Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Julian Calaby]

Hi all,

Once again, someone is trying to build a working driver for the Marvel
88w8335 chipset, and is once again hampered by a lack of
re-distributable or official firmware. (See:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=128923265210125&w=2 )

As such, on Denis's behalf, I'm asking if anyone knows of anyone at
Marvel that they can poke in an attempt to get a re-distributable
firmware for this chipset released for eventual inclusion into
linux-firmware.

I believe that this chipset is pretty much obsolete (being only an
802.11g part) so I cannot see any reasonable reason not to release the
firmware, especially given that newer chipsets ("TopDog" - see the
mwl8k driver) have had re-distributable firmware released along with
open source Linux drivers for some time now.

If we cannot obtain proper firmware files, the very least Marvel could
do would be to bless the *BSD Malo driver's firmware files (obtainable
here: http://www.nazgul.ch/malo/malo-firmware-1.4.tgz - see
http://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/MALO/ for more info) with a
proper re-distributable license.

In terms of the actual chipsets in question, I'm referring to the
88w8335, 88w8338, and 88w8385 chipsets. I believe Marvel refers to
them as being part of the "Libertas" family of chipsets - however they
don't have the fancy mesh stuff that the chips the libertas driver
talks to have - and are also PCI.

A previous effort in 2008 is viewable here:
http://lwn.net/Articles/275719/ and searching for "mrv8k" reveals the
remnants of that effort which mostly happened before my involvement in
this.

A proper "official" set of firmware files would smooth one of the
bumps in getting proper support for this driver into the Linux Kernel.
(as well as helping the BSD folks with the Malo driver) Marvel has
shown that they are willing to provide some support for the open
source community with the TopDog driver, as well as the driver for the
SAS chipset. Hopefully they can continue their support with what would
be a small gesture in support of our efforts to write a driver for
this old chipset.

Thanks,

-- 

Julian Calaby

Email: julian.calaby@gmail.com
Profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/julian.calaby/
.Plan: http://sites.google.com/site/juliancalaby/

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Dan Williams]

On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 11:29 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Once again, someone is trying to build a working driver for the Marvel
> 88w8335 chipset, and is once again hampered by a lack of
> re-distributable or official firmware. (See:
> http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=128923265210125&w=2 )

I've sent a mail to a contact at Marvell, we'll see where it goes. I'm
hopeful given that Marvell has generally been pretty good with firmware
licensing in the past.  I'd have already pushed firmware from their
Extranet for the 8335, but all I have access to are Vista drivers.  I
did try to extract STA firmware from the Vista drivers about 2 years
ago, but the resulting firmware failed to work correctly with mwl8k so I
gave up on it.  Plus I'd  much rather have the duplex firmware from the
MSSII sources instead of STA-only.

Dan

> As such, on Denis's behalf, I'm asking if anyone knows of anyone at
> Marvel that they can poke in an attempt to get a re-distributable
> firmware for this chipset released for eventual inclusion into
> linux-firmware.
> 
> I believe that this chipset is pretty much obsolete (being only an
> 802.11g part) so I cannot see any reasonable reason not to release the
> firmware, especially given that newer chipsets ("TopDog" - see the
> mwl8k driver) have had re-distributable firmware released along with
> open source Linux drivers for some time now.
> 
> If we cannot obtain proper firmware files, the very least Marvel could
> do would be to bless the *BSD Malo driver's firmware files (obtainable
> here: http://www.nazgul.ch/malo/malo-firmware-1.4.tgz - see
> http://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/MALO/ for more info) with a
> proper re-distributable license.
> 
> In terms of the actual chipsets in question, I'm referring to the
> 88w8335, 88w8338, and 88w8385 chipsets. I believe Marvel refers to
> them as being part of the "Libertas" family of chipsets - however they
> don't have the fancy mesh stuff that the chips the libertas driver
> talks to have - and are also PCI.
> 
> A previous effort in 2008 is viewable here:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/275719/ and searching for "mrv8k" reveals the
> remnants of that effort which mostly happened before my involvement in
> this.
> 
> A proper "official" set of firmware files would smooth one of the
> bumps in getting proper support for this driver into the Linux Kernel.
> (as well as helping the BSD folks with the Malo driver) Marvel has
> shown that they are willing to provide some support for the open
> source community with the TopDog driver, as well as the driver for the
> SAS chipset. Hopefully they can continue their support with what would
> be a small gesture in support of our efforts to write a driver for
> this old chipset.
> 
> Thanks,
> 

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Dan Williams]

On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 11:29 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Once again, someone is trying to build a working driver for the Marvel
> 88w8335 chipset, and is once again hampered by a lack of
> re-distributable or official firmware. (See:
> http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=128923265210125&w=2 )
> 
> As such, on Denis's behalf, I'm asking if anyone knows of anyone at
> Marvel that they can poke in an attempt to get a re-distributable
> firmware for this chipset released for eventual inclusion into
> linux-firmware.
> 
> I believe that this chipset is pretty much obsolete (being only an
> 802.11g part) so I cannot see any reasonable reason not to release the
> firmware, especially given that newer chipsets ("TopDog" - see the
> mwl8k driver) have had re-distributable firmware released along with
> open source Linux drivers for some time now.
> 
> If we cannot obtain proper firmware files, the very least Marvel could
> do would be to bless the *BSD Malo driver's firmware files (obtainable
> here: http://www.nazgul.ch/malo/malo-firmware-1.4.tgz - see
> http://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/MALO/ for more info) with a
> proper re-distributable license.
> 
> In terms of the actual chipsets in question, I'm referring to the
> 88w8335, 88w8338, and 88w8385 chipsets. I believe Marvel refers to

Note that the 8385 shouldn't be included in this list, since it's a
FullMAC chip, is handled already by the 'libertas' kernel driver, and
we've already got firmware for its CF & SDIO variants in linux-firmware
along with the 8388, 8682, 8686, and 8688.

Dan

> them as being part of the "Libertas" family of chipsets - however they
> don't have the fancy mesh stuff that the chips the libertas driver
> talks to have - and are also PCI.
> 
> A previous effort in 2008 is viewable here:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/275719/ and searching for "mrv8k" reveals the
> remnants of that effort which mostly happened before my involvement in
> this.
> 
> A proper "official" set of firmware files would smooth one of the
> bumps in getting proper support for this driver into the Linux Kernel.
> (as well as helping the BSD folks with the Malo driver) Marvel has
> shown that they are willing to provide some support for the open
> source community with the TopDog driver, as well as the driver for the
> SAS chipset. Hopefully they can continue their support with what would
> be a small gesture in support of our efforts to write a driver for
> this old chipset.
> 
> Thanks,
> 

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Julian Calaby]

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 14:31, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 11:29 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
>> If we cannot obtain proper firmware files, the very least Marvel could
>> do would be to bless the *BSD Malo driver's firmware files (obtainable
>> here: http://www.nazgul.ch/malo/malo-firmware-1.4.tgz - see
>> http://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/MALO/ for more info) with a
>> proper re-distributable license.
>>
>> In terms of the actual chipsets in question, I'm referring to the
>> 88w8335, 88w8338, and 88w8385 chipsets. I believe Marvel refers to
>
> Note that the 8385 shouldn't be included in this list, since it's a
> FullMAC chip, is handled already by the 'libertas' kernel driver, and
> we've already got firmware for its CF & SDIO variants in linux-firmware
> along with the 8388, 8682, 8686, and 8688.

That'll teach me to not do all the research on this =)

I pulled that number from the Malo firmware archive linked above.
(Malo claims to only work with 8335s, but yeah) I'm guessing that if
that firmware file is used, it'd be for a PCI variant of the 8385
chipset (given that such a thing exists) and that isn't supported by
the "libertas" driver.

Either way, having the firmware for the 833x chipsets would be more
than enough =)

And thanks for reaching out to your contact. Hopefully we'll get
something useful out of this.

Thanks,

-- 
Julian Calaby

Email: julian.calaby@gmail.com
Profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/julian.calaby/
.Plan: http://sites.google.com/site/juliancalaby/

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Dan Williams]

On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 14:55 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 14:31, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 11:29 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> >> If we cannot obtain proper firmware files, the very least Marvel could
> >> do would be to bless the *BSD Malo driver's firmware files (obtainable
> >> here: http://www.nazgul.ch/malo/malo-firmware-1.4.tgz - see
> >> http://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/MALO/ for more info) with a
> >> proper re-distributable license.
> >>
> >> In terms of the actual chipsets in question, I'm referring to the
> >> 88w8335, 88w8338, and 88w8385 chipsets. I believe Marvel refers to
> >
> > Note that the 8385 shouldn't be included in this list, since it's a
> > FullMAC chip, is handled already by the 'libertas' kernel driver, and
> > we've already got firmware for its CF & SDIO variants in linux-firmware
> > along with the 8388, 8682, 8686, and 8688.
> 
> That'll teach me to not do all the research on this =)
> 
> I pulled that number from the Malo firmware archive linked above.
> (Malo claims to only work with 8335s, but yeah) I'm guessing that if
> that firmware file is used, it'd be for a PCI variant of the 8385
> chipset (given that such a thing exists) and that isn't supported by
> the "libertas" driver.

Malo supports the PCMCIA/CF variant of the 8385; not a PCI variant
AFAICT.  I know of no PCI variant for the 8385, just CF, SDIO, and GSPI.
But I find it curious that malo supports 8335+8385, given that the
firmware interface of the 8385 and the 8335 are so different.  Unless
they have special firmware, the 8385 is a fullmac device, while the 8335
is a softmac device.  Enough differences exist that I'd expect them to
be driven by separate drivers, otherwise the code would be quite ugly.
Which is why we didn't try to shoehorn the 8335 or TopDog stuff into
libertas.

Dan

> Either way, having the firmware for the 833x chipsets would be more
> than enough =)
> 
> And thanks for reaching out to your contact. Hopefully we'll get
> something useful out of this.
> 
> Thanks,
> 

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Julian Calaby]

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:13, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 14:55 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 14:31, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 11:29 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
>> >> If we cannot obtain proper firmware files, the very least Marvel could
>> >> do would be to bless the *BSD Malo driver's firmware files (obtainable
>> >> here: http://www.nazgul.ch/malo/malo-firmware-1.4.tgz - see
>> >> http://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/MALO/ for more info) with a
>> >> proper re-distributable license.
>> >>
>> >> In terms of the actual chipsets in question, I'm referring to the
>> >> 88w8335, 88w8338, and 88w8385 chipsets. I believe Marvel refers to
>> >
>> > Note that the 8385 shouldn't be included in this list, since it's a
>> > FullMAC chip, is handled already by the 'libertas' kernel driver, and
>> > we've already got firmware for its CF & SDIO variants in linux-firmware
>> > along with the 8388, 8682, 8686, and 8688.
>>
>> That'll teach me to not do all the research on this =)
>>
>> I pulled that number from the Malo firmware archive linked above.
>> (Malo claims to only work with 8335s, but yeah) I'm guessing that if
>> that firmware file is used, it'd be for a PCI variant of the 8385
>> chipset (given that such a thing exists) and that isn't supported by
>> the "libertas" driver.
>
> Malo supports the PCMCIA/CF variant of the 8385; not a PCI variant
> AFAICT.  I know of no PCI variant for the 8385, just CF, SDIO, and GSPI.
> But I find it curious that malo supports 8335+8385, given that the
> firmware interface of the 8385 and the 8335 are so different.  Unless
> they have special firmware, the 8385 is a fullmac device, while the 8335
> is a softmac device.  Enough differences exist that I'd expect them to
> be driven by separate drivers, otherwise the code would be quite ugly.
> Which is why we didn't try to shoehorn the 8335 or TopDog stuff into
> libertas.

You clearly know a hell of a lot more about the ins and outs of Marvel
chipsets that I do. =)

I stand corrected.

So, to amend my previous request: We're after firmware for the softmac
88w8335 chipset *only*.

Though it may be nicer if Marvell were to bless Malo's firmware
package (linked above) as this contains firmware for the PCI 88w8335,
USB 88w8338 and a file which claims to be for the PCMCIA/CF 88w8385.

Thanks,

-- 
Julian Calaby

Email: julian.calaby@gmail.com
Profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/julian.calaby/
.Plan: http://sites.google.com/site/juliancalaby/

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Dan Williams]

On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 15:48 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:13, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 14:55 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 14:31, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 11:29 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> >> >> If we cannot obtain proper firmware files, the very least Marvel could
> >> >> do would be to bless the *BSD Malo driver's firmware files (obtainable
> >> >> here: http://www.nazgul.ch/malo/malo-firmware-1.4.tgz - see
> >> >> http://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/4/MALO/ for more info) with a
> >> >> proper re-distributable license.
> >> >>
> >> >> In terms of the actual chipsets in question, I'm referring to the
> >> >> 88w8335, 88w8338, and 88w8385 chipsets. I believe Marvel refers to
> >> >
> >> > Note that the 8385 shouldn't be included in this list, since it's a
> >> > FullMAC chip, is handled already by the 'libertas' kernel driver, and
> >> > we've already got firmware for its CF & SDIO variants in linux-firmware
> >> > along with the 8388, 8682, 8686, and 8688.
> >>
> >> That'll teach me to not do all the research on this =)
> >>
> >> I pulled that number from the Malo firmware archive linked above.
> >> (Malo claims to only work with 8335s, but yeah) I'm guessing that if
> >> that firmware file is used, it'd be for a PCI variant of the 8385
> >> chipset (given that such a thing exists) and that isn't supported by
> >> the "libertas" driver.
> >
> > Malo supports the PCMCIA/CF variant of the 8385; not a PCI variant
> > AFAICT.  I know of no PCI variant for the 8385, just CF, SDIO, and GSPI.
> > But I find it curious that malo supports 8335+8385, given that the
> > firmware interface of the 8385 and the 8335 are so different.  Unless
> > they have special firmware, the 8385 is a fullmac device, while the 8335
> > is a softmac device.  Enough differences exist that I'd expect them to
> > be driven by separate drivers, otherwise the code would be quite ugly.
> > Which is why we didn't try to shoehorn the 8335 or TopDog stuff into
> > libertas.
> 
> You clearly know a hell of a lot more about the ins and outs of Marvel
> chipsets that I do. =)

Eh, *some* of the chipsets :)  Others (Lennert) know a lot more about
later versions than I do.  But I never know everything or even enough of
anything :)

> I stand corrected.
> 
> So, to amend my previous request: We're after firmware for the softmac
> 88w8335 chipset *only*.
> 
> Though it may be nicer if Marvell were to bless Malo's firmware
> package (linked above) as this contains firmware for the PCI 88w8335,
> USB 88w8338 and a file which claims to be for the PCMCIA/CF 88w8385.

Yeah, though honestly I'd rather have the duplex firmware from MSSII for
the 8335, since it can do AP mode too.  That does leave the 8338 (USB?)
of course but we can probably get clarification on that too.  As with
the 8335, I only have access to a 8335 Windows driver, but if we had a
firmware extractor tool, I believe the Marvell Extranet firmware license
covers embedded firmware from Windows .sys files too.

And I think I might actually have a usb8338 too somewhere...

Dan

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Julian Calaby]

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 16:10, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 15:48 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:13, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
>> > Malo supports the PCMCIA/CF variant of the 8385; not a PCI variant
>> > AFAICT.  I know of no PCI variant for the 8385, just CF, SDIO, and GSPI.
>> > But I find it curious that malo supports 8335+8385, given that the
>> > firmware interface of the 8385 and the 8335 are so different.  Unless
>> > they have special firmware, the 8385 is a fullmac device, while the 8335
>> > is a softmac device.  Enough differences exist that I'd expect them to
>> > be driven by separate drivers, otherwise the code would be quite ugly.
>> > Which is why we didn't try to shoehorn the 8335 or TopDog stuff into
>> > libertas.
>>
>> You clearly know a hell of a lot more about the ins and outs of Marvel
>> chipsets that I do. =)
>
> Eh, *some* of the chipsets :)  Others (Lennert) know a lot more about
> later versions than I do.  But I never know everything or even enough of
> anything :)

I know exactly how you feel. =)

>> I stand corrected.
>>
>> So, to amend my previous request: We're after firmware for the softmac
>> 88w8335 chipset *only*.
>>
>> Though it may be nicer if Marvell were to bless Malo's firmware
>> package (linked above) as this contains firmware for the PCI 88w8335,
>> USB 88w8338 and a file which claims to be for the PCMCIA/CF 88w8385.
>
> Yeah, though honestly I'd rather have the duplex firmware from MSSII for
> the 8335, since it can do AP mode too.  That does leave the 8338 (USB?)

Me too - and it'd mean that we don't have to do AP-mode firmware
loading tricks like in mw8k. But if we can't get that then some
firmware is better than none.

> of course but we can probably get clarification on that too.  As with
> the 8335, I only have access to a 8335 Windows driver, but if we had a
> firmware extractor tool, I believe the Marvell Extranet firmware license
> covers embedded firmware from Windows .sys files too.

I think I may have a simple firmware extractor at home that I pulled
from *somewhere* when I was working on this last time. We can see if
it does anything with those files. I believe I have at least two
different Windows drivers at home - IIRC, one of them is *just* the
files needed for this extractor.

> And I think I might actually have a usb8338 too somewhere...

Nice!

Out of curiosity, what brand and model number is it? I might see if I
can obtain one for testing / development or whatever. (Not that I
really have time to write a driver, but I can test at the very least)

Thanks,

-- 
Julian Calaby

Email: julian.calaby@gmail.com
Profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/julian.calaby/
.Plan: http://sites.google.com/site/juliancalaby/

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Dan Williams]

On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 16:26 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 16:10, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 15:48 +1100, Julian Calaby wrote:
> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:13, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> >> > Malo supports the PCMCIA/CF variant of the 8385; not a PCI variant
> >> > AFAICT.  I know of no PCI variant for the 8385, just CF, SDIO, and GSPI.
> >> > But I find it curious that malo supports 8335+8385, given that the
> >> > firmware interface of the 8385 and the 8335 are so different.  Unless
> >> > they have special firmware, the 8385 is a fullmac device, while the 8335
> >> > is a softmac device.  Enough differences exist that I'd expect them to
> >> > be driven by separate drivers, otherwise the code would be quite ugly.
> >> > Which is why we didn't try to shoehorn the 8335 or TopDog stuff into
> >> > libertas.
> >>
> >> You clearly know a hell of a lot more about the ins and outs of Marvel
> >> chipsets that I do. =)
> >
> > Eh, *some* of the chipsets :)  Others (Lennert) know a lot more about
> > later versions than I do.  But I never know everything or even enough of
> > anything :)
> 
> I know exactly how you feel. =)
> 
> >> I stand corrected.
> >>
> >> So, to amend my previous request: We're after firmware for the softmac
> >> 88w8335 chipset *only*.
> >>
> >> Though it may be nicer if Marvell were to bless Malo's firmware
> >> package (linked above) as this contains firmware for the PCI 88w8335,
> >> USB 88w8338 and a file which claims to be for the PCMCIA/CF 88w8385.
> >
> > Yeah, though honestly I'd rather have the duplex firmware from MSSII for
> > the 8335, since it can do AP mode too.  That does leave the 8338 (USB?)
> 
> Me too - and it'd mean that we don't have to do AP-mode firmware
> loading tricks like in mw8k. But if we can't get that then some
> firmware is better than none.
> 
> > of course but we can probably get clarification on that too.  As with
> > the 8335, I only have access to a 8335 Windows driver, but if we had a
> > firmware extractor tool, I believe the Marvell Extranet firmware license
> > covers embedded firmware from Windows .sys files too.
> 
> I think I may have a simple firmware extractor at home that I pulled
> from *somewhere* when I was working on this last time. We can see if
> it does anything with those files. I believe I have at least two
> different Windows drivers at home - IIRC, one of them is *just* the
> files needed for this extractor.

I've converted the cb35 duplex firmware to binary and uploaded it to
linux-firmware after receiving permission from Marvell to do so.  Now
lets get a driver :)

Dan

Re: Re-distributable 88w8335 Firmware?

[Julian Calaby]

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 11:13, Dan Williams <dcbw@redhat.com> wrote:
> I've converted the cb35 duplex firmware to binary and uploaded it to
> linux-firmware after receiving permission from Marvell to do so.  Now
> lets get a driver :)

Yeah!

Well Done!

Thanks for all your work on this!

-- 
Julian Calaby

Email: julian.calaby@gmail.com
Profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/julian.calaby/
.Plan: http://sites.google.com/site/juliancalaby/