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* OE TSC
@ 2011-01-31 14:10 Richard Purdie
  2011-02-01 14:51 ` Koen Kooi
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Richard Purdie @ 2011-01-31 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel; +Cc: openembedded-members

The TSC has considered its position and is saddened to agree that it has
not been doing well at helping OpenEmbedded in the ways it would like
over recent months. There is no one root cause of this, just that its
members have all been pulled in different directions and several people
have not had the time to spend on OE to do justice to their TSC role.

As such it is with regret that Chris, Holger, Mickey and Phil have
decided to stand down from the TSC. Each person has their reasons they
may or may not decide to share but they're all different and they are
primarily personal ones. The TSC would like to make it clear these are
not any reflection on OE, any of the decisions being discussed by OE
such as Yocto or any personality issues. The people standing down do
wish to continue being involved with the project but have simply come to
realise they do not have the time to be able to help the TSC function
particularly now when its needed more than ever.

Richard is not standing down as whilst he also has time constraints, he
feels he has a contribution to make to the TSC and can and will make
time available to do this. This also allows for some continuity for the
TSC which is important, not least to try and learn from past experience.

On this subject the TSC would like to comment on the reasons they feel
things have failed other than a lack of time of its members to work on
issues as mentioned above. There are varying viewpoints on this but we
all agree the two strong themes were process (lack of) and also the type
of people on the TSC.

Process issues:

* Lack of a formal agenda process being enacted and followed. This lead 
  to lack of preparation by TSC members for meetings
* Meetings once per month may be been too in frequent and a short once 
  per week meeting might have been more effective.
* Lack of minute taking and general process skills in the TSC members 
  (or lack of time for it)
* The TSC never did define a formal interaction process between it and 
  the community.

Membership issues:

* TSC members ended up not actively involved in the project on a day to 
  day basis.
* This lead to a lack of desire for active change
* Large fraction of "old-timer" members. These people are valuable but 
  the TSC was unbalanced in that regard and this may have stifled 
  change.

The TSC doesn't select its own membership so we feel it important to
reflect some of the membership concerns to the OE membership and the
board as its these people who elect the TSC.

There are various issues needing attention ASAP and therefore the TSC
would like to propose that we call for candidates and that the board
then empower an interim TSC based on the result of that call without
waiting for a vote. If there are more candidates than seats it will go
to a vote, if we don't get enough, some current TSC members may consider
assisting the TSC until there are replacement candidates, ultimately
this issue is at the board's discretion.

Individual TSC members are going to be free to provide more information
to this summary as they feel appropriate.

The TSC is not self electing so we're going to hand this issue over to
the board at this point to determine the way forward.

--
The OE TSC




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-01-31 14:10 OE TSC Richard Purdie
@ 2011-02-01 14:51 ` Koen Kooi
  2011-02-01 15:23   ` Tom Rini
                     ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Koen Kooi @ 2011-02-01 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

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On 31-01-11 15:10, Richard Purdie wrote:

> There are various issues needing attention ASAP and therefore the TSC
> would like to propose that we call for candidates and that the board
> then empower an interim TSC based on the result of that call without
> waiting for a vote.

Since I'll be travelling the rest of the week and will likely be offline
when the actual call comes from the board:

I would like to stand as candidate for that interim TSC.

Earlier Khem and Tom Rini expressed interest in standing as candidate as
well, but I can't say if that is still the case. Please speak up if it is :)

It would be nice to have someone with an interest in the releases as
well, e.g. Stefan Schmidt.

regards,

Koen
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 14:51 ` Koen Kooi
@ 2011-02-01 15:23   ` Tom Rini
  2011-02-01 16:16     ` Khem Raj
  2011-02-01 16:52   ` Richard Purdie
  2011-02-02 16:26   ` Stefan Schmidt
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Tom Rini @ 2011-02-01 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

On 02/01/2011 07:51 AM, Koen Kooi wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 31-01-11 15:10, Richard Purdie wrote:
>
>> There are various issues needing attention ASAP and therefore the TSC
>> would like to propose that we call for candidates and that the board
>> then empower an interim TSC based on the result of that call without
>> waiting for a vote.
>
> Since I'll be travelling the rest of the week and will likely be offline
> when the actual call comes from the board:
>
> I would like to stand as candidate for that interim TSC.
>
> Earlier Khem and Tom Rini expressed interest in standing as candidate as
> well, but I can't say if that is still the case. Please speak up if it is :)
>
> It would be nice to have someone with an interest in the releases as
> well, e.g. Stefan Schmidt.

Yes, I would still like to stand for this.

-- 
Tom Rini
Mentor Graphics Corporation



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 15:23   ` Tom Rini
@ 2011-02-01 16:16     ` Khem Raj
  2011-02-01 16:43       ` Frans Meulenbroeks
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Khem Raj @ 2011-02-01 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Tom Rini <tom_rini@mentor.com> wrote:
> On 02/01/2011 07:51 AM, Koen Kooi wrote:
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 31-01-11 15:10, Richard Purdie wrote:
>>
>>> There are various issues needing attention ASAP and therefore the TSC
>>> would like to propose that we call for candidates and that the board
>>> then empower an interim TSC based on the result of that call without
>>> waiting for a vote.
>>
>> Since I'll be travelling the rest of the week and will likely be offline
>> when the actual call comes from the board:
>>
>> I would like to stand as candidate for that interim TSC.
>>
>> Earlier Khem and Tom Rini expressed interest in standing as candidate as
>> well, but I can't say if that is still the case. Please speak up if it is
>> :)
>>
>> It would be nice to have someone with an interest in the releases as
>> well, e.g. Stefan Schmidt.
>
> Yes, I would still like to stand for this.
>


Me too.


-Khem



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 16:16     ` Khem Raj
@ 2011-02-01 16:43       ` Frans Meulenbroeks
  2011-02-01 18:24         ` Philip Balister
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Frans Meulenbroeks @ 2011-02-01 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

2011/2/1 Khem Raj <raj.khem@gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Tom Rini <tom_rini@mentor.com> wrote:
>> On 02/01/2011 07:51 AM, Koen Kooi wrote:
>>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> On 31-01-11 15:10, Richard Purdie wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are various issues needing attention ASAP and therefore the TSC
>>>> would like to propose that we call for candidates and that the board
>>>> then empower an interim TSC based on the result of that call without
>>>> waiting for a vote.
>>>
>>> Since I'll be travelling the rest of the week and will likely be offline
>>> when the actual call comes from the board:
>>>> _______________________________________________
> Openembedded-devel mailing list
> Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel
>


>>> I would like to stand as candidate for that interim TSC.
>>>
>>> Earlier Khem and Tom Rini expressed interest in standing as candidate as
>>> well, but I can't say if that is still the case. Please speak up if it is
>>> :)
>>>
>>> It would be nice to have someone with an interest in the releases as
>>> well, e.g. Stefan Schmidt.
>>
>> Yes, I would still like to stand for this.
>>
>
>
> Me too.
>
>
> -Khem
>

I think the call for candidates should be on the members list, and the
voting also should be done by the members.

Frans



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 14:51 ` Koen Kooi
  2011-02-01 15:23   ` Tom Rini
@ 2011-02-01 16:52   ` Richard Purdie
  2011-02-01 19:02     ` Mark Hatle
  2011-02-02 16:26   ` Stefan Schmidt
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Richard Purdie @ 2011-02-01 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel; +Cc: Mark Hatle

On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 15:51 +0100, Koen Kooi wrote:
> On 31-01-11 15:10, Richard Purdie wrote:
> 
> > There are various issues needing attention ASAP and therefore the TSC
> > would like to propose that we call for candidates and that the board
> > then empower an interim TSC based on the result of that call without
> > waiting for a vote.
> 
> Since I'll be travelling the rest of the week and will likely be offline
> when the actual call comes from the board:
> 
> I would like to stand as candidate for that interim TSC.
> 
> Earlier Khem and Tom Rini expressed interest in standing as candidate as
> well, but I can't say if that is still the case. Please speak up if it is :)
> 
> It would be nice to have someone with an interest in the releases as
> well, e.g. Stefan Schmidt.

So just for completeness I've also wondered whether anyone from the
Yocto world would be welcome on the TSC, in particular I think Mark
Hatle might have a lot to offer.

I appreciate he isn't know much in the OE world but he has a strong
background in embedded Linux (works for Wind River) and is a strong
participant in the Yocto community. Some OE people met him in Cambridge
since he was at OEDEM.

Cheers,

Richard




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 16:43       ` Frans Meulenbroeks
@ 2011-02-01 18:24         ` Philip Balister
  2011-02-01 20:08           ` Frans Meulenbroeks
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Philip Balister @ 2011-02-01 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

On 02/01/2011 11:43 AM, Frans Meulenbroeks wrote:
>
> I think the call for candidates should be on the members list, and the
> voting also should be done by the members.

Frans, we need to get an interim TSC in place to help with the Yocto 
integration work. It will also give the membership a chance to see them 
in action before we have to vote on them.

I would like some feedback from the members about how long a TSC term 
should be and if we should stagger the positions. We can use this 
feedback to determine when to replace the appointed TSC with an elected one.

My personal thoughts are have the initial appointment be long enough to 
get the Yocto/OE integration in good shape.

Philip



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 16:52   ` Richard Purdie
@ 2011-02-01 19:02     ` Mark Hatle
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Mark Hatle @ 2011-02-01 19:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

On 2/1/11 10:52 AM, Richard Purdie wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 15:51 +0100, Koen Kooi wrote:
>> On 31-01-11 15:10, Richard Purdie wrote:
>>
>>> There are various issues needing attention ASAP and therefore the TSC
>>> would like to propose that we call for candidates and that the board
>>> then empower an interim TSC based on the result of that call without
>>> waiting for a vote.
>>
>> Since I'll be travelling the rest of the week and will likely be offline
>> when the actual call comes from the board:
>>
>> I would like to stand as candidate for that interim TSC.
>>
>> Earlier Khem and Tom Rini expressed interest in standing as candidate as
>> well, but I can't say if that is still the case. Please speak up if it is :)
>>
>> It would be nice to have someone with an interest in the releases as
>> well, e.g. Stefan Schmidt.
> 
> So just for completeness I've also wondered whether anyone from the
> Yocto world would be welcome on the TSC, in particular I think Mark
> Hatle might have a lot to offer.
> 
> I appreciate he isn't know much in the OE world but he has a strong
> background in embedded Linux (works for Wind River) and is a strong
> participant in the Yocto community. Some OE people met him in Cambridge
> since he was at OEDEM.

As Richard mentioned, I'm likely not well known within the OE community.
However, I am willing to serve on the TSC and bring my experience in embedded
Linux with me.  I've worked with both Khem and Tom both in an Open Source
capacity as well as professionally in the past.

As a quick bio, let me share my background.

Back in around 1997 I started working on MkLinux (Mach Microkernel based Linux)
on the old Power Macs.  I was one of the first people (maybe the first?) to
integrate a full 'modern' Linux distribution on a PowerPC based machine.  This
eventually lead to MkLinux, LinuxPPC and even early Yellow Dog Linux releases..

Since 2000 I've been working on embedded Linux projects.  In 2000 I was hired as
an engineer with MontaVista Software.  My responsibilities covered everything
from build systems, to toolchains, to userspace integration...

In 2005 I moved to my present employer, Wind River, and repeated many of my
previous assignments.. build systems, toolchains, package management and
userspace integration.

Since 2008, I've been involved with the GENIVI automotive organization.  I
helped in the early days determine open source strategies, as well as was the
chair for the System Infrastructure working group.

Since 2010, I've been involved with the Yocto project since the beginning.  This
was my first experience with an OE style build environment, but the general
every day work, toolchains, userspace integration, package management are all
the same problems as I've encountered numerous times in the past.

I hope this gives a quick background of my qualifications.  If anyone has any
questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

Thanks,
--Mark



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 18:24         ` Philip Balister
@ 2011-02-01 20:08           ` Frans Meulenbroeks
  2011-02-01 21:31             ` Bernhard Guillon
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Frans Meulenbroeks @ 2011-02-01 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel, openembedded-members, board

2011/2/1 Philip Balister <philip@balister.org>:
> On 02/01/2011 11:43 AM, Frans Meulenbroeks wrote:
>>
>> I think the call for candidates should be on the members list, and the
>> voting also should be done by the members.
>
> Frans, we need to get an interim TSC in place to help with the Yocto
> integration work. It will also give the membership a chance to see them in
> action before we have to vote on them.
>
> I would like some feedback from the members about how long a TSC term should
> be and if we should stagger the positions. We can use this feedback to
> determine when to replace the appointed TSC with an elected one.
>
> My personal thoughts are have the initial appointment be long enough to get
> the Yocto/OE integration in good shape.
>
> Philip

Philip, is this your personal view or are your representing the board in this?

In the start post Richard wrote:
"The TSC is not self electing so we're going to hand this issue over to
the board at this point to determine the way forward."

I have not seen any communication from the board on this (but of
course there is always the chance I missed it, most days oe+poky+yocto
email seem to be > 100 mails), unless your mail is on behalf of the
board.

I feel the board has a responsibility on stating the procedure that
will be followed on this.
I see people putting themselves forward as candidates, but I have not
even seen a call for candidates, or a period during which people can
candidate themselves, or any indication on how they will be selected.

And while I agree that we need a team to work on the oe <-> yocto
cooperation (or maybe collaboration is a better word), but a team that
is chosen by the community is much more empowered to make decisions.

Wrt the TSC term: from the oedem 2010 minutes:
"- January 7th 2010 TSC meeting minutes mentions the yearly TSC re-election."
It might e a good idea move to a longer term and staggered election.
(e.g. half of the TSC stepping down in a year). I feel we can have
this discussion also at a later time.

Best regards, Frans.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 20:08           ` Frans Meulenbroeks
@ 2011-02-01 21:31             ` Bernhard Guillon
  2011-02-01 22:59               ` Richard Purdie
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Bernhard Guillon @ 2011-02-01 21:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

On 01.02.2011 21:08, Frans Meulenbroeks wrote:
> ... a team that
> is chosen by the community is much more empowered to make decisions.
>
+1

In my opinion it is very important in the current situation to have a vote.

best regards

Bernhard Guillon




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 21:31             ` Bernhard Guillon
@ 2011-02-01 22:59               ` Richard Purdie
  2011-02-02  8:54                 ` Frans Meulenbroeks
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Richard Purdie @ 2011-02-01 22:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 22:31 +0100, Bernhard Guillon wrote:
> On 01.02.2011 21:08, Frans Meulenbroeks wrote:
> > ... a team that
> > is chosen by the community is much more empowered to make decisions.
> >
> +1
> 
> In my opinion it is very important in the current situation to have a vote.

Just please keep in mind what this looks like to the outside world.

So far various amounts of bad timing, unfortunate circumstances and the
rules have meant that 2-4 months on we could appear to be going around
in circles and unlikely to make a "real" decision soon (at least six
weeks for a vote).

Yocto talks to people commercially and 3-5 months to make some decisions
(not implement, just make the decisions) would be commercial suicide to
a business.

I accept this takes as long as it takes and I'm not going to even
attempt to rush anything but OE isn't doing its perception much good to
be brutally honest.

On the plus side I know there are positive moves afoot too so its not
all doom and gloom but its worth keeping the above in mind.

Cheers,

Richard









^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 22:59               ` Richard Purdie
@ 2011-02-02  8:54                 ` Frans Meulenbroeks
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Frans Meulenbroeks @ 2011-02-02  8:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

2011/2/1 Richard Purdie <rpurdie@rpsys.net>:
> On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 22:31 +0100, Bernhard Guillon wrote:
>> On 01.02.2011 21:08, Frans Meulenbroeks wrote:
>> > ... a team that
>> > is chosen by the community is much more empowered to make decisions.
>> >
>> +1
>>
>> In my opinion it is very important in the current situation to have a vote.
>
> Just please keep in mind what this looks like to the outside world.
>
> So far various amounts of bad timing, unfortunate circumstances and the
> rules have meant that 2-4 months on we could appear to be going around
> in circles and unlikely to make a "real" decision soon (at least six
> weeks for a vote).
>
> Yocto talks to people commercially and 3-5 months to make some decisions
> (not implement, just make the decisions) would be commercial suicide to
> a business.
>
> I accept this takes as long as it takes and I'm not going to even
> attempt to rush anything but OE isn't doing its perception much good to
> be brutally honest.
>
> On the plus side I know there are positive moves afoot too so its not
> all doom and gloom but its worth keeping the above in mind.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard
>
Richard, I agree with you.
I feel we could have made more progress, but things take the time they need.

I am not against an interim TSC, but I would like to see some openness
of the board on how they feel they should move forward. Guess it'll be
after FOSDEM though (if I interpreted Graeme's message properly).
I can imagine we do not want to waste another 6 weeks or so on voting
for a new TSC, but I think it is desirable that the way forward is
clear for and backed by the community.

Best regards, Frans.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: OE TSC
  2011-02-01 14:51 ` Koen Kooi
  2011-02-01 15:23   ` Tom Rini
  2011-02-01 16:52   ` Richard Purdie
@ 2011-02-02 16:26   ` Stefan Schmidt
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Schmidt @ 2011-02-02 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: openembedded-devel

Hello.

On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 15:51, Koen Kooi wrote:
> 
> Earlier Khem and Tom Rini expressed interest in standing as candidate as
> well, but I can't say if that is still the case. Please speak up if it is :)
> 
> It would be nice to have someone with an interest in the releases as
> well, e.g. Stefan Schmidt.

My personal fear would be that I may lack in-depth knowledge for technical
guidance. If people think I would make a job at the TSC I would be willing to
help out with an potential interim TSC.

regards
Stefan Schmidt



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2011-02-02 16:27 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2011-01-31 14:10 OE TSC Richard Purdie
2011-02-01 14:51 ` Koen Kooi
2011-02-01 15:23   ` Tom Rini
2011-02-01 16:16     ` Khem Raj
2011-02-01 16:43       ` Frans Meulenbroeks
2011-02-01 18:24         ` Philip Balister
2011-02-01 20:08           ` Frans Meulenbroeks
2011-02-01 21:31             ` Bernhard Guillon
2011-02-01 22:59               ` Richard Purdie
2011-02-02  8:54                 ` Frans Meulenbroeks
2011-02-01 16:52   ` Richard Purdie
2011-02-01 19:02     ` Mark Hatle
2011-02-02 16:26   ` Stefan Schmidt

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