Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Manish Katiyar]

Hi,

I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux
containers recently and was wondering if there are any existing
recipes on how to setup a kernel environment in containers. Google
hasn't been helpful so far (or maybe I'm not searching properly).

I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it may
be interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they
same OS image as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the
host OS crash.

Any suggestions.

Thanks -
Manish

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Jeff Haran]

>-----Original Message-----
From: kernelnewbies-bounces@kernelnewbies.org [mailto:kernelnewbies-
>bounces at kernelnewbies.org] On Behalf Of Manish Katiyar
>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:51 AM
>To: kernelnewbies
>Subject: Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?
>
>Hi,
>
>I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux containers
>recently and was wondering if there are any existing recipes on how to setup
>a kernel environment in containers. Google hasn't been helpful so far (or
>maybe I'm not searching properly).
>
>I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it may be
>interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they same OS image
>as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the host OS crash.
>
>Any suggestions.
>
>Thanks -
>Manish

I'm not sure what your goal is here, but it sounds to me like you might want to be googling for "linux namespaces".

Jeff Haran

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Manish Katiyar]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Jeff Haran <Jeff.Haran@citrix.com> wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: kernelnewbies-bounces at kernelnewbies.org [mailto:kernelnewbies-
>>bounces at kernelnewbies.org] On Behalf Of Manish Katiyar
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:51 AM
>>To: kernelnewbies
>>Subject: Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux containers
>>recently and was wondering if there are any existing recipes on how to setup
>>a kernel environment in containers. Google hasn't been helpful so far (or
>>maybe I'm not searching properly).
>>
>>I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it may be
>>interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they same OS image
>>as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the host OS crash.
>>
>>Any suggestions.
>>
>>Thanks -
>>Manish
>
> I'm not sure what your goal is here, but it sounds to me like you might want to be googling for "linux namespaces".

I'm sorry. I see that my previous mail had a key word "development"
missing. What I was trying to find out was that is it possible to
setup and use linux containers/cgroups to do kernel development.
Things like writing and test kernel modules, debugging kernel,
attaching gdb etc. etc. which normally require Qemu, busybox or other
VM techniques since containers are much lightweight and if anyone has
recipes for that setup to do development without crashing the host OS.

Any hints appreciated. I looked for "linux namespaces" but it doesn't
give me what I want.

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 01:23:18PM -0700, Manish Katiyar wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Jeff Haran <Jeff.Haran@citrix.com> wrote:
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: kernelnewbies-bounces at kernelnewbies.org [mailto:kernelnewbies-
> >>bounces at kernelnewbies.org] On Behalf Of Manish Katiyar
> >>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:51 AM
> >>To: kernelnewbies
> >>Subject: Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?
> >>
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux containers
> >>recently and was wondering if there are any existing recipes on how to setup
> >>a kernel environment in containers. Google hasn't been helpful so far (or
> >>maybe I'm not searching properly).
> >>
> >>I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it may be
> >>interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they same OS image
> >>as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the host OS crash.
> >>
> >>Any suggestions.
> >>
> >>Thanks -
> >>Manish
> >
> > I'm not sure what your goal is here, but it sounds to me like you might want to be googling for "linux namespaces".
> 
> I'm sorry. I see that my previous mail had a key word "development"
> missing. What I was trying to find out was that is it possible to
> setup and use linux containers/cgroups to do kernel development.
> Things like writing and test kernel modules, debugging kernel,
> attaching gdb etc. etc. which normally require Qemu, busybox or other
> VM techniques since containers are much lightweight and if anyone has
> recipes for that setup to do development without crashing the host OS.

No, this will not work for that task, you are running the same kernel,
only userspace is "partitioned" off in different ways.

sorry, stick with kvm.

greg k-h

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Greg Freemyer]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Manish Katiyar <mkatiyar@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Jeff Haran <Jeff.Haran@citrix.com> wrote:
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: kernelnewbies-bounces at kernelnewbies.org [mailto:kernelnewbies-
>>>bounces at kernelnewbies.org] On Behalf Of Manish Katiyar
>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:51 AM
>>>To: kernelnewbies
>>>Subject: Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux containers
>>>recently and was wondering if there are any existing recipes on how to setup
>>>a kernel environment in containers. Google hasn't been helpful so far (or
>>>maybe I'm not searching properly).
>>>
>>>I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it may be
>>>interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they same OS image
>>>as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the host OS crash.
>>>
>>>Any suggestions.
>>>
>>>Thanks -
>>>Manish
>>
>> I'm not sure what your goal is here, but it sounds to me like you might want to be googling for "linux namespaces".
>
> I'm sorry. I see that my previous mail had a key word "development"
> missing. What I was trying to find out was that is it possible to
> setup and use linux containers/cgroups to do kernel development.
> Things like writing and test kernel modules, debugging kernel,
> attaching gdb etc. etc. which normally require Qemu, busybox or other
> VM techniques since containers are much lightweight and if anyone has
> recipes for that setup to do development without crashing the host OS.
>
> Any hints appreciated. I looked for "linux namespaces" but it doesn't
> give me what I want.
>

I have no first hand experience, but I don't think containers have the
flexibility you need.  Docker in particular shares the kernel with the
host OS as far as I know, so it would not be of any value that I can
see.

I think a unikernel may be what you are looking for:

http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/cloud-computing/821243-unikernel-use-cases-containers

My understanding is that with a unikernel you can move targeted
portions of the Hypervisor kernel up into the unikernel.  Thus if you
wanted to work on a network driver, you could implement it in a
unikernel.  Then if it blew up you would fall back to the hypervisor
level, kill the unikernel and try again.

The Rump kernel (a unikernel) in particular might be a good option:

==
Rump Kernels ?? provide free, portable, componentized, kernel quality
drivers such as file systems, POSIX system call handlers, PCI device
drivers, a SCSI protocol stack, virtio and a TCP/IP stack. These
drivers may be integrated into existing systems, or run as stand-alone
unikernels on cloud hypervisors and embedded systems.
==

I have no first hand experience with the Rump Kernel, so I don't know
if it would work as a way to do linux kernel development or not.  It
certainly seems like a great environment for generic kernel
development.

Hope that helps
Greg

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Manish Katiyar]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Manish Katiyar <mkatiyar@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Jeff Haran <Jeff.Haran@citrix.com> wrote:
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: kernelnewbies-bounces at kernelnewbies.org [mailto:kernelnewbies-
>>>>bounces at kernelnewbies.org] On Behalf Of Manish Katiyar
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:51 AM
>>>>To: kernelnewbies
>>>>Subject: Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?
>>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux containers
>>>>recently and was wondering if there are any existing recipes on how to setup
>>>>a kernel environment in containers. Google hasn't been helpful so far (or
>>>>maybe I'm not searching properly).
>>>>
>>>>I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it may be
>>>>interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they same OS image
>>>>as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the host OS crash.
>>>>
>>>>Any suggestions.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks -
>>>>Manish
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what your goal is here, but it sounds to me like you might want to be googling for "linux namespaces".
>>
>> I'm sorry. I see that my previous mail had a key word "development"
>> missing. What I was trying to find out was that is it possible to
>> setup and use linux containers/cgroups to do kernel development.
>> Things like writing and test kernel modules, debugging kernel,
>> attaching gdb etc. etc. which normally require Qemu, busybox or other
>> VM techniques since containers are much lightweight and if anyone has
>> recipes for that setup to do development without crashing the host OS.
>>
>> Any hints appreciated. I looked for "linux namespaces" but it doesn't
>> give me what I want.
>>
>
> I have no first hand experience, but I don't think containers have the
> flexibility you need.  Docker in particular shares the kernel with the
> host OS as far as I know, so it would not be of any value that I can
> see.
>
> I think a unikernel may be what you are looking for:
>
> http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/cloud-computing/821243-unikernel-use-cases-containers
>
> My understanding is that with a unikernel you can move targeted
> portions of the Hypervisor kernel up into the unikernel.  Thus if you
> wanted to work on a network driver, you could implement it in a
> unikernel.  Then if it blew up you would fall back to the hypervisor
> level, kill the unikernel and try again.
>
> The Rump kernel (a unikernel) in particular might be a good option:
>
> ==
> Rump Kernels ?? provide free, portable, componentized, kernel quality
> drivers such as file systems, POSIX system call handlers, PCI device
> drivers, a SCSI protocol stack, virtio and a TCP/IP stack. These
> drivers may be integrated into existing systems, or run as stand-alone
> unikernels on cloud hypervisors and embedded systems.
> ==
>
> I have no first hand experience with the Rump Kernel, so I don't know
> if it would work as a way to do linux kernel development or not.  It
> certainly seems like a great environment for generic kernel
> development.

Thanks a lot GregF/GregKH,

  That's what I suspected, that it might not be possible because of
both sharing the same OS. I'll have a look at Rump Kernels and see how
far it goes. Thanks for the pointers !

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Grzegorz Dwornicki]

What about UML? I'm using KVM but asking for the sake of argument.

2015-07-29 23:03 GMT+02:00 Manish Katiyar <mkatiyar@gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Manish Katiyar <mkatiyar@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Jeff Haran <Jeff.Haran@citrix.com> wrote:
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: kernelnewbies-bounces at kernelnewbies.org [mailto:kernelnewbies-
>>>>>bounces at kernelnewbies.org] On Behalf Of Manish Katiyar
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:51 AM
>>>>>To: kernelnewbies
>>>>>Subject: Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux containers
>>>>>recently and was wondering if there are any existing recipes on how to setup
>>>>>a kernel environment in containers. Google hasn't been helpful so far (or
>>>>>maybe I'm not searching properly).
>>>>>
>>>>>I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it may be
>>>>>interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they same OS image
>>>>>as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the host OS crash.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks -
>>>>>Manish
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what your goal is here, but it sounds to me like you might want to be googling for "linux namespaces".
>>>
>>> I'm sorry. I see that my previous mail had a key word "development"
>>> missing. What I was trying to find out was that is it possible to
>>> setup and use linux containers/cgroups to do kernel development.
>>> Things like writing and test kernel modules, debugging kernel,
>>> attaching gdb etc. etc. which normally require Qemu, busybox or other
>>> VM techniques since containers are much lightweight and if anyone has
>>> recipes for that setup to do development without crashing the host OS.
>>>
>>> Any hints appreciated. I looked for "linux namespaces" but it doesn't
>>> give me what I want.
>>>
>>
>> I have no first hand experience, but I don't think containers have the
>> flexibility you need.  Docker in particular shares the kernel with the
>> host OS as far as I know, so it would not be of any value that I can
>> see.
>>
>> I think a unikernel may be what you are looking for:
>>
>> http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/cloud-computing/821243-unikernel-use-cases-containers
>>
>> My understanding is that with a unikernel you can move targeted
>> portions of the Hypervisor kernel up into the unikernel.  Thus if you
>> wanted to work on a network driver, you could implement it in a
>> unikernel.  Then if it blew up you would fall back to the hypervisor
>> level, kill the unikernel and try again.
>>
>> The Rump kernel (a unikernel) in particular might be a good option:
>>
>> ==
>> Rump Kernels ?? provide free, portable, componentized, kernel quality
>> drivers such as file systems, POSIX system call handlers, PCI device
>> drivers, a SCSI protocol stack, virtio and a TCP/IP stack. These
>> drivers may be integrated into existing systems, or run as stand-alone
>> unikernels on cloud hypervisors and embedded systems.
>> ==
>>
>> I have no first hand experience with the Rump Kernel, so I don't know
>> if it would work as a way to do linux kernel development or not.  It
>> certainly seems like a great environment for generic kernel
>> development.
>
> Thanks a lot GregF/GregKH,
>
>   That's what I suspected, that it might not be possible because of
> both sharing the same OS. I'll have a look at Rump Kernels and see how
> far it goes. Thanks for the pointers !
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies

Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?

[Grzegorz Dwornicki]

As I said I use kvm and this question was just for sake of argument. Since
you ask I work with sockets ATM.
30 lip 2015 16:03 "nick" <xerofoify@gmail.com> napisa?(a):

>
>
> On 2015-07-30 09:57 AM, Grzegorz Dwornicki wrote:
> > Yeah I've thought that hardware can be hard to program on UML
> > 30 lip 2015 14:48 "nick" <xerofoify@gmail.com> napisa?(a):
> >
> Just so I known what area are you working in as this may help
> me find a better solution for you.
> Nick
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2015-07-30 08:47 AM, Grzegorz Dwornicki wrote:
> >>> What about UML? I'm using KVM but asking for the sake of argument.
> >>>
> >> I already stated that it works fine if your not doing hardware
> >> exact development like file systems or networking core.
> >> Nick
> >>> 2015-07-29 23:03 GMT+02:00 Manish Katiyar <mkatiyar@gmail.com>:
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Greg Freemyer <
> greg.freemyer at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Manish Katiyar <mkatiyar@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Jeff Haran <Jeff.Haran@citrix.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: kernelnewbies-bounces at kernelnewbies.org [mailto:
> >> kernelnewbies-
> >>>>>>>> bounces at kernelnewbies.org] On Behalf Of Manish Katiyar
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:51 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: kernelnewbies
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Kernel development using linux containers (LXC ) ?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I've been playing and reading about control groups and linux
> >> containers
> >>>>>>>> recently and was wondering if there are any existing recipes on
> how
> >> to setup
> >>>>>>>> a kernel environment in containers. Google hasn't been helpful so
> >> far (or
> >>>>>>>> maybe I'm not searching properly).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I've used VMs for dev in past (Qemu, uml etc.), but looks like it
> >> may be
> >>>>>>>> interesting to have it in containers. Given that they share they
> >> same OS image
> >>>>>>>> as host, I'm not sure if its possible without making the host OS
> >> crash.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Any suggestions.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks -
> >>>>>>>> Manish
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm not sure what your goal is here, but it sounds to me like you
> >> might want to be googling for "linux namespaces".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm sorry. I see that my previous mail had a key word "development"
> >>>>>> missing. What I was trying to find out was that is it possible to
> >>>>>> setup and use linux containers/cgroups to do kernel development.
> >>>>>> Things like writing and test kernel modules, debugging kernel,
> >>>>>> attaching gdb etc. etc. which normally require Qemu, busybox or
> other
> >>>>>> VM techniques since containers are much lightweight and if anyone
> has
> >>>>>> recipes for that setup to do development without crashing the host
> OS.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Any hints appreciated. I looked for "linux namespaces" but it
> doesn't
> >>>>>> give me what I want.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have no first hand experience, but I don't think containers have
> the
> >>>>> flexibility you need.  Docker in particular shares the kernel with
> the
> >>>>> host OS as far as I know, so it would not be of any value that I can
> >>>>> see.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think a unikernel may be what you are looking for:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/cloud-computing/821243-unikernel-use-cases-containers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My understanding is that with a unikernel you can move targeted
> >>>>> portions of the Hypervisor kernel up into the unikernel.  Thus if you
> >>>>> wanted to work on a network driver, you could implement it in a
> >>>>> unikernel.  Then if it blew up you would fall back to the hypervisor
> >>>>> level, kill the unikernel and try again.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Rump kernel (a unikernel) in particular might be a good option:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ==
> >>>>> Rump Kernels ? provide free, portable, componentized, kernel quality
> >>>>> drivers such as file systems, POSIX system call handlers, PCI device
> >>>>> drivers, a SCSI protocol stack, virtio and a TCP/IP stack. These
> >>>>> drivers may be integrated into existing systems, or run as
> stand-alone
> >>>>> unikernels on cloud hypervisors and embedded systems.
> >>>>> ==
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have no first hand experience with the Rump Kernel, so I don't know
> >>>>> if it would work as a way to do linux kernel development or not.  It
> >>>>> certainly seems like a great environment for generic kernel
> >>>>> development.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks a lot GregF/GregKH,
> >>>>
> >>>>   That's what I suspected, that it might not be possible because of
> >>>> both sharing the same OS. I'll have a look at Rump Kernels and see how
> >>>> far it goes. Thanks for the pointers !
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> >>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> >>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> >>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> >>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
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