The priorities of users and their needs may be
> completely different in a work situation.
Well, the version with specifying roles might be overly complicated.
I think it would be enough to have checkbox saying
I have already filled this survey in different role
to catch number of responders as opposed to number of responses.
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-03 19:58 [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend) Jakub Narebski
2010-07-04 0:21 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2010-07-04 9:07 ` David Bainbridge
@ 2010-07-04 22:43 ` Scott Chacon
2010-07-04 23:48 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-07 12:28 ` Yann Dirson
` (2 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Scott Chacon @ 2010-07-04 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
Hey,
2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
> === 09. On which operating system(s) do you use Git? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
>
> + Linux (includes MeeGo and Moblin)
> + MacOS X (Darwin)
> + MS Windows/msysGit (MINGW)
> + MS Windows/Cygwin
> + FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc.
> + other Unix
>
> + iPhone OS
> + Android
> + WebOS
>
> + Other, please specify
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> The iPhone OS, Androind and WebOS answers are new this year.
> OpenSolaris died, so I removed it. I wonder if it is worth it to
> differentiate between MS Windows/msysGit and MS Windows/Cygwin, or if
> we should just have one, single 'MS Windows' choice.
Are any of these new options relevant? I'm pretty sure there is no
working Git implementation in iOS, Android or WebOS. Why were they
added? There are some libraries for iOS, but I'm pretty involved in
almost all of them and as far as I know you can't really do anything
interesting with them yet. And I'm pretty sure Android and certainly
WebOS don't have working implementations yet either.
Scott
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-04 22:43 ` Scott Chacon
@ 2010-07-04 23:48 ` Jakub Narebski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-04 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Scott Chacon; +Cc: git
On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Scott Chacon wrote:
> 2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
> > === 09. On which operating system(s) do you use Git? ===
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> >
> > + Linux (includes MeeGo and Moblin)
> > + MacOS X (Darwin)
> > + MS Windows/msysGit (MINGW)
> > + MS Windows/Cygwin
> > + FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc.
> > + other Unix
> >
> > + iPhone OS
> > + Android
> > + WebOS
> >
> > + Other, please specify
> >
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > The iPhone OS, Androind and WebOS answers are new this year.
> > OpenSolaris died, so I removed it. I wonder if it is worth it to
> > differentiate between MS Windows/msysGit and MS Windows/Cygwin, or if
> > we should just have one, single 'MS Windows' choice.
>
> Are any of these new options relevant? I'm pretty sure there is no
> working Git implementation in iOS, Android or WebOS. Why were they
> added? There are some libraries for iOS, but I'm pretty involved in
> almost all of them and as far as I know you can't really do anything
> interesting with them yet. And I'm pretty sure Android and certainly
> WebOS don't have working implementations yet either.
I have added those because (perhaps by mistake or misunderstanding)
there were a few such answers in 'other' operating system answer.
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-03 19:58 [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend) Jakub Narebski
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-07-04 22:43 ` Scott Chacon
@ 2010-07-07 12:28 ` Yann Dirson
2010-07-07 21:37 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-10 11:31 ` Felipe Contreras
2010-08-09 21:59 ` Felipe Contreras
5 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Yann Dirson @ 2010-07-07 12:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
Jakub Narebski <jnareb <at> gmail.com> writes:
> === 07. I use Git for (check all that apply): ===
[...]
> + work projects
> + unpaid projects
"Unpaid" could be further split between personnal use, cooperating in
public projects (includes "OSS development" below), working for NGO's
and the like.
> === 08. How do/did you obtain Git (install and/or upgrade)? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
[...]
> Description:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Explanation: "binary package" covers pre-compiled binary (e.g. from
> rpm or deb binary packages); "source package" covers things like
> deb-src and SRPMS / *.src.rpm; "source script" is meant to cover
> installation in source-based distributions, like 'emerge' in Gentoo.
Do we care about particular binary packages, like distro-provided,
distro backports, RPMs for kernel.org and similar "official as in
listed on git-scm.org" packages, 3rd-party packages (maybe with
"please specify").
> === 09. On which operating system(s) do you use Git? ===
[...]
> OpenSolaris died, so I removed it.
It does not seem to have died, only "free-beer solaris" seems to -
opensolaris.org still shows activity. And even so, people may still
have been using machines installed with it.
> === 11. What Git interfaces and frontends do you use? ===
[...]
> The problem with split part is that people can have troubls with
> distinguising between interfaces, implementations, frontends and tools
> (although "I don't know ..." answer should, I think, help here). The
> problem with having it everything together is that the list of
> possible answers gets long and a bit unwieldy.
"interface" is confusing, as shown by the need for "I only use
(graphical) tools". Use "command-line interfaces and frontends"
instead ?
> === 12. What kind of Git tools do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
[...]
> + graphical blame or pickaxe tool
Mention gitk as example here ?
> === 16. Which of the following features do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
[...]
> + one-way interaction with other SCMs (from SCM to git)
One-way from git to other SCM ? I'm sure we care if many people do that :)
> === 17. Which of the following features would you like to see implemented in
git? ===
+ sophisticated diffcore stages (eg. directory rename, indent detection,
content move)
> What features should be mentioned besides those above? What criteria
> should we have for including features in this list?
Not sure if any reasonable idea that appeared on the list should be
left out. Answers would provide feedback for features not necessarily
interesting to the average git@vger reader, but still appealing to our
users.
> === 22. How do you compare the current version with the version from one year
ago? ===
[...]
> This question was mainly excuse for providing list of main changes
> from the year ago. I think that this question should be removed, as
> it doesn't bring any important information.
It still says whether the work done on dev side is seen as valuable by
end users.
> === 23. How useful have you found the following forms of Git documentation? ===
[...]
> + on-line help
Spell as "online" ? At least I had difficulties to parse it :)
> === 28. How did you hear about this Git User's Survey? ===
> (single choice, with other)
+ relaying by co-workers bridging the team to the community
HTH,
--
Yann
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-07 12:28 ` Yann Dirson
@ 2010-07-07 21:37 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-08 7:24 ` Yann Dirson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-07 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Yann Dirson; +Cc: git
Yann Dirson <ydirson@free.fr> writes:
> Jakub Narebski <jnareb <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
> > === 07. I use Git for (check all that apply): ===
> [...]
> > + work projects
> > + unpaid projects
>
> "Unpaid" could be further split between personnal use, cooperating in
> public projects (includes "OSS development" below), working for NGO's
> and the like.
"Unpaid projects" simply means here not work (related). I am not sure
if adding other options is worth it; I'd rather not have too many
possibile answers for a question.
> > === 08. How do/did you obtain Git (install and/or upgrade)? ===
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> [...]
> > Description:
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Explanation: "binary package" covers pre-compiled binary (e.g. from
> > rpm or deb binary packages); "source package" covers things like
> > deb-src and SRPMS / *.src.rpm; "source script" is meant to cover
> > installation in source-based distributions, like 'emerge' in Gentoo.
>
> Do we care about particular binary packages, like distro-provided,
> distro backports, RPMs for kernel.org and similar "official as in
> listed on git-scm.org" packages, 3rd-party packages (maybe with
> "please specify").
No, I don't think we do worry about this.
> > === 09. On which operating system(s) do you use Git? ===
> [...]
> > OpenSolaris died, so I removed it.
>
> It does not seem to have died, only "free-beer solaris" seems to -
> opensolaris.org still shows activity. And even so, people may still
> have been using machines installed with it.
Nevertheless it's install base, as shown by previous surveys, is IMVHO
too small for it to have it as a separate option.
> > === 11. What Git interfaces and frontends do you use? ===
> [...]
> > The problem with split part is that people can have troubls with
> > distinguising between interfaces, implementations, frontends and tools
> > (although "I don't know ..." answer should, I think, help here). The
> > problem with having it everything together is that the list of
> > possible answers gets long and a bit unwieldy.
>
> "interface" is confusing, as shown by the need for "I only use
> (graphical) tools". Use "command-line interfaces and frontends"
> instead ?
That's a good idea. Thanks.
> > === 12. What kind of Git tools do you use? ===
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> [...]
> > + graphical blame or pickaxe tool
>
> Mention gitk as example here ?
You meant here "git gui blame", didn't you?
> > === 16. Which of the following features do you use? ===
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> [...]
> > + one-way interaction with other SCMs (from SCM to git)
>
> One-way from git to other SCM ? I'm sure we care if many people do that :)
One way from SCM to git.
> > === 17. Which of the following features would you like to see implemented in
> git? ===
>
> + sophisticated diffcore stages (eg. directory rename, indent detection,
> content move)
Thanks.
BTW. I think wholesame directory rename detection is one of proposed
features already.
> > What features should be mentioned besides those above? What criteria
> > should we have for including features in this list?
>
> Not sure if any reasonable idea that appeared on the list should be
> left out. Answers would provide feedback for features not necessarily
> interesting to the average git@vger reader, but still appealing to our
> users.
I don't think ideas about _internal_ changes need to be here. Also,
I do not remember _every_ feature proposel that appeared on the list...
> > === 22. How do you compare the current version with the version from one year
> ago? ===
> [...]
> > This question was mainly excuse for providing list of main changes
> > from the year ago. I think that this question should be removed, as
> > it doesn't bring any important information.
>
> It still says whether the work done on dev side is seen as valuable by
> end users.
Ego stroking ;-))))
I'm not sure if it is worth having this question. If there were any
big controversial changes, perhaps...
> > === 23. How useful have you found the following forms of Git documentation? ===
> [...]
> > + on-line help
>
> Spell as "online" ? At least I had difficulties to parse it :)
O.K.
> > === 28. How did you hear about this Git User's Survey? ===
> > (single choice, with other)
>
> + relaying by co-workers bridging the team to the community
Hmmm... good catch.
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
ShadeHawk on #git
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-07 21:37 ` Jakub Narebski
@ 2010-07-08 7:24 ` Yann Dirson
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Yann Dirson @ 2010-07-08 7:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
Jakub Narebski <jnareb <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > > === 12. What kind of Git tools do you use? ===
> > > (multiple choice, with other)
> > [...]
> > > + graphical blame or pickaxe tool
> >
> > Mention gitk as example here ?
>
> You meant here "git gui blame", didn't you?
Well, yes - that comes from the fact I only use the it from gitk :)
> > > === 16. Which of the following features do you use? ===
> > > (multiple choice, with other)
> > [...]
> > > + one-way interaction with other SCMs (from SCM to git)
> >
> > One-way from git to other SCM ? I'm sure we care if many people do that :)
>
> One way from SCM to git.
No, I was really suggesting to ask whether people work on a remote git repo
using another VCS, much like we do access other VCS' repo using git. Not sure
whether this survey would reach those users, though.
> > + sophisticated diffcore stages (eg. directory rename, indent detection,
> > content move)
>
> Thanks.
>
> BTW. I think wholesame directory rename detection is one of proposed
> features already.
d'oh - how could I miss it :)
> > > What features should be mentioned besides those above? What criteria
> > > should we have for including features in this list?
> >
> > Not sure if any reasonable idea that appeared on the list should be
> > left out. Answers would provide feedback for features not necessarily
> > interesting to the average git <at> vger reader, but still appealing to our
> > users.
>
> I don't think ideas about _internal_ changes need to be here. Also,
> I do not remember _every_ feature proposel that appeared on the list...
At some point[1] we had a volunteer secretary willing to take note of bugs. I
just went to see whether proposed features were tracked as well, but it appears
that initiative has stalled already :(
http://marc.info/?l=git&m=126299754631066&w=4
Best regards,
--
Yann
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-03 19:58 [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend) Jakub Narebski
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2010-07-07 12:28 ` Yann Dirson
@ 2010-07-10 11:31 ` Felipe Contreras
2010-07-10 19:58 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-08-09 21:59 ` Felipe Contreras
5 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Felipe Contreras @ 2010-07-10 11:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
> I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
> there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
Yes, I think there should definitely be one! IMO one month is enough.
> With more that 3000 responses in 2008 and 2009 survey, analysing
> free-form data was hard. That is why in this proposal there is only
> single one free-form response (about missing features).
That's a good idea.
> == About you ==
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This section gives us a bit of demographical information about survey
> responders. Is it useful? Should we leave it in survey, or remove it?
>
> Should we for example include 'gender' as one of questions? Perl Survey
> 2010 did.
I don't see the point of 'gender'. What does that tells us?
> === 02. How old are you (in years)? ===
> (free-form single line)
>
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Instead of unconstrained free-form response it might be better to have
> single choice (or menu) of age ranges. What do you think? Of course with
> ranges there is question what ranges to use (how to quantize age); goo
> solution would be to chose ranges corresponding somewhat to the levels of
> education.
What's wrong with a free-form? I think that's easy and it works.
> === 10. What do you use to edit contents under version control with Git? ===
> What kind of editor, IDE or RAD you use working with Git?
> (multiple choice, with other)
[...]
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Is this question useful, or should it be removed from survey?
I think this is useful to correlate communities.
> === 15. How do you publish/propagate your changes? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
[...]
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Should it stay, or should it be removed? I guess it can be
> interesting for git hosting sites... Should we have separate answrs
> for different kinds of push (ssh, "dumb" HTTP(S) with WebDAV, "smart"
> HTTP - if it is possible, git:// protocol with push enabled)?
I think this question should stay. It would also help projects to
decide how to accept patches based on what most git users are familiar
with.
> === 16. Which of the following features do you use? ===
> (multiple choice, with other)
[...]
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> The problem is come up not with exhaustive list of features: there are
> too many of them to list. The problem is coming up with list of
> important and used enough often features.
>
> So: what features should be included in this list? What features
> should be removed from above list of answers?
I propose to add:
+ git stage/cache/index
We really are not sure how many people are actually aware of it, are we?
And IMO new features should go on the top.
> === 19. Overall, how happy are you with Git? ===
> (single choice)
[...]
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> I'm not sure if this question is at all useful.
I think it is. Otherwise how do we know that people are happy with it?
> === 20. In your opinion, which areas in Git need improvement? ===
> Please state your preference.
> (matrix)
[...]
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> Are there any general areas that are missing from this list?
> What are they?
How about:
+ communication channels
I think if users have trouble reporting issues, asking questions, we
should catch that.
> === 22. How do you compare the current version with the version from one year ago? ===
> (single choice)
[...]
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This question was mainly excuse for providing list of main changes
> from the year ago. I think that this question should be removed, as
> it doesn't bring any important information.
Yeah, and I think many people don't even notice the changes as they
come, but learn slowly features that have been there since a long time
ago.
> === 28. How did you hear about this Git User's Survey? ===
> (single choice, with other)
[...]
> NOTES:
> ^^^^^^
> This list would of course be updated to reflect the list of (planned)
> announcement channels.
> Should I try to post announcement on mailing list for projects that
> use git? There are entirely too many such projects nowadays, and such
> announcement can be considered spamming by some...
I still maintain that we need an official blog (not planet). Last year
the most popular way of finding about the survey was through blog
posts, but you argued that it was because you didn't spam mailing
lists.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/124609
I still think it's unnecessary to spam mailing lists, but if it helps
us reach considerably more people, we should do it.
Hopefully after this year's result we will know for sure ;)
Thanks for doing this. Cheers.
--
Felipe Contreras
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-10 11:31 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2010-07-10 19:58 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-11 9:57 ` Felipe Contreras
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-10 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Felipe Contreras; +Cc: git
On Sat, 10 July 2010, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> 2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
> > I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
> > there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
>
> Yes, I think there should definitely be one! IMO one month is enough.
By the way, I think it is important that Git User's Survey 2010 lasts
past the holidays, i.e. into September or even October, even at the
cost of lasting two months, and not one month.
What do you think about this?
> > == About you ==
> >
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > This section gives us a bit of demographical information about survey
> > responders. Is it useful? Should we leave it in survey, or remove it?
> >
> > Should we for example include 'gender' as one of questions? Perl Survey
> > 2010 did.
>
> I don't see the point of 'gender'. What does that tells us?
Well, one can say that 'age' doesn't tell us much either.
Sidenote: country of residence, besides giving a bit of demographical
information, it also gives us information about where we could organize
mini Git Together (beside the large one at Google, after GSoC Mentors
Summit). It would be even better if Survs.com provided Google Map
gadget to mark point of residence... :-)
> > === 02. How old are you (in years)? ===
> > (free-form single line)
> >
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > Instead of unconstrained free-form response it might be better to have
> > single choice (or menu) of age ranges. What do you think? Of course with
> > ranges there is question what ranges to use (how to quantize age); goo
> > solution would be to chose ranges corresponding somewhat to the levels of
> > education.
>
> What's wrong with a free-form? I think that's easy and it works.
O.K., I agree that it is not that hard to analyze free-form in this case.
> > === 10. What do you use to edit contents under version control with Git? ===
> > What kind of editor, IDE or RAD you use working with Git?
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> [...]
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > Is this question useful, or should it be removed from survey?
>
> I think this is useful to correlate communities.
Hmmm...
> > === 15. How do you publish/propagate your changes? ===
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> [...]
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > Should it stay, or should it be removed? I guess it can be
> > interesting for git hosting sites... Should we have separate answrs
> > for different kinds of push (ssh, "dumb" HTTP(S) with WebDAV, "smart"
> > HTTP - if it is possible, git:// protocol with push enabled)?
>
> I think this question should stay. It would also help projects to
> decide how to accept patches based on what most git users are familiar
> with.
All right.
> > === 16. Which of the following features do you use? ===
> > (multiple choice, with other)
> [...]
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > The problem is come up not with exhaustive list of features: there are
> > too many of them to list. The problem is coming up with list of
> > important and used enough often features.
> >
> > So: what features should be included in this list? What features
> > should be removed from above list of answers?
>
> I propose to add:
> + git stage/cache/index
>
> We really are not sure how many people are actually aware of it, are we?
>
> And IMO new features should go on the top.
Good idea!
This and the next question about _proposed_ features are IMHO hardest
to create well.
> > === 19. Overall, how happy are you with Git? ===
> > (single choice)
> [...]
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > I'm not sure if this question is at all useful.
>
> I think it is. Otherwise how do we know that people are happy with it?
Well, I think there is rather heavy bias that if people are unhappy
with Git, they wouldn't be using it (well, unless they have to), and
they wouldn't be responding to this Git User's Survey (because they
didn't found it, for example).
> > === 20. In your opinion, which areas in Git need improvement? ===
> > Please state your preference.
> > (matrix)
> [...]
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > Are there any general areas that are missing from this list?
> > What are they?
>
> How about:
> + communication channels
>
> I think if users have trouble reporting issues, asking questions, we
> should catch that.
O.K.
+ communication channels (incl. requesting help)
> > === 22. How do you compare the current version with the version from one year ago? ===
> > (single choice)
> [...]
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > This question was mainly excuse for providing list of main changes
> > from the year ago. I think that this question should be removed, as
> > it doesn't bring any important information.
>
> Yeah, and I think many people don't even notice the changes as they
> come, but learn slowly features that have been there since a long time
> ago.
O.K. I think that Git matured enough that improvements are not of the
kind that make usable out of unusable (or vice versa).
O'd remove this question, then.
> > === 28. How did you hear about this Git User's Survey? ===
> > (single choice, with other)
> [...]
> > NOTES:
> > ^^^^^^
> > This list would of course be updated to reflect the list of (planned)
> > announcement channels.
>
> > Should I try to post announcement on mailing list for projects that
> > use git? There are entirely too many such projects nowadays, and such
> > announcement can be considered spamming by some...
>
> I still maintain that we need an official blog (not planet). Last year
> the most popular way of finding about the survey was through blog
> posts, but you argued that it was because you didn't spam mailing
> lists.
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/124609
>
> I still think it's unnecessary to spam mailing lists, but if it helps
> us reach considerably more people, we should do it.
>
> Hopefully after this year's result we will know for sure ;)
Well, there is Junio's blog, there is GitHub blog, and there is
http://gitlog.wordpress.com/
Well, let's spam mailing lists in the name od "science"! ;-))))
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-10 19:58 ` Jakub Narebski
@ 2010-07-11 9:57 ` Felipe Contreras
2010-07-11 17:42 ` Jakub Narebski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Felipe Contreras @ 2010-07-11 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 July 2010, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> 2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
>
>> > I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
>> > there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
>>
>> Yes, I think there should definitely be one! IMO one month is enough.
>
> By the way, I think it is important that Git User's Survey 2010 lasts
> past the holidays, i.e. into September or even October, even at the
> cost of lasting two months, and not one month.
>
> What do you think about this?
My feeling is that the longer it is, the easier it's for people to
postpone it, and then forget about it.
But I don't have a strong opinion either way.
>> > == About you ==
>> >
>> > NOTES:
>> > ^^^^^^
>> > This section gives us a bit of demographical information about survey
>> > responders. Is it useful? Should we leave it in survey, or remove it?
>> >
>> > Should we for example include 'gender' as one of questions? Perl Survey
>> > 2010 did.
>>
>> I don't see the point of 'gender'. What does that tells us?
>
> Well, one can say that 'age' doesn't tell us much either.
I disagree. I think younger people, specially the ones who have not
been tainted by CVS, might find git easier to learn. Without this
question it's not possible to find that correlation.
>> > === 10. What do you use to edit contents under version control with Git? ===
>> > What kind of editor, IDE or RAD you use working with Git?
>> > (multiple choice, with other)
>> [...]
>> > NOTES:
>> > ^^^^^^
>> > Is this question useful, or should it be removed from survey?
>>
>> I think this is useful to correlate communities.
>
> Hmmm...
Sorry, I thought the answers would be the actual application used:
Vim, Eclipse, MS Visual Studio, etc. If not, then I don't see the
point.
At least I remember finding out that most people use vim in some
previous survey, and I found that interesting.
>> > === 19. Overall, how happy are you with Git? ===
>> > (single choice)
>> [...]
>> > NOTES:
>> > ^^^^^^
>> > I'm not sure if this question is at all useful.
>>
>> I think it is. Otherwise how do we know that people are happy with it?
>
> Well, I think there is rather heavy bias that if people are unhappy
> with Git, they wouldn't be using it (well, unless they have to), and
> they wouldn't be responding to this Git User's Survey (because they
> didn't found it, for example).
There's people that would rather be using something else for various
reasons, but need to use git. Also, there's people that think that git
is the best option, but not particularly ecstatic with it.
--
Felipe Contreras
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-11 9:57 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2010-07-11 17:42 ` Jakub Narebski
2010-07-12 10:14 ` David Bainbridge
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-07-11 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Felipe Contreras; +Cc: git
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 July 2010, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>>> 2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>> I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
>>>> there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
>>>
>>> Yes, I think there should definitely be one! IMO one month is enough.
>>
>> By the way, I think it is important that Git User's Survey 2010 lasts
>> past the holidays, i.e. into September or even October, even at the
>> cost of lasting two months, and not one month.
>>
>> What do you think about this?
>
> My feeling is that the longer it is, the easier it's for people to
> postpone it, and then forget about it.
Hmmm... I haven't thought about this issue. I certainly don't plan
for Git User's Survey 2010 to last longer than 2 months. We can
always send / post reminders that the survey is coming to be closed.
The problem with duration of last year survey was that some announcements
got delayed because of holidays.
> But I don't have a strong opinion either way.
I think that 15 August to 15 September, or to 15 October would be
good time (this is currently preliminary only).
>>>> == About you ==
>>>>
>>>> NOTES:
>>>> ^^^^^^
>>>> This section gives us a bit of demographical information about survey
>>>> responders. Is it useful? Should we leave it in survey, or remove it?
>>>>
>>>> Should we for example include 'gender' as one of questions? Perl Survey
>>>> 2010 did.
>>>
>>> I don't see the point of 'gender'. What does that tells us?
>>
>> Well, one can say that 'age' doesn't tell us much either.
>
> I disagree. I think younger people, specially the ones who have not
> been tainted by CVS, might find git easier to learn. Without this
> question it's not possible to find that correlation.
O.K., you convinced me: I'll leave age, but not add gender.
>>>> === 10. What do you use to edit contents under version control with Git? ===
>>>> What kind of editor, IDE or RAD you use working with Git?
>>>> (multiple choice, with other)
>>> [...]
>>>> NOTES:
>>>> ^^^^^^
>>>> Is this question useful, or should it be removed from survey?
>>>
>>> I think this is useful to correlate communities.
>>
>> Hmmm...
>
> Sorry, I thought the answers would be the actual application used:
> Vim, Eclipse, MS Visual Studio, etc. If not, then I don't see the
> point.
>
> At least I remember finding out that most people use vim in some
> previous survey, and I found that interesting.
The problem is with not going overboard with number of possible answers,
but we can always take results of previous survey as hint (though
I don't remember if free-form questions are analyzed yet)/
>>>> === 19. Overall, how happy are you with Git? ===
>>>> (single choice)
>>> [...]
>>>> NOTES:
>>>> ^^^^^^
>>>> I'm not sure if this question is at all useful.
>>>
>>> I think it is. Otherwise how do we know that people are happy with it?
>>
>> Well, I think there is rather heavy bias that if people are unhappy
>> with Git, they wouldn't be using it (well, unless they have to), and
>> they wouldn't be responding to this Git User's Survey (because they
>> didn't found it, for example).
>
> There's people that would rather be using something else for various
> reasons, but need to use git. Also, there's people that think that git
> is the best option, but not particularly ecstatic with it.
All right, let's keep it.
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-11 17:42 ` Jakub Narebski
@ 2010-07-12 10:14 ` David Bainbridge
2010-07-12 10:19 ` Felipe Contreras
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: David Bainbridge @ 2010-07-12 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
Hi Jakub,
Sorry about disappearing ... I had a product release to deal with :-)
Some interesting things have come up while I have been away.However,
I have lost track of what the survey looks like now! Can we see the
current state somewhere?
On the question of spamming here is another aspect; if I send mail to
everyone on a public list then it is spam. If I send a message to
everyone at work asking them to respond then I am just doing my job.
The problem is how to address the unpaid volunteer sector of the open
source community without being perceived as spamming.
Regards
David Bainbridge
Sweden
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-12 10:14 ` David Bainbridge
@ 2010-07-12 10:19 ` Felipe Contreras
2010-07-12 10:22 ` David Bainbridge
0 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Felipe Contreras @ 2010-07-12 10:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Bainbridge; +Cc: Jakub Narebski, git
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:14 PM, David Bainbridge
<david.bainbridge@gmail.com> wrote:
> On the question of spamming here is another aspect; if I send mail to
> everyone on a public list then it is spam. If I send a message to
> everyone at work asking them to respond then I am just doing my job.
> The problem is how to address the unpaid volunteer sector of the open
> source community without being perceived as spamming.
Note that perhaps spamming is not the right word.
I think the plan is to send the mail only to the communities that use
git, so chances are that many people would be interested on filling
out the survey. It has been done in previous years, and I think nobody
complained.
--
Felipe Contreras
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-12 10:19 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2010-07-12 10:22 ` David Bainbridge
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: David Bainbridge @ 2010-07-12 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Felipe Contreras; +Cc: Jakub Narebski, git
OK, thanks for explaining Felipe,
Using development communities in this way makes sense.
Thanks
David
On 12 July 2010 12:19, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:14 PM, David Bainbridge
> <david.bainbridge@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On the question of spamming here is another aspect; if I send mail to
>> everyone on a public list then it is spam. If I send a message to
>> everyone at work asking them to respond then I am just doing my job.
>> The problem is how to address the unpaid volunteer sector of the open
>> source community without being perceived as spamming.
>
> Note that perhaps spamming is not the right word.
>
> I think the plan is to send the mail only to the communities that use
> git, so chances are that many people would be interested on filling
> out the survey. It has been done in previous years, and I think nobody
> complained.
>
> --
> Felipe Contreras
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-07-03 19:58 [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend) Jakub Narebski
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2010-07-10 11:31 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2010-08-09 21:59 ` Felipe Contreras
2010-08-10 22:16 ` Jakub Narebski
5 siblings, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Felipe Contreras @ 2010-08-09 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jakub Narebski; +Cc: git
2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
> I'm sorry for broken (badly wrapped) previous version...
> ----
>
> I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
> there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
You might ind this useful:
Top 10 Sites for Creating Surveys
http://www.techlearning.com/article/31924
--
Felipe Contreras
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: [RFC] Git User's Survey 2010 (resend)
2010-08-09 21:59 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2010-08-10 22:16 ` Jakub Narebski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Jakub Narebski @ 2010-08-10 22:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Felipe Contreras; +Cc: git
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> 2010/7/3 Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com>:
> >
> > I guess it is time for annual (so far) Git User's Survey. Should
> > there be one? When should it start, and how long should it last?
>
> You might ind this useful:
> Top 10 Sites for Creating Surveys
> http://www.techlearning.com/article/31924
Thanks for the link, but I think that at least for "Git User's Survey
2010" I would stay with current Survs.com, as I have already entered
survey there. Thanks to Survs.com admins we have Premium plan since
Survs.com got out of beta, which would last to Sep 22, 2011, so it is
good for at least this year survey.
One short note about presented sites: Git User's Surveys needs more
than 1000 replies that is the limit for free plan for some of those
sites, and IMHO a good survey needs more than 10 questions. Also
I very much prefer to have it possible to get the raw data out of
survey site (as it was done with all Git User's Surveys, except the
very first one).
--
Jakub Narebski
Poland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread