From: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb@kernel.org> To: Julien Thierry <jthierry@redhat.com> Cc: Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Linux ARM <linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org>, Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@arm.com>, Will Deacon <will@kernel.org>, Masahiro Yamada <masahiroy@kernel.org>, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>, Michal Marek <michal.lkml@markovi.net>, Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@redhat.com>, Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>, Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@arm.com>, Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org>, linux-efi <linux-efi@vger.kernel.org>, linux-hardening@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 00/17] objtool: add base support for arm64 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 12:08:23 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <CAMj1kXHznGnN2UEai1c2UgyKuTFCS5SZ+qGR6VJwyCuccViw_A@mail.gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <186bb660-6e70-6bbf-4e96-1894799c79ce@redhat.com> On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 11:26, Julien Thierry <jthierry@redhat.com> wrote: > > Hi Ard, > > On 1/21/21 10:03 AM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > Hello Julien, > > > > On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 18:38, Julien Thierry <jthierry@redhat.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> This series enables objtool to start doing stack validation on arm64 > >> kernel builds. > > > > Could we elaborate on this point, please? 'Stack validation' means > > getting an accurate picture of all kernel code that will be executed > > at some point in the future, due to the fact that there are stack > > frames pointing to them. And this ability is essential in order to do > > live patching safely? > > > > If this is the goal, I wonder whether this is the right approach for > > arm64 (or for any other architecture, for that matter) > > > > Parsing/decoding the object code and even worse, relying on GCC > > plugins to annotate some of the idioms as they are being generated, in > > order to infer intent on the part of the compiler goes *way* beyond > > what we should be comfortable with. The whole point of this exercise > > is to guarantee that there are no false positives when it comes to > > deciding whether the kernel is in a live patchable state, and I don't > > see how we can ever provide such a guarantee when it is built on such > > a fragile foundation. > > > > If we want to ensure that the stack contents are always an accurate > > reflection of the real call stack, we should work with the toolchain > > folks to identify issues that may interfere with this, and implement > > controls over these behaviors that we can decide to use in the build. > > In the past, I have already proposed adding a 'kernel' code model to > > the AArch64 compiler that guarantees certain things, such as adrp/add > > for symbol references, and no GOT indirections for position > > independent code. Inhibiting optimizations that may impact our ability > > to infer the real call stack from the stack contents is something we > > might add here as well. > > > > I'm not familiar with toolcahin code models, but would this approach be > able to validate assembly code (either inline or in assembly files?) > No, it would not. But those files are part of the code base, and can be reviewed and audited. > > Another thing that occurred to me is that inferring which kernel code > > is actually live in terms of pending function returns could be > > inferred much more easily from a shadow call stack, which is a thing > > we already implement for Clang builds. > > > > I was not familiar with the shadow call stack. If I understand correctly > that would be a stack of return addresses of function currently on the > call stack, is that correct? > > That would indeed be a simpler approach, however I guess the > instrumentation has a cost. Is the instrumentation also available with > GCC? And is this instrumentation efficient enough to be suitable for > production builds? > I am not aware of any plans to enable this in GCC, but the Clang implementation is definitely intended for production use (it's a CFI feature for ROP/JOP mitigation) > If we can rely on shadow call stack to implement the reliable unwinder, > I guess this could be the way to go. > > > In summary, I would not be in favor of enabling objtool on arm64 at > > all until we have exhausted other options for providing the > > functionality that we need it for (given that objtool provides many > > other things that only x86 cares about, IIUC) > > > I understand the concern and appreciate the suggestion. I guess this > does need some thorough discussions for the right approach. > Agreed.
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb@kernel.org> To: Julien Thierry <jthierry@redhat.com> Cc: Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@arm.com>, linux-efi <linux-efi@vger.kernel.org>, Michal Marek <michal.lkml@markovi.net>, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>, Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>, Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@arm.com>, Masahiro Yamada <masahiroy@kernel.org>, Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org>, linux-hardening@vger.kernel.org, Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@redhat.com>, Will Deacon <will@kernel.org>, Linux ARM <linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org> Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 00/17] objtool: add base support for arm64 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 12:08:23 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <CAMj1kXHznGnN2UEai1c2UgyKuTFCS5SZ+qGR6VJwyCuccViw_A@mail.gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <186bb660-6e70-6bbf-4e96-1894799c79ce@redhat.com> On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 11:26, Julien Thierry <jthierry@redhat.com> wrote: > > Hi Ard, > > On 1/21/21 10:03 AM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > Hello Julien, > > > > On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 18:38, Julien Thierry <jthierry@redhat.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> This series enables objtool to start doing stack validation on arm64 > >> kernel builds. > > > > Could we elaborate on this point, please? 'Stack validation' means > > getting an accurate picture of all kernel code that will be executed > > at some point in the future, due to the fact that there are stack > > frames pointing to them. And this ability is essential in order to do > > live patching safely? > > > > If this is the goal, I wonder whether this is the right approach for > > arm64 (or for any other architecture, for that matter) > > > > Parsing/decoding the object code and even worse, relying on GCC > > plugins to annotate some of the idioms as they are being generated, in > > order to infer intent on the part of the compiler goes *way* beyond > > what we should be comfortable with. The whole point of this exercise > > is to guarantee that there are no false positives when it comes to > > deciding whether the kernel is in a live patchable state, and I don't > > see how we can ever provide such a guarantee when it is built on such > > a fragile foundation. > > > > If we want to ensure that the stack contents are always an accurate > > reflection of the real call stack, we should work with the toolchain > > folks to identify issues that may interfere with this, and implement > > controls over these behaviors that we can decide to use in the build. > > In the past, I have already proposed adding a 'kernel' code model to > > the AArch64 compiler that guarantees certain things, such as adrp/add > > for symbol references, and no GOT indirections for position > > independent code. Inhibiting optimizations that may impact our ability > > to infer the real call stack from the stack contents is something we > > might add here as well. > > > > I'm not familiar with toolcahin code models, but would this approach be > able to validate assembly code (either inline or in assembly files?) > No, it would not. But those files are part of the code base, and can be reviewed and audited. > > Another thing that occurred to me is that inferring which kernel code > > is actually live in terms of pending function returns could be > > inferred much more easily from a shadow call stack, which is a thing > > we already implement for Clang builds. > > > > I was not familiar with the shadow call stack. If I understand correctly > that would be a stack of return addresses of function currently on the > call stack, is that correct? > > That would indeed be a simpler approach, however I guess the > instrumentation has a cost. Is the instrumentation also available with > GCC? And is this instrumentation efficient enough to be suitable for > production builds? > I am not aware of any plans to enable this in GCC, but the Clang implementation is definitely intended for production use (it's a CFI feature for ROP/JOP mitigation) > If we can rely on shadow call stack to implement the reliable unwinder, > I guess this could be the way to go. > > > In summary, I would not be in favor of enabling objtool on arm64 at > > all until we have exhausted other options for providing the > > functionality that we need it for (given that objtool provides many > > other things that only x86 cares about, IIUC) > > > I understand the concern and appreciate the suggestion. I guess this > does need some thorough discussions for the right approach. > Agreed. _______________________________________________ linux-arm-kernel mailing list linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-01-21 11:14 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 106+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2021-01-20 17:37 [RFC PATCH 00/17] objtool: add base support for arm64 Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 01/17] tools: Add some generic functions and headers Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 02/17] tools: arm64: Make aarch64 instruction decoder available to tools Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 03/17] tools: bug: Remove duplicate definition Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 04/17] objtool: arm64: Add base definition for arm64 backend Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 05/17] objtool: arm64: Decode add/sub instructions Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 06/17] objtool: arm64: Decode jump and call related instructions Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 07/17] objtool: arm64: Decode other system instructions Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 08/17] objtool: arm64: Decode load/store instructions Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 09/17] objtool: arm64: Decode LDR instructions Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 10/17] objtool: arm64: Accept padding in code sections Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 11/17] efi: libstub: Ignore relocations for .discard sections Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 12/17] gcc-plugins: objtool: Add plugin to detect switch table on arm64 Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-27 22:15 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-01-27 22:15 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-01-27 23:26 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-01-27 23:26 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-01-29 18:10 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-01-29 18:10 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-01 21:44 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-01 21:44 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-01 23:17 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-01 23:17 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-02 0:02 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-02 0:02 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-02 14:24 ` David Laight 2021-02-02 14:24 ` David Laight 2021-02-02 22:33 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-02 22:33 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-02 23:36 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-02 23:36 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-02 23:52 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-02 23:52 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-02 8:57 ` Julien Thierry 2021-02-02 8:57 ` Julien Thierry 2021-02-02 23:01 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-02 23:01 ` Nick Desaulniers 2021-02-03 0:14 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-03 0:14 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-02-03 11:57 ` Peter Zijlstra 2021-02-03 11:57 ` Peter Zijlstra 2021-02-03 13:04 ` Mark Brown 2021-02-03 13:04 ` Mark Brown 2021-02-03 13:58 ` Mark Rutland 2021-02-03 13:58 ` Mark Rutland 2021-02-03 8:11 ` Julien Thierry 2021-02-03 8:11 ` Julien Thierry 2021-02-09 16:30 ` Daniel Kiss 2021-02-09 16:30 ` Daniel Kiss 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 13/17] objtool: arm64: Implement functions to add switch tables alternatives Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 14/17] objtool: arm64: Cache section with switch table information Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 15/17] objtool: arm64: Handle supported relocations in alternatives Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` [RFC PATCH 16/17] objtool: arm64: Ignore replacement section for alternative callback Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:37 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:38 ` [RFC PATCH 17/17] objtool: arm64: Enable stack validation for arm64 Julien Thierry 2021-01-20 17:38 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-21 5:39 ` kernel test robot 2021-01-21 9:03 ` [RFC PATCH 00/17] objtool: add base support " Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-21 9:03 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-21 10:26 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-21 10:26 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-21 11:08 ` Ard Biesheuvel [this message] 2021-01-21 11:08 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-21 11:23 ` Peter Zijlstra 2021-01-21 11:23 ` Peter Zijlstra 2021-01-21 11:48 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-21 11:48 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-21 18:54 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-01-21 18:54 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-01-22 17:43 ` Mark Brown 2021-01-22 17:43 ` Mark Brown 2021-01-22 17:54 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-22 17:54 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-28 22:10 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-28 22:10 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-29 15:47 ` Mark Brown 2021-01-22 21:15 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-22 21:15 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-22 21:43 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-22 21:43 ` Ard Biesheuvel 2021-01-22 21:44 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-22 21:44 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-25 21:19 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-01-25 21:19 ` Josh Poimboeuf 2021-01-22 21:16 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-22 21:16 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman 2021-01-21 13:23 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-21 13:23 ` Julien Thierry 2021-01-21 14:23 ` Mark Brown 2021-01-21 14:23 ` Mark Brown
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