* [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig @ 2013-07-16 16:52 Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 16:58 ` Richard Weinberger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: LKML; +Cc: Richard Weinberger, Jeff Dike Avoid creating lots of bogus devices nodes like /dev/tty* (since User-Mode Linux does not have virtual consoles. Cc: Richard Weinberger <richard@nod.at> Cc: Jeff Dike <jdike@addtoit.com> Signed-off-by: Ramkumar Ramachandra <artagnon@gmail.com> --- Applies on top of the patch I posted earlier. arch/um/configs/i386_defconfig | 3 +-- arch/um/configs/x86_64_defconfig | 3 +-- 2 files changed, 2 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-) diff --git a/arch/um/configs/i386_defconfig b/arch/um/configs/i386_defconfig index 995aecd..93f4f97 100644 --- a/arch/um/configs/i386_defconfig +++ b/arch/um/configs/i386_defconfig @@ -293,8 +293,7 @@ CONFIG_HOSTAUDIO=m # Generic Driver Options # CONFIG_UEVENT_HELPER_PATH="/sbin/hotplug" -CONFIG_DEVTMPFS=y -CONFIG_DEVTMPFS_MOUNT=y +# CONFIG_DEVTMPFS is not set CONFIG_STANDALONE=y CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD=y CONFIG_FW_LOADER=y diff --git a/arch/um/configs/x86_64_defconfig b/arch/um/configs/x86_64_defconfig index f2c6123..17650a6 100644 --- a/arch/um/configs/x86_64_defconfig +++ b/arch/um/configs/x86_64_defconfig @@ -285,8 +285,7 @@ CONFIG_HOSTAUDIO=m # Generic Driver Options # CONFIG_UEVENT_HELPER_PATH="/sbin/hotplug" -CONFIG_DEVTMPFS=y -CONFIG_DEVTMPFS_MOUNT=y +# CONFIG_DEVTMPFS is not set CONFIG_STANDALONE=y CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD=y CONFIG_FW_LOADER=y -- 1.8.3.3.754.g9c3c367 ^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 16:52 [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 16:58 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:06 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Am 16.07.2013 18:52, schrieb Ramkumar Ramachandra: > Avoid creating lots of bogus devices nodes like /dev/tty* (since > User-Mode Linux does not have virtual consoles. > > Cc: Richard Weinberger <richard@nod.at> > Cc: Jeff Dike <jdike@addtoit.com> > Signed-off-by: Ramkumar Ramachandra <artagnon@gmail.com> > --- NAK. If you don't want devtmpfs, just disable it in your config. Thanks, //richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 16:58 ` Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:06 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:08 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:47 ` Al Viro 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Weinberger; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Richard Weinberger wrote: > If you don't want devtmpfs, just disable it in your config. I don't understand: is this not a good default? Why is creating bogus devices, confusing systemd, and making um Linux hard to boot desirable? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:06 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:08 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:15 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:47 ` Al Viro 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Am 16.07.2013 19:06, schrieb Ramkumar Ramachandra: > Richard Weinberger wrote: >> If you don't want devtmpfs, just disable it in your config. > > I don't understand: is this not a good default? Why is creating bogus > devices, confusing systemd, and making um Linux hard to boot > desirable? > Why does this confuse systemd? systemd has also a dependency on devtmpfs. Thanks, //richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:08 ` Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:15 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:20 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Weinberger; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Richard Weinberger wrote: > Why does this confuse systemd? systemd has also a dependency on devtmpfs. See getty@.service, which is a dependency of getty.target: # On systems without virtual consoles, don't start any getty. (Note # that serial gettys are covered by serial-getty@.service, not this # unit ConditionPathExists=/dev/tty0 No, systemd does not have a hard dependency on devtmpfs. See src/getty-generator/getty-generator.c: if (detect_container(NULL) > 0) { log_debug("Automatically adding console shell."); if (add_symlink("console-getty.service", "console-getty.service") < 0) r = EXIT_FAILURE; /* Don't add any further magic if we are in a container */ goto finish; } I can add a rule for detect_vm() and id = "uml" here, so that um Linux runs console-getty.service out-of-the-box. After I do that, systemd-vconsole-setup.service will fail precisely because systemd sees a /dev/tty0 and gets confused. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:15 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:20 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:23 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:31 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Weinberger; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: > No, systemd does not have a hard dependency on devtmpfs. Wait, let me double-check that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:20 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:23 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:36 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:31 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Am 16.07.2013 19:20, schrieb Ramkumar Ramachandra: > Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: >> No, systemd does not have a hard dependency on devtmpfs. > > Wait, let me double-check that. > BTW: I'll not apply any patch to the kernel if the issue can easily fixed in user space, that's the major reason for my NAK. Thanks, //richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:23 ` Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:36 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:39 ` Richard Weinberger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Weinberger; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Richard Weinberger wrote: > BTW: I'll not apply any patch to the kernel if the issue can easily > fixed in user space, that's the major reason for my NAK. I was just asking for good defaults; I want um Linux to work out-of-the-box. There's really no point in creating bogus devices in /dev, and make life unnecessarily hard for user-space applications: instead of checking for existence, they'd have to check that all the devices work. I doubt systemd will accept such a patch, just to bend over backwards and support um. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:36 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:39 ` Richard Weinberger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Am 16.07.2013 19:36, schrieb Ramkumar Ramachandra: > Richard Weinberger wrote: >> BTW: I'll not apply any patch to the kernel if the issue can easily >> fixed in user space, that's the major reason for my NAK. > > I was just asking for good defaults; I want um Linux to work > out-of-the-box. There's really no point in creating bogus devices in > /dev, and make life unnecessarily hard for user-space applications: > instead of checking for existence, they'd have to check that all the > devices work. I doubt systemd will accept such a patch, just to bend > over backwards and support um. Out of the box wont work in all cases. But you can easily adjust some systemd units. Like any visualization technology UML comes with some trade-offs. Thanks, //richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:20 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:23 ` Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:31 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:34 ` Richard Weinberger 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Weinberger; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: > Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: >> No, systemd does not have a hard dependency on devtmpfs. > > Wait, let me double-check that. Sorry about the stupidity; devtmpfs is very much a hard dependency. I just realized that CONFIG_VT is on, and can't be turned off (!). See drivers/tty/Kconfig: config VT bool "Virtual terminal" if EXPERT depends on !S390 && !UML Wait, shouldn't it be always off then? *scratches head* ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:31 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 17:34 ` Richard Weinberger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: LKML, Jeff Dike Am 16.07.2013 19:31, schrieb Ramkumar Ramachandra: > Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: >> Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: >>> No, systemd does not have a hard dependency on devtmpfs. >> >> Wait, let me double-check that. > > Sorry about the stupidity; devtmpfs is very much a hard dependency. I > just realized that CONFIG_VT is on, and can't be turned off (!). See > drivers/tty/Kconfig: > > config VT > bool "Virtual terminal" if EXPERT > depends on !S390 && !UML > > Wait, shouldn't it be always off then? /me hands you a fresh cup of coffee over. :-) Please note the depends on !UML. Thanks, //richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:06 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:08 ` Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 17:47 ` Al Viro 2013-07-16 18:12 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Al Viro @ 2013-07-16 17:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: Richard Weinberger, LKML, Jeff Dike On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:36:25PM +0530, Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: > Richard Weinberger wrote: > > If you don't want devtmpfs, just disable it in your config. > > I don't understand: is this not a good default? Why is creating bogus > devices, confusing systemd, and making um Linux hard to boot > desirable? As for the devices, they are *not* bogus. RTFM, already. Documentation/virtual/uml/UserModeLinux-HOWTO.txt, if you can't be bothered to say git grep UML Documentation/ and find where it on your own. The relevant section is called "Setting up serial lines and consoles". Seriously, it's not as if the documentation didn't exist or had been hard to find... FWIW, default config is rather annoying - 6 xterms spawned and associated with /dev/tty[1-6]. con0=fd:0,fd:1 con=pts mentioned in the HOWTO would, IMO, make for much saner default. No comments on systemd behaviour - take that with LP and his crowd. They may or may not be confused by /dev/tty1 not being a virtual console. One practical issue is the lack of VT102 emulation; TERM=linux when logged in on those is not right - you want either TERM=xterm (for xterms) or TERM=screen (when accessing pts-associated ones with screen /dev/pts/n), etc. In any case, it's a dumb serial line as far as the guest kernel is concerned - all terminal emulation is going to happen elsewhere (xterms running on host and interpreting escape sequences from guest userland, etc.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 17:47 ` Al Viro @ 2013-07-16 18:12 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 18:20 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 19:03 ` Al Viro 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Al Viro; +Cc: Richard Weinberger, LKML, Jeff Dike Al Viro wrote: > As for the devices, they are *not* bogus. RTFM, already. > Documentation/virtual/uml/UserModeLinux-HOWTO.txt, if you can't be bothered > to say git grep UML Documentation/ and find where it on your own. The > relevant section is called "Setting up serial lines and consoles". > Seriously, it's not as if the documentation didn't exist or had been > hard to find... Yes; I've been trying to decipher the con thing for some time now. > FWIW, default config is rather annoying - 6 xterms spawned and associated > with /dev/tty[1-6]. con0=fd:0,fd:1 con=pts mentioned in the HOWTO would, > IMO, make for much saner default. Leave aside the fact that I could not find the uml-utils upstream [1], and didn't have a /uml/port-helper to connect the xterms for a second; I didn't even understand what was supposed to happen. Why do we spawn xterms, and attach to the host's /dev/tty*? So far, I just used /dev/console inside my existing tmux session in urxvt, and it seems to work fine. > No comments on systemd behaviour - take that with LP and his crowd. They > may or may not be confused by /dev/tty1 not being a virtual console. >From my brief discussion with Lennart, he's just following what Documentation/devices.txt says: /dev/tty* are virtual consoles. If um is making some sort of exception for good reason, I'm sure systemd can accommodate it. > One > practical issue is the lack of VT102 emulation; This detail is not at all clear from the Documentation. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why systemd wasn't able to getty on /dev/tty1. > TERM=linux when logged > in on those is not right - you want either TERM=xterm (for xterms) or > TERM=screen (when accessing pts-associated ones with screen /dev/pts/n), > etc. In any case, it's a dumb serial line as far as the guest kernel > is concerned - all terminal emulation is going to happen elsewhere (xterms > running on host and interpreting escape sequences from guest userland, > etc.) Hm, what does $TERM have to do with all this? [1]: A fabulously empty git repository here: sourceforge.net/p/user-mode-linux/git/ref/master/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 18:12 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 18:20 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 19:29 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 19:03 ` Al Viro 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: Al Viro, LKML, Jeff Dike Am 16.07.2013 20:12, schrieb Ramkumar Ramachandra: > Al Viro wrote: >> As for the devices, they are *not* bogus. RTFM, already. >> Documentation/virtual/uml/UserModeLinux-HOWTO.txt, if you can't be bothered >> to say git grep UML Documentation/ and find where it on your own. The >> relevant section is called "Setting up serial lines and consoles". >> Seriously, it's not as if the documentation didn't exist or had been >> hard to find... > > Yes; I've been trying to decipher the con thing for some time now. > >> FWIW, default config is rather annoying - 6 xterms spawned and associated >> with /dev/tty[1-6]. con0=fd:0,fd:1 con=pts mentioned in the HOWTO would, >> IMO, make for much saner default. > > Leave aside the fact that I could not find the uml-utils upstream [1], http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/downloads.html > and didn't have a /uml/port-helper to connect the xterms for a second; > I didn't even understand what was supposed to happen. Why do we spawn > xterms, and attach to the host's /dev/tty*? So far, I just used > /dev/console inside my existing tmux session in urxvt, and it seems to > work fine. > >> No comments on systemd behaviour - take that with LP and his crowd. They >> may or may not be confused by /dev/tty1 not being a virtual console. > > From my brief discussion with Lennart, he's just following what > Documentation/devices.txt says: /dev/tty* are virtual consoles. If um > is making some sort of exception for good reason, I'm sure systemd can > accommodate it. /me wonders since when /dev/ttyS0 is a virtual console... Thanks, //richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 18:20 ` Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 19:29 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 19:32 ` Richard Weinberger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Weinberger; +Cc: Al Viro, LKML, Jeff Dike Richard Weinberger wrote: > http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/downloads.html I found a uml_utilities_20070815.tar.bz2. 2007, seriously? Is there no interest in maintaining it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 19:29 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra @ 2013-07-16 19:32 ` Richard Weinberger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: Al Viro, LKML, Jeff Dike Am 16.07.2013 21:29, schrieb Ramkumar Ramachandra: > Richard Weinberger wrote: >> http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/downloads.html > > I found a uml_utilities_20070815.tar.bz2. 2007, seriously? Is there > no interest in maintaining it? What patches are missing? Maintaining != Applying a patch every day. Have you ever seen djb's software? Thanks, //richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig 2013-07-16 18:12 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 18:20 ` Richard Weinberger @ 2013-07-16 19:03 ` Al Viro 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Al Viro @ 2013-07-16 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ramkumar Ramachandra; +Cc: Richard Weinberger, LKML, Jeff Dike On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:42:55PM +0530, Ramkumar Ramachandra wrote: > Leave aside the fact that I could not find the uml-utils upstream [1], > and didn't have a /uml/port-helper to connect the xterms for a second; > I didn't even understand what was supposed to happen. Why do we spawn > xterms, and attach to the host's /dev/tty*? So far, I just used > /dev/console inside my existing tmux session in urxvt, and it seems to > work fine. There are several things that can be attached to them. Again, see the HOWTO for details. FWIW, I prefer to have console in whatever I'm launching the whole thing in (usually - ssh session to the box I'm using to run all kinds of testing stuff on) with tty[1-6] attached to pts and accessed via screen /dev/pts/<n> on the same box (again, from ssh sessions, obviously). > > One > > practical issue is the lack of VT102 emulation; > > This detail is not at all clear from the Documentation. I spent a lot > of time trying to figure out why systemd wasn't able to getty on > /dev/tty1. No fscking idea - sysvinit has no problem with launching getty instances (on explicit lines in inittab, that is), so it's not a problem on getty side of things. And as much as I dislike systemd, I think it's not to blame in this case. It looks like it *does* lauch getty just fine, but your host is misconfigured in a way that makes attempts to open the corresponding device nodes fail. With the messages you've quoted. The same HOWTO has 2.3 Compiling and installing uml_utilities right after 2.1 Compiling the kernel 2.2 Compiling and installing kernel modules so it's not as if the needed setup had not been mentioned. FWIW, it would be a good idea to package the damn thing for Fedora - Debian has $ apt-cache search 'User-Mode Linux' rootstrap - A tool for building complete Linux filesystem images uml-utilities - User-mode Linux (utility programs) user-mode-linux-doc - User-mode Linux (Documentation) user-mode-linux - User-mode Linux (kernel) $ > > TERM=linux when logged > > in on those is not right - you want either TERM=xterm (for xterms) or > > TERM=screen (when accessing pts-associated ones with screen /dev/pts/n), > > etc. In any case, it's a dumb serial line as far as the guest kernel > > is concerned - all terminal emulation is going to happen elsewhere (xterms > > running on host and interpreting escape sequences from guest userland, > > etc.) > > Hm, what does $TERM have to do with all this? Huh? That's what tells all curses-based stuff which escape sequences to emit. And that's the *only* thing in which "it's not a VT" matters at all. Again, your description of symptoms doesn't look like "systemd gets confused by tty1 not being a VT and fails to launch getty"; it appears to be "systemd does see tty1 and does launch getty, albeit with slightly wrong terminal type argument. Which doesn't matter, since getty fails to open the device nodes due to missing utilities on host". Install said utilities or switch to explicit con=... in command line and getty will launch just fine. That's where TERM= settings come into play - some curses-based stuff will assume it has all linux VT escape sequences to play with and the thing you are using to access it might not be happy. Other than that (and this is the thing you pass to getty as terminal type - the last argument for agetty(8)), everything seems to boil down to lack of uml utils on host... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-07-16 19:32 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2013-07-16 16:52 [PATCH] um/configs: don't use devtmpfs in defconfig Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 16:58 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:06 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:08 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:15 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:20 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:23 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:36 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:39 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:31 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 17:34 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 17:47 ` Al Viro 2013-07-16 18:12 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 18:20 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 19:29 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra 2013-07-16 19:32 ` Richard Weinberger 2013-07-16 19:03 ` Al Viro
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