ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Tihomir Heidelberg]

Hi

After few days of running 9a0tcp gateway, ax25 kernel at
9a0tcp get broken. When the problem occur, all connections
are running well, so I think that ax25_list is not broken
because ax25_find_socket and ax25_find_cb functions are doing
good work, but running netstat or cat /proc/net/ax25 will
do "segementation fault". This makes big problems to some
of my applications.

The problem occur on kernels 2.4.18, 2.4.19 and 2.4.20, but
I notice it only on 9a0tcp gateway, even am running it on
several machines. Maybe, because 9a0tcp have few times more
traffic.

I analyzed the kernel ax25 source, and I tried to find what
can make ax25_get_info function crash. I don't know much
about how kernel and sockets exactly work, but want to know
if someone have the same problem, and maybe one of kernel
guru will catch a problem.

But, what I suspect, in af_ax25.c we define a destructor for
our sockets:
         sk->destruct = ax25_free_sock;
I guess that somebody/sometimes call this destructor when
destroying a socket. I think that after that, socket cannot be
considered as valid, but as control block still exists,
shouldn't we set sk in control block to NULL ? ax25_get_info
will still find that control block with sk set to destroyed
socket, isn't it ?
I added to the end of ax25_free_sock function this line:
        sk->protinfo.ax25->sk=NULL;
and I am waiting to see if this will help.
Is there any expert that can tell me whats wrong here.

Many thanks,

73 de Tihomir Heidelberg, 9a4gl@9a0tcp.ampr.org

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Sandor Dibuz]

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Tihomir Heidelberg wrote:

> ... When the problem occur, all connections
> are running well, so I think that ax25_list is not broken
> because ax25_find_socket and ax25_find_cb functions are doing
> good work, but running netstat or cat /proc/net/ax25 will
> do "segementation fault".

> I analyzed the kernel ax25 source, and I tried to find what
> can make ax25_get_info function crash. I don't know much
> about how kernel and sockets exactly work, but want to know
> if someone have the same problem, and maybe one of kernel
> guru will catch a problem.

That would be great. I used to see this time to time on two different
systems with significant traffic load, namely that of HA3PMF and WB0TAX.
But HA5OB/Zoli also reported to experience it on his pc.

Once the system turnes to this state, modules like ax25 and netrom can not
be removed any more and usually it dies with a kernel crash in 1 or 2
days. Unless I notice in time and restart the computer but I hate doing
so. Always feel like somebody is watching, then he might believe I'm using
windows ;-)))


73... Sanyi

-- 
Dibuz Sandor  | email: ha3pg@ha3pmf.boszi.pte.hu
Pecs, Hungary | AX.25: HA3PG@HA3PG.HUN.EU | UIN: 81545608

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Stewart Wilkinson]

I am aware of several UK stations that are having lockup problems with
systems running 2.4.19 kernels (using at least 3 different Linux
Distributions). At the moment I know of just one system running 2.4.19
kernel that has been up for over 35 days.

The systems in question seem to run Ok for anything up to 12-14 days,
until they stop. Sometimes they stop with a Kernel Panic (Flashing
keyboard lamps), other times (at least in my case today) the system is
just non-responsive either to external traffic (pings over LAN etc) or to
Keyboard Input.

As far as we have determined to date the crashes all follow a pattern
where AX25 / NETROM connections start to be refused and sometime
there-after the system totally stops functioning.

-- 
Stewart (G0LGS)
g0lgs@gb7lgs.co.uk

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Tihomir Heidelberg]

Hi Sanyi,

thanks for reply, I applyed a fix explained in my post to linux-hams
and I am waiting to see if this bug will occur again....
    
please, are you interested for testing this also ? it would be also
good if ha5ob is interested... it would help me to find if it helps
or not, because it is hard to find a host with high traffic that
have this problem :)

to try it you just need to edit /usr/src/linux/net/ax25/af_ax25.c
and in function ax25_free_sock just add this line at the end:
        sk->protinfo.ax25->sk=NULL;
so, the ax25_free_sock function should look:     
static void ax25_free_sock(struct sock *sk)
{
        ax25_free_cb(sk->protinfo.ax25);
        sk->protinfo.ax25->sk=NULL;
}

of course, then you should do make modules;make modules_install
if you use ax25 in module or make install if you have it compiled
in kernel.

this should not do anything harmfull in kernel, I am quite sure :)

by my opinion, when kernel destroy an socket, there is still a pointer  
in ax25 control block that points to that destroyed socket and everytime
it access it it crash.

so, will see if this will help...

73 de Tihomir, 9a4gl@9a0tcp.ampr.org

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Kjell Jarl]

Possibly this is the same bug I have had for ages?
Running 2.4.19 right now.
Last week end, I had a netrom/ax.25 link gone mad, with about 10 packets
sent in bursts indefiniteley, the netrom queue was some 32 k. I tried
axctl -kill but it segfaulted, then reboot which failed (kernel panic).
Will try this change soon.
Thanks
Kjell, sm7gvf



Tihomir Heidelberg wrote:
> 
> Hi Sanyi,
> 
> thanks for reply, I applyed a fix explained in my post to linux-hams
> and I am waiting to see if this bug will occur again....
> 
> please, are you interested for testing this also ? it would be also
> good if ha5ob is interested... it would help me to find if it helps
> or not, because it is hard to find a host with high traffic that
> have this problem :)
> 
> to try it you just need to edit /usr/src/linux/net/ax25/af_ax25.c
> and in function ax25_free_sock just add this line at the end:
>         sk->protinfo.ax25->sk=NULL;
> so, the ax25_free_sock function should look:
> static void ax25_free_sock(struct sock *sk)
> {
>         ax25_free_cb(sk->protinfo.ax25);
>         sk->protinfo.ax25->sk=NULL;
> }
> 
> of course, then you should do make modules;make modules_install
> if you use ax25 in module or make install if you have it compiled
> in kernel.
> 
> this should not do anything harmfull in kernel, I am quite sure :)
> 
> by my opinion, when kernel destroy an socket, there is still a pointer
> in ax25 control block that points to that destroyed socket and everytime
> it access it it crash.
> 
> so, will see if this will help...
> 
> 73 de Tihomir, 9a4gl@9a0tcp.ampr.org
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[M Taylor]

On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 09:20:09PM +0100, Tihomir Heidelberg wrote:
> 
> so, the ax25_free_sock function should look:     
> static void ax25_free_sock(struct sock *sk)
> {
>         ax25_free_cb(sk->protinfo.ax25);
>         sk->protinfo.ax25->sk=NULL;
> }
> 
> of course, then you should do make modules;make modules_install
> if you use ax25 in module or make install if you have it compiled
> in kernel.
> 
> this should not do anything harmfull in kernel, I am quite sure :)

Well, it could crash your system. sk->protinfo.ax25 is kfree'ed in 
the line before it, so you are accessing invalid data...

Your suggestion wants to be equalivent to sk = NULL;,
so you should at least change it to use a valid statement.
Though I wonder if you meant sk->protinfo.ax25 = NULL;

Best Regards,
 ve1mct

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Tihomir Heidelberg]

Hi,

>> static void ax25_free_sock(struct sock *sk)
>> {
>>         ax25_free_cb(sk->protinfo.ax25);
>>         sk->protinfo.ax25->sk=NULL;
>> }
>> ...
>Well, it could crash your system. sk->protinfo.ax25 is kfree'ed in
>the line before it, so you are accessing invalid data...
>
>Your suggestion wants to be equalivent to sk = NULL;,
>so you should at least change it to use a valid statement.
>Though I wonder if you meant sk->protinfo.ax25 = NULL;

yap, you are right, this is not good. if anyone add that line,
please remove it, it can make problems.. but interesting is
that the kernel does not crash, hm...
that kfree is to short function to notice :)
I thought it does not free it beacuse it does not remove it
from ax25_list. But, after some debuging I see that control block
is removed before from ax25_list, and then ax25_free_sock is
called to clean the rest.

but, why we clean the ax25 connection in two steps ? I looked
in other protocols source and very few of them use socket
destruct... why ax25_release do not clean all ?

the problem I am trying to solve is why ax25_get_info get
crash... the one reason may be that we have dead socket in
control block of one of our connection (because other
connections are still working), and that can occur if from any
reason destructor is called without previous calling ax25_release.
Maybe there are other reasons, but just want to check if this
one is or isn't our problem.

how bad is idea to clean all for both destruct and ax25_release
in case it is not cleaned from the other one ? to me this is
not nice, but....

so, will play with it and add some debugging info and wait
to see if I can catch anything usefull.

73 de Tihomir Heidelberg, 9a4gl@9a0tcp.ampr.org

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Ralf Baechle DO1GRB]

On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 07:42:22PM +0000, Stewart Wilkinson wrote:

> I am aware of several UK stations that are having lockup problems with
> systems running 2.4.19 kernels (using at least 3 different Linux
> Distributions). At the moment I know of just one system running 2.4.19
> kernel that has been up for over 35 days.
> 
> The systems in question seem to run Ok for anything up to 12-14 days,
> until they stop. Sometimes they stop with a Kernel Panic (Flashing
> keyboard lamps), other times (at least in my case today) the system is
> just non-responsive either to external traffic (pings over LAN etc) or to
> Keyboard Input.
> 
> As far as we have determined to date the crashes all follow a pattern
> where AX25 / NETROM connections start to be refused and sometime
> there-after the system totally stops functioning.

As is the 2.4 AX.25 code is totally racy.  Basically it only has a chance
to survive if the user is nice ...

73 de DO1GRB op Ralf

--
Loc. JN47BS / CQ 14 / ITU 28 / DOK A21

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Tomi Manninen]

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Ralf Baechle DO1GRB wrote:

> As is the 2.4 AX.25 code is totally racy.  Basically it only has a chance
> to survive if the user is nice ...

This reminds me... What is the situation with your fixes? I understood the 
kernel is now in feature freeze. Will the next release kernel have a bit 
more un-racy AX.25 stack?

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Ralf Baechle DO1GRB]

On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 09:32:44PM +0200, Tomi Manninen wrote:

> > As is the 2.4 AX.25 code is totally racy.  Basically it only has a chance
> > to survive if the user is nice ...
> 
> This reminds me... What is the situation with your fixes? I understood the 
> kernel is now in feature freeze. Will the next release kernel have a bit 
> more un-racy AX.25 stack?

I consider everything I'm currently working on as pure bug fix.  As such
they're not affected by the feature freeze.

73 de DO1GRB op Ralf

--
Loc. JN47BS / CQ 14 / ITU 28 / DOK A21

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Tomi Manninen OH2BNS]

On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Ralf Baechle DO1GRB wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 09:32:44PM +0200, Tomi Manninen wrote:
> 
> > > As is the 2.4 AX.25 code is totally racy.  Basically it only has a chance
> > > to survive if the user is nice ...
> > 
> > This reminds me... What is the situation with your fixes? I understood the 
> > kernel is now in feature freeze. Will the next release kernel have a bit 
> > more un-racy AX.25 stack?
> 
> I consider everything I'm currently working on as pure bug fix.  As such
> they're not affected by the feature freeze.

Agreed.

Anyway, what is the situation now? Are there still lots of known races
unfixed in your tree?

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Ralf Baechle DO1GRB]

On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 04:09:20PM +0200, Tomi Manninen OH2BNS wrote:

> > I consider everything I'm currently working on as pure bug fix.  As such
> > they're not affected by the feature freeze.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Anyway, what is the situation now? Are there still lots of known races
> unfixed in your tree?

The whole job is much bigger than you may assume.  I've removed
SOCKOPS_WRAP which so far was forcing single threaded execution of most of
the AX.25 code.  I did that because for 2.5 the removal of SOCKOPS_WRAP
the entire kernel was on the agenda.  This didn't happen yet but I'm
removed it's use from AX.25 & Co. anyway.  As the result the entire locking
work isn't just plugging a few holes which would have been bad enough, it's
completly redoing the locking stuff from scratch.

73 de DO1GRB op Ralf

--
Loc. JN47BS / CQ 14 / ITU 28 / DOK A21

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Tomi Manninen OH2BNS]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Ralf Baechle DO1GRB wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 04:09:20PM +0200, Tomi Manninen OH2BNS wrote:
> 
> > > I consider everything I'm currently working on as pure bug fix.  As such
> > > they're not affected by the feature freeze.
> > 
> > Agreed.
> > 
> > Anyway, what is the situation now? Are there still lots of known races
> > unfixed in your tree?
> 
> The whole job is much bigger than you may assume.  I've removed
> SOCKOPS_WRAP which so far was forcing single threaded execution of most of
> the AX.25 code.  I did that because for 2.5 the removal of SOCKOPS_WRAP
> the entire kernel was on the agenda.  This didn't happen yet but I'm
> removed it's use from AX.25 & Co. anyway.  As the result the entire locking
> work isn't just plugging a few holes which would have been bad enough, it's
> completly redoing the locking stuff from scratch.

Ok, I understand. Anyway some kind of progress report would be nice. Even
something like: "don't hold your breath", if that is appropriate... :-)

I have gotten surprisingly many private queries about this lately, so to
recap what I have understood so far: the 2.4 code is bad, full of races,
works only if treated nicely. Your SOCKOPS_WRAP removal obviously makes
things even worse until you redo the locking stuff. When that is done we
have a perfect ax.25 stack again. Right? ;-)

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Ralf Baechle DO1GRB]

On Wed, Dec 11, 2002 at 12:29:12PM +0200, Tomi Manninen OH2BNS wrote:

> Ok, I understand. Anyway some kind of progress report would be nice. Even
> something like: "don't hold your breath", if that is appropriate... :-)

Holding breath is definately something that could negativly impact your
health ;-)

> I have gotten surprisingly many private queries about this lately, so to
> recap what I have understood so far: the 2.4 code is bad, full of races,
> works only if treated nicely. Your SOCKOPS_WRAP removal obviously makes
> things even worse until you redo the locking stuff. When that is done we
> have a perfect ax.25 stack again. Right? ;-)

In some sense the improments that are necessary to make the AX.25 stack
"future proof" are ridiculous.  AX.25 is about the worst protocol design
I've ran over in my life, so making a multi-threaded implementation of it
is an amusing thought.  But the other legacy protocols like Appletalk
are going through the same pain ...

73 de DO1GRB op Ralf

--
Loc. JN47BS / CQ 14 / ITU 28 / DOK A21

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[mvw]

Gents,

> [snip] AX.25 is about the worst protocol design
> I've ran over in my life

That's not encouraging. Is it really that bad?

Asking becuase TCP/IP over ax.25 is the one thing that can rescue packet, 
I think. For instance, the fact I can get my provate email in and out when 
ADSL and cable are down is a real benefit. The fact I can driva all around 
town and pick up mail with a radio connection, free of charge, is also 
very beneficial. I can have nmy servers send mail via radio with problem 
reports when prob;lems occur. Emergency use. The list of useful 1200 bps 
applications goes on!

But that asusmes the protocol is solid. My 2.0 kernel running old ax.25 
stuff has been up 4 years now without dropping a packet. Are we saying 
nowadays it's worse? Should I can my 2.4.20 kernel with ax.25?

Sorry for dropping in in the middle!

Michael VA3MVW

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Jeroen Vreeken]

On 2002.12.11 14:36:25 +0100 mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> Gents,
> 
> > [snip] AX.25 is about the worst protocol design
> > I've ran over in my life
> 
> That's not encouraging. Is it really that bad?
> 
> Asking becuase TCP/IP over ax.25 is the one thing that can rescue packet,

I think he was refering to ax.25 connections, tcp/ip is generally done in
UI frames, for those ax25 is not much different from e.g. ethernet.

On a side note:
What is the state of netrom? I have had only ax25 races with 2.4, netrom
seems to be stable (or atleast stable enough to let ax25 crash first :)
I am curious to what will need to change to netrom because I would have to
update my inp3 patch to it...

Jeroen

Re: ax25 kernel problem sometimes accur

[Curt Mills, WE7U]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> Asking becuase TCP/IP over ax.25 is the one thing that can rescue packet,
> I think. For instance, the fact I can get my provate email in and out when
> ADSL and cable are down is a real benefit. The fact I can driva all around
> town and pick up mail with a radio connection, free of charge, is also
> very beneficial. I can have nmy servers send mail via radio with problem
> reports when prob;lems occur. Emergency use. The list of useful 1200 bps
> applications goes on!

Firenet just went through some of this along the east coast, where
one gentleman was at his activated EOC, getting weather reports from
firenet using ham tcp/ip when all other access was down.  These were
the only weather reports they were able to get at the time during
the ice storms they had back there.  He requested a special firenet
feed for a 150 mile radius centered on the EOC location in order to
keep the number of packets small.

-- 
Curt Mills, WE7U                    hacker_NO_SPAM_@tc.fluke.com
Senior Methods Engineer/SysAdmin
"Lotto:    A tax on people who are bad at math!"
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates!" -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

Success! TWO questions remain

[mvw]

I got it working, new 2.4.20 kernel, different PC, all OK. But a couple 
of questions remain.

(And a side note: On this machine too, /dev/ttyS0 appeared dead. But at
least it has two, and /dev/ttyS1 is just fine, so that is what I use. Not
an ax25 problem btw, but odd.)

Anyway. I did this:

1. Installed RedHat 8 
   Custom install.

2. updated Redhat using up2date

3. Recompiled 2.4.20 kernel
   Config ax25 on
   Serial port kiss on
   (SCSI support off (or it would not makedeps))

4. Installed from tarballs:
   libax25
   ax25tools
   ax25apps
   ...according to AX25-HOWTO

5. edited two /etc/ax25 files:
   ax25ports
   rc.ax25

   The first has:

   # /etc/ax25/axports
   r1  VA3MVW  9600  255  2  145.59MHz TCP/IP port


   The second one has this, and I call it at the end of rc.local:

   #rc.ax25
   /usr/sbin/kissattach /dev/ttyS1 r1 44.135.90.48

   # direct to myself via loopback:
   /sbin/route add 44.135.90.48 lo

   # Direct to area gateway port.ve3mch:
   /sbin/route add 44.135.85.30 ax0

   # Let all other 44 (ampr) routes go via there:
   /sbin/route add -net 44.0.0.0 gw 44.135.85.30 netmask 255.0.0.0

   # Direct to me at home:
   /sbin/route add 44.135.90.46 ax0

   /usr/sbin/mheardd


So now I have the following two questions.

1. I have set up TCP/IP OK, and I can ping/send mail/etc; but 
   what about native ax25? Do I need to do anything? How can I check?

2. My ROUTE table shows TWO routes to 44./class A subnet! My previous ax25 
box did not do this and the route commands ar ethe same. The route 
commands in the rc.ax25 script above give me this:

[root@jeeves ax25]# route
Kernel IP routing table
Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use 
Iface
port.ve3mch.amp *               255.255.255.255 UH    0      0        0 
ax0
va3mvw.ampr.org *               255.255.255.255 UH    0      0        0 lo
va3oak.ampr.org *               255.255.255.255 UH    0      0        0 
ax0
216.138.207.128 *               255.255.255.224 U     0      0        0 
eth0
127.0.0.0       *               255.0.0.0       U     0      0        0 lo
44.0.0.0        port.ve3mch.amp 255.0.0.0       UG    0      0        0 
ax0
44.0.0.0        *               255.0.0.0       U     0      0        0 
ax0
default         216.138.207.129 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 
eth0



What is that second 44.0.0.0 doing there?? ANy ideas?


Cheers
Michael VA3MVW

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[mvw]

Hello all,

Wonder if anyone saw my previous message?

In any case, another question. I want to be able to telnet into one
machine from another using radio. Encryption is forbidden for amateur use
so this means clear passwords. Not good. (Even though I will not use root, 
of course).

BUT, compression _is_ allowed. How can I get the tcp/ip content to be 
compressed, so it is at least not easily readable?

Thanks,
Michael

PS plus, how can I get telnet to accept connections only on its radio 
port? This is a generalLinux question but if anyone happens to know the 
answer?

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 08:16:22AM -0500, mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> Wonder if anyone saw my previous message?
> 
> In any case, another question. I want to be able to telnet into one
> machine from another using radio. Encryption is forbidden for amateur use
> so this means clear passwords. Not good. (Even though I will not use root, 
> of course).
> 
> BUT, compression _is_ allowed. How can I get the tcp/ip content to be 
> compressed, so it is at least not easily readable?

Compression is still hiding the data and I would say breaks the rules.
Better solution: use SSH. You can have public key authentication (no
cleartext passwords) without any encryption or compression.

> PS plus, how can I get telnet to accept connections only on its radio 
> port? This is a generalLinux question but if anyone happens to know the 
> answer?

telnetd usually starts from inetd, but inetd doesn't seem to have a way
to only listen on certain interfaces. You could use TCP wrappers (ie
/etc/hosts.{allow,deny}) to limit the IP addresses which are allowed to
connect to ones which you know will be on the radio interface.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[cyberdoc]

Hello,

You can firewall off port 23 on your internet interface... telnet won't be 
disabled, but the packets will never reach the daemon (service) for 
processing.  Turn off port 23 on all LAN based connections, and keep it 
open on the ax interfaces.

This means you need to run either ipchains or iptables.  I can help you 
with either if you wish.

Christian


On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> Wonder if anyone saw my previous message?
> 
> In any case, another question. I want to be able to telnet into one
> machine from another using radio. Encryption is forbidden for amateur use
> so this means clear passwords. Not good. (Even though I will not use root, 
> of course).
> 
> BUT, compression _is_ allowed. How can I get the tcp/ip content to be 
> compressed, so it is at least not easily readable?
> 
> Thanks,
> Michael
> 
> PS plus, how can I get telnet to accept connections only on its radio 
> port? This is a generalLinux question but if anyone happens to know the 
> answer?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Margaret Leber]

Hamish Moffatt wrote:

> Compression is still hiding the data and I would say breaks the rules.
> Better solution: use SSH. You can have public key authentication (no
> cleartext passwords) without any encryption or compression.

Is encrypting even a password permitted outside of control of space 
stations?

  73 de Maggie K3XS

-- 
-----/___.   _)   Margaret Stephanie Leber    / "The art of progress  /
----/(, /|  /| http://voicenet.com/~maggie   / consists of preserving/
---/   / | / |  _   _   _    `  _AOPA 925383/ order amid change and /
--/ ) /  |/  |_(_(_(_/_(_/__(__(/_  FN20hd / change amid order."   /
-/ (_/   '  K3XS  .-/ .-/    ARRL 39280   /___ --A.N.Whitehead ___/
/____ICQ 7161096_(_/_(_/__AMSAT 32844____/ <maggie@voicenet.com>

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Curt Mills, WE7U]

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Hamish Moffatt wrote:

> Compression is still hiding the data and I would say breaks the rules.
> Better solution: use SSH. You can have public key authentication (no
> cleartext passwords) without any encryption or compression.

Make sure to carefully set up SSH to do encrypted authentication but
clear-text everything else.  By default it encrypts everything going
across the pipe.

-- 
Curt Mills, WE7U                    hacker_NO_SPAM_@tc.fluke.com
Senior Methods Engineer/SysAdmin
"Lotto:    A tax on people who are bad at math!"
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates!" -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Curt Mills, WE7U]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Margaret Leber wrote:

> Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>
> > Compression is still hiding the data and I would say breaks the rules.
> > Better solution: use SSH. You can have public key authentication (no
> > cleartext passwords) without any encryption or compression.
>
> Is encrypting even a password permitted outside of control of space
> stations?

As I understand it, it's allowed in the U.S. for authentication
purposes (passwords), but not for hiding the rest of the text.
Can't speak for other countries rules.

Compression is also allowed as long as it's a well accepted and
documented protocol that's in use.  In other words, it's purpose is
for getting more data through a smaller pipe rather than obscuring
the meaning of the data.  One should be able to grab the data and
de-compress it, assuming they have the technical know-how to do so.

As with anything, you'll still get arguments both ways on both
authentication and compression issues.  See what the TCP/IP guys are
doing on RF.  They use encrypted authentication at times, and
commonly accepted compression as well.

-- 
Curt Mills, WE7U                    hacker_NO_SPAM_@tc.fluke.com
Senior Methods Engineer/SysAdmin
"Lotto:    A tax on people who are bad at math!"
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates!" -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Ken Koster]

On Thursday 12 December 2002 07:25, Margaret Leber wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > Compression is still hiding the data and I would say breaks the rules.

Compression is not breaking the rules and hasn't been for a long time.
NOS, JNOS, FBB and others all use compression for forwarding mail and
it's perfectly legal.  We've been doing this now for more than a decade.

> > Better solution: use SSH. You can have public key authentication (no
> > cleartext passwords) without any encryption or compression.

SSH does do encryption and optionally can do compression as well.  From
the SSH man page " It (ssh) is intended to replace rlogin and rsh, and 
provide secure encrypted communications between two untrusted hosts over an 
insecure network."

> Is encrypting even a password permitted outside of control of space
> stations?

Passwords for the purpose of remote control (repeaters, remote packet 
systems etc.) have been legally used for a long time.  With the advent of
Linux lots of us have been using SSH to control and administer remote
packet sites.  While the fact that SSH also encrypts the rest of your 
communication besides the password might be considered by some to be
a violation, most of us consider that traffic to also be part of 'control' 
and in all the years we've been doing this the FCC has never disabused
any of us of that idea. :-)

>
>   73 de Maggie K3XS

Ken,  N7IPB
http://wetnet.net

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Kelly Black]

On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 11:27, Curt Mills, WE7U wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Margaret Leber wrote:
> 
> > Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> >
> > > Compression is still hiding the data and I would say breaks the rules.
> > > Better solution: use SSH. You can have public key authentication (no
> > > cleartext passwords) without any encryption or compression.
> >
> > Is encrypting even a password permitted outside of control of space
> > stations?
> 

How about using OPIE: (One time use passwords with server / client and
no need for encryption).

http://packages.debian.org/stable/admin/opie-server.html
http://packages.debian.org/stable/admin/opie-client.html
http://packages.debian.org/unstable/libs/libpam-opie.html

Kelly Black
KB0GBJ

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Ken Koster]

On Thursday 12 December 2002 07:25, Margaret Leber wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt wrote:

And I wrote and sent with a typical US centric view without thinking that
Hamish is not in the US.  Take what I said with the appropriate slant.
:-)
Ken,  N7IPB

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Michael Willems]

Well, I am in Canada as well - but we are broadly the same as US. 
Encryption forbidden, compression allowed.

Mike VA3MVW

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Ken Koster wrote:

> On Thursday 12 December 2002 07:25, Margaret Leber wrote:
> > Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> 
> And I wrote and sent with a typical US centric view without thinking that
> Hamish is not in the US.  Take what I said with the appropriate slant.
> :-)
> Ken,  N7IPB
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

And another question

[Michael Willems]

Good discussion about encryption, please keep it going :)

Meanwhile another question, and I do apologise for all the traffic.

Every time I ping another node it fails the first time, then works the 
2nd time.

E.g. from va3mvw.ampr.org I ping va3oak.ampr.org. Both are on my local 
radio frequency and I have direct routes from one to the other and 
vice-versa.

The first time, instead of a ping (ICMP echo request), my node send a 
packet "from VA3MVW to QST". That results in no replies, so in the shell I 
see "no route to host".

If I ping again immediately, it DOES send the echo request, and gets back 
an echo ack from the other side, and all is OK< the ping works.

What beginner's mistake am I making? DNS sounds likely but no, I am 
pinging IP's, not names. So what else am I overlooking?

Thanks for your indulgence again, and thanks for any help!

Michael VA3MVW

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Tomi Manninen]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Ken Koster wrote:

> SSH does do encryption and optionally can do compression as well.  From
> the SSH man page " It (ssh) is intended to replace rlogin and rsh, and 
> provide secure encrypted communications between two untrusted hosts over an 
> insecure network."

SSH at least used to have a cipher option "none" that disables all 
encryption. It might require recompiling as the option is typically 
disabled to protect people who don't understand what it means...

I have used it many times combined with RSA authentication and compression 
and I always felt safe about not breaking the rules here in Finland. Of 
course I might have been wrong all the time... :)

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: And another question

[Tomi Manninen]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Michael Willems wrote:

> The first time, instead of a ping (ICMP echo request), my node send a 
> packet "from VA3MVW to QST". That results in no replies, so in the shell I 
> see "no route to host".

These are ARP packets (Address Resolution Protocol, mapping IP-numbers to 
hardware addresses ie. callsigns).

Chances are your ARP timings are too aggressive, they usually are by 
default. This causes it to time out and report "no route" to you.

> If I ping again immediately, it DOES send the echo request, and gets back 
> an echo ack from the other side, and all is OK< the ping works.

It would seem that the other system does indeed reply to the ARP query
while you are not watching anymore but not in time for the first ping to
succeed. The second time it's cached so everything works.

Two options. First, set up a static ARP entry. This is practical if your 
neighbors are very few and static ie. don't change things like their 
callsign-ssid's very often. The syntax is something like this:

 arp -H ax25 -i <ifname> -s <ipaddr> <callsign>

Second option is to tweak the timings. I prefer this and have this in my 
startup script:

 # ARP timings
 #
 PROCPATH=/proc/sys/net/ipv4/neigh/${IFNAME}
 echo 5          > ${PROCPATH}/mcast_solicit		# 5 retries
 echo 500        > ${PROCPATH}/retrans_time		# 5 sec intervals
 echo 1800       > ${PROCPATH}/base_reachable_time

For further info, see /usr/src/linux/Documentation/filesystems/proc.txt 
under "Network Neighbor handling".

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 09:27:40AM -0800, Curt Mills, WE7U wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Margaret Leber wrote:
> > Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > > Better solution: use SSH. You can have public key authentication (no
> > > cleartext passwords) without any encryption or compression.
> >
> > Is encrypting even a password permitted outside of control of space
> > stations?
> 
> As I understand it, it's allowed in the U.S. for authentication
> purposes (passwords), but not for hiding the rest of the text.
> Can't speak for other countries rules.

With SSH set up for a private and public key pair, you aren't even
exchanging encrypted passwords. 

The remote machine has your public key, and you have your private key. 
The remote machine gives you something to encrypt using the private key 
and send back to it (a challenge). If you don't have the private key it 
is impossible to meet its challenge. If somebody else had the private
key they could provide the proper response too.


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 09:34:49AM -0800, Ken Koster wrote:
> On Thursday 12 December 2002 07:25, Margaret Leber wrote:
> > Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > > Compression is still hiding the data and I would say breaks the rules.
> 
> Compression is not breaking the rules and hasn't been for a long time.
> NOS, JNOS, FBB and others all use compression for forwarding mail and
> it's perfectly legal.  We've been doing this now for more than a decade.

OK, my mistake. However I was under the impression that the original
poster was actually looking for a way to obscure his communications,
which the regulations don't allow.

> packet sites.  While the fact that SSH also encrypts the rest of your 
> communication besides the password might be considered by some to be

That can be disabled.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Jack Zielke]

I believe that OPIE is really what you are looking for.  I know this was
mentioned before but seriously look at it.  One Time Passwords.  I have this
enabled for login (console), ftp, telnet and ssh.  I am using S/Key myself but
you can find opie where the previous poster mentioned for their distro and you
can find it in the folder 'extra/ham/login' in mine. =]

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/slackware/slackware-8.1/extra/ham/login/

Setup opie, make a login that *must* use it, and open up telnet over the air. 
No encryption goes over the airwaves.  Anyone that watches you log in will not
be able to follow in your footsteps.

Jack

listen, permissions

[mvw]

All,

Bear with me one more time with beginner's questions...

I see I have to be root to use the "listen" app. Since listen has 755
permissions, why can I not run it as a normal user?

Also I see some apps have changed since the (excellent) AX25-Howto was
written (e.g.  ttylinkd is new). Where's the best place to find new (if
there are any!) ham radio Linux software?

Many thx all
73 Michael VA3MVW

Re: listen, permissions

[Luc Langehegermann]

On Saturday 14 December 2002 16:35, mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> All,
>
> Bear with me one more time with beginner's questions...
>
> I see I have to be root to use the "listen" app. Since listen has 755
> permissions, why can I not run it as a normal user?

Ass listen 'sniffs' the network devices, it need to run as root. I know - this 
is not really precise, so someone correct me.

>
> Also I see some apps have changed since the (excellent) AX25-Howto was
> written (e.g.  ttylinkd is new). Where's the best place to find new (if
> there are any!) ham radio Linux software?

Take a look at http://radio.linux.org.au

>
> Many thx all
> 73 Michael VA3MVW
>

73, Luc, LX2GT

Re: listen, permissions

[mvw]

Luc,

> Ass listen 'sniffs' the network devices, it need to run as root. I know - this 
> is not really precise, so someone correct me.

OK, makes sense (it is a promiscuous mode interface!). But what did I do
on my old 2.0 kernel system (my 486, which has been up forever!) to allow
it there?

Thanks for the link too. 

This is still fun.

Michael

Re: listen, permissions

[Dennis Boone]

 > I see I have to be root to use the "listen" app. Since listen has 755
 > permissions, why can I not run it as a normal user?

Any user can run the program (file permissions), but only root is
allowed to perform the needed network operations (kernel behavior).

 > Also I see some apps have changed since the (excellent) AX25-Howto was
 > written (e.g.  ttylinkd is new). Where's the best place to find new
 > (if there are any!) ham radio Linux software?

Make sure you're looking at this version of the HOWTO:

    http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/AX25-HOWTO/

There's a much older one still in circulation.

Lots of software isn't in the HOWTO, since it focuses on the basic
transport.  The hamsoft database at radio.linux.org.au list a lot of
stuff, though its links are often out of date.  Google is your friend,
both for finding unlisted stuff, and for re-locating the lost hamstuff
items.  If you're looking for something specific, asking here would be
a good thing to try also.

Dennis Boone
KB8ZQZ

Re: listen, permissions

[Tomi Manninen]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> > Ass listen 'sniffs' the network devices, it need to run as root. I know - this 
> > is not really precise, so someone correct me.
> 
> OK, makes sense (it is a promiscuous mode interface!). But what did I do
> on my old 2.0 kernel system (my 486, which has been up forever!) to allow
> it there?

Earlier, listen was by default installed with the SUID bit set and so any
user could run it with root privileges. As this is considered somewhat
dangerous (a bug in listen could allow a local root compromise), ax25-apps
was changed not to do this. So now it is up to each sysop to enable it if
needed. You can do this as root:

 chown root /usr/bin/listen	# if not already...
 chmod u+s /usr/bin/listen

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: listen, permissions

[Curt Mills, WE7U]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> Also I see some apps have changed since the (excellent) AX25-Howto was
> written (e.g.  ttylinkd is new). Where's the best place to find new (if
> there are any!) ham radio Linux software?

APRS Software:  http://www.xastir.org

Run the development versions.  They're very stable.  "Stable"
version is much too old now.  "Development" versions come out about
every two weeks.  CVS version changes almost every day.  New enough
for you?

-- 
Curt Mills, WE7U                    hacker_NO_SPAM_@tc.fluke.com
Senior Methods Engineer/SysAdmin
"Lotto:    A tax on people who are bad at math!"
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates!" -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

Re: Success! TWO questions remain

[Thomas Osterried]

> In any case, another question. I want to be able to telnet into one
> machine from another using radio. Encryption is forbidden for amateur use
> so this means clear passwords. Not good. (Even though I will not use root, 
> of course).

the cleartext passwort for becoming root may be ommited with this
littel tool, on
http://x-berg.in-berlin.de/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ampr/root/
(downloading the tarball (link on the bottom of the page is suggested)).

it does md5-password challenge in the standard way as bbs password
protection wroks.
this is some kind of one-way-password mechanism, and it does not matter
that anyone reads your answer string.

be aware that your ax25 connections with your PID=text session or
your ax25.ip.tcp telnet session _may_ be "overtaken" by someone else.

73,
	- thomas  dl9sau

BBS - recommendations?

[mvw]

Hello all,

I want a simple message system on my packet boxes. Either ax.25 based or 
TCP/IP based.

I do not need heavy all-encompassing OS-like systems - all I want is a 
simple BBS-style system. Any recomemndations for what works well for you 
all, and is simple to install and maintain?

Background: I already have the system itself and ax.25 and TCP/IP over 
ax.25 working. Just need a BBS on top!

Michael

Re: BBS - recommendations?

[Michael Melanson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm sure there's real software out there for just this purpose, but you could 
always roll your own. In fact, I don't think it would be that hard to make a 
simple message system. If you treat the ax.25 device as a TTY, then you can 
bind agetty to the device, and make the BBS software be the shell when they 
login.

Cheers

- -- 
Michael Melanson VE3MTM
ve3mtm@rac.ca
73 33
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE+AUQhxg/UNuqCTUsRAmVnAJ9rYTdJYLCdx8eYKuGOmmehsJatswCgi2RV
UCXPbyvDnmcYA7RANSlbM3w=
=rKzO
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Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[mvw]

Hi all,

OK, I have another all- new machine ready to go online. Redhat 8 with
Custom kernel (2.4.20 with ax25 and kiss compiled in), two serial ports,
routing for my two IPs, and so on. An as-new P133 with 64 MB and no cpu
fan - perfect for many years of reliable radio use. 

(My server 'hambox' has been up for years - 371 days since the last reboot 
for regular dust-cleaning.)

Now, I asked before but forget the answers. Forgive me for asking again:

a) I should know this, but how can I get telnet to only work on the radio 
ports and not on the ethernet port? I.e. telnet (unencrypted) only from 
the ax25 ports.

b) I use tcp/ip for mail etc. But apart from that I would like to set up a 
simple messaging system/bbs, to use when someone goes to this system using 
ax25. I do not need "do it all" systems, just a simple bbs (and it's a 
1200 bps port, so a simple one with little text would be great). 
Suggestions, all?

Many thanks for your indulgence.

73
Michael VA3MVW

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Wilbert Knol]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> ports and not on the ethernet port? I.e. telnet (unencrypted) only from 
> the ax25 ports.

Use the 'route' command. Make the radio port the default interface. 
All IP traffic will, from then on, use that port.

> 
> b) I use tcp/ip for mail etc. But apart from that I would like to set up a 
> simple messaging system/bbs, to use when someone goes to this system using 
> ax25. I do not need "do it all" systems, just a simple bbs (and it's a 

Consider using 'ax25d' to start up the 'mail' program, allowing people 
to send and receive local E-mail.

HTH...

Wilbert, ZL2BSJ

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[mvw]

Hello again all,

> > b) I use tcp/ip for mail etc. But apart from that I would like to set up a 
> > simple messaging system/bbs, to use when someone goes to this system using 
> > ax25. I do not need "do it all" systems, just a simple bbs 
> 
> Consider using 'ax25d' to start up the 'mail' program, allowing people 
> to send and receive local E-mail.

Mmm... perhaps, though maybe 'mail' is a bit TOO simple, as it requires a
bit of user knowledge, and machine-level user accounts (AFAIK) for all
users.

Anyone ever use the other BBS- (not smtp-) type message systems? I see all
sorts here and there but have no idea which ones are simple and still
work. I suppose I can try them all out, but that will no doubt require a
lot of hours spent.

(I seem to be less than stellarly successful with this. E.g. I cannot even
get _local_ "talk" working: enabled it in xinetd but still refuses
connections. Let alone do it from ax25. ALso, how do I create some 
loopback link for testing?).

73, Merry Christmas all,

Michael

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Tomi Manninen]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> a) I should know this, but how can I get telnet to only work on the radio 
> ports and not on the ethernet port? I.e. telnet (unencrypted) only from 
> the ax25 ports.

RH uses by default xinetd so this should be easy. The directory 
/etc/xinetd.d/ has all the config stuff. Creative use of the "bind" and 
"only_from" keywords should solve this for you.

Just as an example I have on our club BBS a setup where a telnet to one of
amprnet IP's assigned to that box goes to LinuxNode and another to the FBB
BBS. A telnet to the "commercial" IP address goes to a regular Linux login
(well, would go if it were enabled -- of course only SSH is allowed over
the Net). And these are all at the default telnet port (23).

> b) I use tcp/ip for mail etc. But apart from that I would like to set up a 
> simple messaging system/bbs, to use when someone goes to this system using 
> ax25. I do not need "do it all" systems, just a simple bbs (and it's a 
> 1200 bps port, so a simple one with little text would be great). 
> Suggestions, all?

Other than a full FBB BBS, not really. Hessu started writing something to 
this extent but I think that was never finished.

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[mvw]

Tomi,

[Telnet?]
> /etc/xinetd.d/ has all the config stuff. Creative use of the "bind" and 
> "only_from" keywords should solve this for you.

OK, will look for those keywords in the readmes etc.

[BBS?]
> Other than a full FBB BBS, not really.

OK. WIll try that then. If any hints for me (compiling on 2.4.20 kernel),
let me know - otherwise I'll just try. (I already see that it is NOT a
simple ./configure, make, make install!!)

73 and Merry Christmas

Michael
VA3MVW

fbb compile

[mvw]

Thank god for the Internet and for google! 

Of course fbb failed the make. 

But in a post I found somewhere, Tomi Manninen wrote:
> Bottom line: you need to remove any lines that include linux kernel 
> include files (ie. #include <linux/xxx.h>).

...and now it makes fine.

Michael

FBB...

[mvw]

OK, pity, but FBB is deleted. I have never seen a worse install in my
life, of any software! Apart from the edits needed before it will even
compile, there are no instructions (the README just says to 'make' and
enjoy), and the scripts included give nothing but fatal errors. Plus the
English is bad, but that is not the author's fault, and the licensing is 
odd (not GPL: it asks not to make changes)..

So I am glad it works for some of you, but for me this is such low
standard software that I have deleted it.

Any ideas for other systems like this, then?

Michael

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Steve Fraser]

Hi All

 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

>I would like to set up a
> > simple messaging system/bbs, to use when someone goes to this system
using
> > ax25. I do not need "do it all" systems, just a simple bbs (and it's a
> > 1200 bps port, so a simple one with little text would be great).
> > Suggestions, all?
>
and Tomi responded:

> Other than a full FBB BBS, not really. Hessu started writing something to
> this extent but I think that was never finished.
>
I havent used it myself, but awznode by Stefano Noferi  IZ5AWZ  seemed to
have simple mail capability, passwords etc. It grew out of the normal "node"
program so should be fairly familiar.

The reference I found was  ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/ham/packet/linux/awznode/

73 and Merry Xmas to all

Steve, vk5asf

Kernel compile option?

[Vivi Kusumo]

Hi all,

I am compiling the kernel and using sound card
CMI8738, before that I need a confirmation for the
kernel compile option.

According <http://tldp.org/HOWTO/AX25-HOWTO/x495.html>
6.1.6. Creating a user-mode Soundmodem device
..
Thomas Sailer has written a sound modem driver that
runs in user-mode using the kernel sound drivers, so
it should work with any sound card supported under
Linux.
..
The driver is implemented as the user-mode program
soundmodem. The graphical soundmodemconfig program
allows configuring and testing the soundmodem driver.
As well as kernel sound support you need the kernel
AX.25 mkiss driver.
..

Should I do the following for the kernel compile
option?:
SOUND
  (*)y  ( )m  ( )n  Sound card support
  ..
  ..
  ( )y  (*)m  ( )n  C-Media PCI (CMI8338/8738)
  ..
  ..
  (* )y  ( )m  ( )n  Support CMI8738 based audio card
  ..
  ..
Or any other option is better?

Many thanks for any assistance.
Vivi




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Re: FBB...

[Cees Tool]

Hi,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <mvw@mvw.net>


> OK, pity, but FBB is deleted. I have never seen a worse install in my
> life, of any software! Apart from the edits needed before it will even
> compile, there are no instructions (the README just says to 'make' and
> enjoy), and the scripts included give nothing but fatal errors. Plus the

Hmm...
Why are you the first with this report ? 


Merry XMAS
Cees - PA3AES

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Wilbert Knol]

> I havent used it myself, but awznode by Stefano Noferi  IZ5AWZ  seemed to
> have simple mail capability, passwords etc. It grew out of the normal "node"
> program so should be fairly familiar.

It has an 's <sysop_callsign>' command for sending mail to the sysop. 
The sysop gets to see it as E-mail. But it's one way only. There is no 
'r' command for the user to read a reply. No 3rd party mail. 

AWZnode is really an on-demand loading node (very good), not a PMS or 
BBS.

What I do here for a PMS is, to tell users to reconnect to my AWZnode 
and leave me an E-mail with 's', or drop me a line at the local BBS. 
LinPac then downloads it on the hour. Sorry, I can't be more 
helpful...

With regards to the 'talk' problem somebody mentioned, make sure that 
'mesg y' is executed on the terminal you want to talk to. I have it in my 
.bash_profile


Wilbert, ZL2BSJ

Re: FBB...

[Joop Stakenborg]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:13:14 -0500 (EST)
mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> OK, pity, but FBB is deleted. I have never seen a worse install in my
> life, of any software! Apart from the edits needed before it will even
> compile, there are no instructions (the README just says to 'make' and
> enjoy), and the scripts included give nothing but fatal errors. Plus the
> English is bad, but that is not the author's fault, and the licensing is 
> odd (not GPL: it asks not to make changes)..
> 

I think you are wrong in several ways. The times I have set up 
fbb have been easy. Included is a scipt which you run, which creates
all the needed directories and creates a default setup. I have
rarely encountered a similar piece of complex software which is
so easy to set up.

The english is certainly not bad and the licensing has been GPL
for over a year now.


> So I am glad it works for some of you, but for me this is such low
> standard software that I have deleted it.
> 

Low standard software? Can you explain to me why it is used all over
the world by almost every bbs?


> Any ideas for other systems like this, then?
> 

Yeah, build your own if you can't find what you want.

> Michael
> 
> 
> 

Joop

Re: FBB...

[mvw]

Joop,

[F6FBB not very useable]
> I think you are wrong in several ways. The times I have set up 
> fbb have been easy. Included is a scipt which you run

But not instructions: they are only on the web site, and even there they
are old and do not fit the software... took me an hour to see I had to run
that script. How about a simple readme that mentions this? These are the 
very basics of software!

I must mention, I downloaded the tar.gz, not the rpm: I run a too-modern
RedHat for that. Alas, there is no standard "./configure, make, make
install", and the bbs when it does come up is mysterious, needs obscure
text files edited, and displays Toulouse stuff by default...

> The english is certainly not bad and the licensing has been GPL
> for over a year now.

But the readme urges users to not make changes on their own. Surely that's 
not GPL?

> Low standard software? Can you explain to me why it is used all over
> the world by almost every bbs?

I would say, because there appears to be nothing else.

> Yeah, build your own if you can't find what you want.

Ah, that's why I am asking here.

73 de Michael va3mvw

Re: FBB...

[mvw]

Joop,
> 
> ...the licensing has been GPL for over a year now.

Not to argue, but check http://ftp.f6fbb.org/fbbdoc/doccopyr.htm

This is definitely not GPL:

"This software is delivered at no cost and is free of all charges. It can
be freely copied or installed for any HAM-RADIO application. Any other
usage for commercial, professional, or industrial purposes is forbidden.
Despite the free sharing nature of this product, a participation to the
investment and to the mailing cost at the level of 100 FF or 20 US Dollars
(or more) would be most welcome."

73,
Michael

Re: Kernel compile option?

[Tomi Manninen]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Vivi Kusumo wrote:

> The driver is implemented as the user-mode program
> soundmodem. The graphical soundmodemconfig program
> allows configuring and testing the soundmodem driver.
> As well as kernel sound support you need the kernel
> AX.25 mkiss driver.
> 
> Should I do the following for the kernel compile
> option?:

You simply need working sound card support so what ever gets your "xmms"  
or whatever working should suffice.

Note however that not all soundcards have good enough drivers to be used 
with soundmodem. Soundmodem requires a bit more from the drivers than 
usual. You will have to test if your card works. Fortunately I think most 
cards/drivers work just fine.

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: FBB...

[Tomi Manninen]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> OK, pity, but FBB is deleted. I have never seen a worse install in my
> life, of any software! Apart from the edits needed before it will even
> compile, there are no instructions (the README just says to 'make' and
> enjoy), and the scripts included give nothing but fatal errors. Plus the

FBB is not the easiest software to set up, I admit. Most of 
the documentation at http://www.f6fbb.org/fbbdoc/doc.htm still applies to 
the latest version but the Linux specific stuff is not well documented.

You should read all the doc files from the source package: README, INFO, 
FBBTREE and especially CHANGES!

> English is bad, but that is not the author's fault, and the licensing is 
> odd (not GPL: it asks not to make changes)..

It has been changed to real GPL some time ago. See the COPYING file 
included in the source. Unfortunately there are references to the old 
licence here and there...

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: FBB...

[Cees Tool]

----- Original Message -----
From: <mvw@mvw.net>

> This is definitely not GPL:
>
....
> are old and do not fit the software... took me an hour to see I had to run
> that script. How about a simple readme that mentions this? These are the
> very basics of software!
....
>Alas, there is no standard "./configure, make, make
>install", and the bbs when it does come up is mysterious, needs obscure
>text files edited, and displays Toulouse stuff by default...

Wow !
The source-tree of the latest version I have here (7.04h) has all these
things in it.

There is a file "COPYING" with the GPL license in it, there are several
readme-files how you should compile the code,  there is no "configure"
needed, you should only check if the path of the ax25-utils/libraries
differs from the standard path and change it if needed. Then you can type
"make"  and after that "make install" and the installation script will
install everything in the right directory's and asks your station details.
If you answer all questions, you will end up with a working installation.
(and there is absolutely no need to remove include files from the source)

Looking in the sourcecode tree for a file called README or INFO only costs 1
minute of your time. (and is probably less then the time it took to write
about "bad sofware")

If all of this is too difficult for you, please do not even try to install
it. Probably the normal daily sysop work would also be too difficult ....

73
Cees

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Steve Fraser]

Hi All,

I wrote:
>
> > I havent used it myself, but awznode by Stefano Noferi  IZ5AWZ  seemed
to
> > have simple mail capability, passwords etc. It grew out of the normal
"node"
> > program so should be fairly familiar.
>
and Wilbert replied:

> It has an 's <sysop_callsign>' command for sending mail to the sysop.
> The sysop gets to see it as E-mail. But it's one way only. There is no
> 'r' command for the user to read a reply.

I downloaded a copy of it. From the README file:
"Other features:
- local users of the linux machine can be granted access to the mailreader
  and optionally to the shell. ...............(bits omitted)
  Users with the mail option enabled will receive messages like "New mail
  has arrived", mostly when the stated condition is met ;-)
- all users can send messages to a callsign associated in the kernel table
  with a linux username ("send" command)."

This may be a new feature in the v0.4-pre2 version I downloaded.

>No 3rd party mail.
>
I think that is still true

> AWZnode is really an on-demand loading node (very good), not a PMS or
> BBS.
>
It seems to be evolving into a PMS, going by what I've seen in the above.

regards

Steve

Re: FBB...

[mvw]

Cees,

Although I detect a tone of disrespect in your reply, which I 
think is uncalled for among amateurs, I will answer seriously.

To answer your point, no, the normal sysadmin work is not too difficult;  
although as the CTO of a tech company, I generally have other people do
it. But if it WERE too difficult, I would assume you would be happy to 
help, as I would be happy to help too.

Now, I have the previous version, namely 7.03, because that is the last
one I can find on the fbb site "last versions" page as source. As far as
I can see, 7.04 is only available as rpm. And I am assuming 
http://www.f6fbb.org/ is the authoritative source. If I am misreading the 
site or just not looking right, please tell me where I can find 7.04 
source and I'll go download it!

73,
Michael VA3MVW



On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Cees Tool wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mvw@mvw.net>
> 
> > This is definitely not GPL:
> >
> ....
> > are old and do not fit the software... took me an hour to see I had to run
> > that script. How about a simple readme that mentions this? These are the
> > very basics of software!
> ....
> >Alas, there is no standard "./configure, make, make
> >install", and the bbs when it does come up is mysterious, needs obscure
> >text files edited, and displays Toulouse stuff by default...
> 
> Wow !
> The source-tree of the latest version I have here (7.04h) has all these
> things in it.
> 
> There is a file "COPYING" with the GPL license in it, there are several
> readme-files how you should compile the code,  there is no "configure"
> needed, you should only check if the path of the ax25-utils/libraries
> differs from the standard path and change it if needed. Then you can type
> "make"  and after that "make install" and the installation script will
> install everything in the right directory's and asks your station details.
> If you answer all questions, you will end up with a working installation.
> (and there is absolutely no need to remove include files from the source)
> 
> Looking in the sourcecode tree for a file called README or INFO only costs 1
> minute of your time. (and is probably less then the time it took to write
> about "bad sofware")
> 
> If all of this is too difficult for you, please do not even try to install
> it. Probably the normal daily sysop work would also be too difficult ....
> 
> 73
> Cees
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: FBB... (follow up)

[mvw]

Cees,

To be exact, the f6fbb site has this on its "latest versions" page:

----------------------------------
LinFbb

LinFBB 7.03c daemon-version (Linux) source code (634 KB)
LinFBB 7.03 daemon-version (Linux) Redhat 5.2 RPM (850 KB)
LinFBB 7.04 all-versions (Linux) Redhat 6.1 RPM (879 KB)
LinFBB 7.03 daemon-version (Linux) SuSE 7.0 RPM (352 KB)
LinFBB 7.03 daemon-version (Linux) Slackware 7.0 package (353 KB)
LinFBB 7.03 daemon-version (Linux) Debian package (333 KB)
Windows client v1.12 for LinFBB 7.03 daemon-version (888 KB)
7pFBB 2.00 (7+) package for LinFBB 7.03.
MULTI 1.25 package for LinFBB.
C_FILTER package for LinFBB.
----------------------------------


..so that is why I thought the latest version source was 7.03 (and I have 
RedHAt 8, so a 6.1 rpm would almost certianly not work).

Cheers,
Michael

Re: FBB... (follow up)

[Tomi Manninen]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> To be exact, the f6fbb site has this on its "latest versions" page:

Yes, this (too) is not very well set up on the web page. The latest source
distribution is at:

 ftp://ftp.f6fbb.org/pub/f6fbb/distrib/linux/src/

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: FBB...

[Tomi Manninen]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Cees Tool wrote:

> you should only check if the path of the ax25-utils/libraries
> differs from the standard path and change it if needed.

Actually I don't think even this is necessary. It's left over from the 
time when libax25 was not available as a dynamic library with the headers 
installed in a standard location.

There is definitely a lot to be done in FBB to get these things right but
then again having written a few software packages myself I can really say
that documantation is definitely the most annoying, dull and even
difficult part of it all... So I'm not going to say anything bad about
Jean-Paul because of it... :)

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: FBB...

[Cees Tool]

Hi,

----- Original Message -----
From: <mvw@mvw.net>

> Although I detect a tone of disrespect in your reply, which I
> think is uncalled for among amateurs, I will answer seriously.

That (ham-spirit) is why your first mail surprised me (and others I think)

If someone has problems with software, normally on this newsgroup he asks
what is wrong, before he starts writing that it is the worst software he has
seen in his life with missing installation and readme files, (and other
remarks). But maybe I have misunderstood you and I apologise if so !


> Now, I have the previous version, namely 7.03, because that is the last
> one I can find on the fbb site "last versions" page as source. As far as

I still have the sourcecode of all versions since 7.02 upto 7.04h (25
versions) and they all have the readme/info/copying files in them, so
probably you have a different installation archive. The www.f6fbb.org site
is not updated all the time I think, and it is usually slow, but there are
many mirrors where you can dowload the latest sourcecode. You could try
ftp.funet.fi and navigate to the ax25 / bbs / fbb directory's. Also on
Google you will find other download sources.

If you have any questions on installing FBB, you could try the XFBB mailing
list too !
Most questions will be answered within hours.


73,

Cees

Re: FBB...

[Joop Stakenborg]

Op wo 25-12-2002, om 21:01 schreef mvw@mvw.net:
> Joop,
> > 
> > ...the licensing has been GPL for over a year now.
> 
> Not to argue, but check http://ftp.f6fbb.org/fbbdoc/doccopyr.htm
> 
> This is definitely not GPL:
> 
> "This software is delivered at no cost and is free of all charges. It can
> be freely copied or installed for any HAM-RADIO application. Any other
> usage for commercial, professional, or industrial purposes is forbidden.
> Despite the free sharing nature of this product, a participation to the
> investment and to the mailing cost at the level of 100 FF or 20 US Dollars
> (or more) would be most welcome."
> 

Michael,

I think you are referring to the old copyright notice.


> 73,
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 

Joop

Re: FBB...

[Joop Stakenborg]

Op wo 25-12-2002, om 15:54 schreef mvw@mvw.net:
> Joop,
> 
> [F6FBB not very useable]
> > I think you are wrong in several ways. The times I have set up 
> > fbb have been easy. Included is a scipt which you run
> 
> But not instructions: they are only on the web site, and even there they
> are old and do not fit the software... took me an hour to see I had to run
> that script. How about a simple readme that mentions this? These are the 
> very basics of software!
> 

To be honest, I have heard of at least one other ham who encountered
the same problems. When I told him the only thing he had to do was
run the script, his problems were solved.

> I must mention, I downloaded the tar.gz, not the rpm: I run a too-modern
> RedHat for that. Alas, there is no standard "./configure, make, make
> install", and the bbs when it does come up is mysterious, needs obscure
> text files edited, and displays Toulouse stuff by default...
> 

Hmm, yes. A bit of fbb knowledge seems to be needed to get used to
setting up fbb. I would say it's not software to begin with if you want
a simple mailbox.

> > The english is certainly not bad and the licensing has been GPL
> > for over a year now.
> 
> But the readme urges users to not make changes on their own. Surely that's 
> not GPL?

No.

> 
> > Low standard software? Can you explain to me why it is used all over
> > the world by almost every bbs?
> 
> I would say, because there appears to be nothing else.
> 
> > Yeah, build your own if you can't find what you want.
> 
> Ah, that's why I am asking here.

Well fbb originally comes from a dos environment. This means you will
find a dos-like environment both for setup and at runtime. But I guess
it's kindof difficult to maintain a multi-platform mailbox and
have it perform nicely on every platform. So, if you are looking for a
unix/linux-like mailbox, you should try something else.

There are several mailboxes mentioned at
http://radio.linux.org.au/?sectpat=packet
of which dpbox is widely used in germany, but I have never tried it.
I have tried the gw3tmh mailbox a few years back, but it is written for
2.0 kernels and needs to be ported to a recent kernel and
ax25-lib/tools.

Morelia might also be interesting for you.

> 
> 73 de Michael va3mvw
> 
> 
> 

Regards,
Joop PA4TU

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Wilbert Knol]

I guess my previous mesage regarding the use  of AWZnode 0.4-pre2 was 
not too clear. There are two commands that are relevant:

The 'send' command allows node users (typically incoming packet radio
users) to deposit a message. The target of the message is a callsign.
That callsign must be registered in node.users, where it is mapped to
an existing local Linux user. The message is then delivered to that 
user as E-mail (or it can be read from the AWZnode mailbox as per 
below)

The other command is the 'mail' command, which opens a mailbox, very
much like the one produced by the Linux 'mail' command. Once again,
the packet radio user must be registered in node.users for this
command to work. 

So, if a completely random ax25 user logs in, all they can do, is send
a message to the sysop with 'send <sysop_callsign>, asking to create a 
Linux account for them, and to make an entry for them in node.users. 

The latter maps their call to the Linux user, and allows them to use
the AWZnode 'mail' command.

Whilst all of this works, a new caller cannot log in and leave a 
message for another unregistered ax25 user, which, I guess, is what 
Michael wanted his PMS/BBS to do. In any case: new ax25 users *can* 
leave him a message.

Aside from all this, if you are running a multi-port ax25 setup,
AWZnode is a worthwhile thing to have. It doesn't gobble up any
resources as it is started from ax25d, and gives ax25 users the sort
of this they usually want: a cross-port gateway, mheard facilities,
telnet, ping etc. I have had it running here for quite a while and it
is very well-behaved.

Wilbert, ZL2BSJ

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Bob Nielsen]

Has there been any update since 0.4-pre2?  That came out quite a while
ago (and I guess the "pre2" implies that a 0.4 version is imminent).

Bob, N7XY

On Thu, Dec 26, 2002 at 01:31:19PM +1300, Wilbert Knol wrote:
> 
> I guess my previous mesage regarding the use  of AWZnode 0.4-pre2 was 
> not too clear. There are two commands that are relevant:
> 
> The 'send' command allows node users (typically incoming packet radio
> users) to deposit a message. The target of the message is a callsign.
> That callsign must be registered in node.users, where it is mapped to
> an existing local Linux user. The message is then delivered to that 
> user as E-mail (or it can be read from the AWZnode mailbox as per 
> below)
> 
> The other command is the 'mail' command, which opens a mailbox, very
> much like the one produced by the Linux 'mail' command. Once again,
> the packet radio user must be registered in node.users for this
> command to work. 
> 
> So, if a completely random ax25 user logs in, all they can do, is send
> a message to the sysop with 'send <sysop_callsign>, asking to create a 
> Linux account for them, and to make an entry for them in node.users. 
> 
> The latter maps their call to the Linux user, and allows them to use
> the AWZnode 'mail' command.
> 
> Whilst all of this works, a new caller cannot log in and leave a 
> message for another unregistered ax25 user, which, I guess, is what 
> Michael wanted his PMS/BBS to do. In any case: new ax25 users *can* 
> leave him a message.
> 
> Aside from all this, if you are running a multi-port ax25 setup,
> AWZnode is a worthwhile thing to have. It doesn't gobble up any
> resources as it is started from ax25d, and gives ax25 users the sort
> of this they usually want: a cross-port gateway, mheard facilities,
> telnet, ping etc. I have had it running here for quite a while and it
> is very well-behaved.
> 
> Wilbert, ZL2BSJ
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          n7xy@n7xy.net
Bainbridge Island, WA  
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

Re: FBB... (follow up)

[mvw]

Tomi, and others,

OK, useful advice. The first thing I am doing is going to 

>  ftp://ftp.f6fbb.org/pub/f6fbb/distrib/linux/src/

...to download version 7.04h source. I'll try with that and let you know 
if I am getting on any better. I have some hope, as there are quite a few 
versions between what I had and what the latest version there is.i

Michael

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Wilbert Knol]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Bob Nielsen wrote:

> Has there been any update since 0.4-pre2?  That came out quite a while
> ago (and I guess the "pre2" implies that a 0.4 version is imminent).

Last time I looked (a couple of months ago) 0.4-pre2 was the most 
recent version. I think it's almost 2 years old now, and seems to be 
perfectly OK.


Wilbert, ZL2BSJ

FBB... any more help?

[mvw]

OK, so 7.04h is a bit better than 7.03 and I am making some progress. I
have fbb working, replaced the dozens of "f6fbb's" and "Toulouse's" in the
english.txt file (why not make them variables!), and I can now locally
access and send/receive messages using xffbC. (Have not hooked up the
radios yet until it is all working).

1. Can I get bulletins via the Internet instead of via radio? Not sure any
remaining bbs's in my area to give me a feed.

2. Alternately, what do I do to make it a local message box only (ie no 
forwarding to ax25 bbs network)? Docs not very clear on this. E.g. what 
config changes do I make; how do I send bulletinsg just locally, etc.

Any other help gratefully acknowledged.

73 Mike VA3MVW

Re: FBB... any more help?

[Chuck Gelm]

Hi, Mike:

 I'm not sure I understand your questions, but I will try.

mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> 
> OK, so 7.04h is a bit better than 7.03 and I am making some progress. I
> have fbb working, replaced the dozens of "f6fbb's" and "Toulouse's" in the
> english.txt file (why not make them variables!), and I can now locally
> access and send/receive messages using xffbC. (Have not hooked up the
> radios yet until it is all working).
> 
> 1. Can I get bulletins via the Internet instead of via radio?

 Yes.

>              Not sure any
> remaining bbs's in my area to give me a feed.

 I am baffled by this statement.  I see no way for us to respond
to this statement.  If you are not sure, we are probably even
less sure.  :-|  You really ought to be sure, because if there
are already pBBSs in your area and they are already getting
bulletin feeds, then maybe another brand spanking new pBBS
run by a brand spanking new sysop, may not be accepted with
loving arms.   :-|

 However, if you watch the messages go by on this list server,
you will see, from time to time, offers of bulletin feeds via 
internet (telnet).

> 2. Alternately, what do I do to make it a local message box only (ie no
> forwarding to ax25 bbs network)?

 Umm, if you set up no forwarding, it is a
"no forwarding to ax25 bbs network" pbbs.  :-|

> Docs not very clear on this.

 Uh, yea, I'm not very clear on this either.
If you are not going to forward, why have a 'full featured' pbbs?
A 'built into the TNC PMS' does what you have mentioned.
So, the only difference is the amount of message storage.  :-|

>                                E.g. what
> config changes do I make; how do I send bulletinsg just locally, etc.

As far as BBS configuration goes,
 bulletins are sent locally the same way they are sent distantly.
The pBBS has no concept of distance or geography.

> Any other help gratefully acknowledged.
> 
> 73 Mike VA3MVW
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: FBB... any more help?

[mvw]

OK Chuck, here we go:


>> 1. Can I get bulletins via the Internet instead of via radio?
>  Yes.

OK. Sorry to ask, but how? I assume you mean wait for the offers by 
telnet as you mention elsewhere: OK, that suits me fine, I'll wait.


>> Not sure any remaining bbs's in my area to give me a feed.

>  I am baffled by this statement.

Well, I used to run a bbs on our local VHF LAN frequency with a feed from
another local station on UHF: but he has stopped doing packet. I am not
sure anyone else still does. Background: I have been asked to run a BBS
for local emergency purposes. But while I am at it, bulletins may be a
nice addition. Since there is less and less packet I am pretty sure no 
local sysops will object. The reactions are either positive or "don't 
care about packet anymore".

I think packet radio is vastly underrated. The reason I am asking all
these questions here about BBS's is that local message storage is a nice
addition, but IMHO, tcp/ip is the real power. I mean:

- To get bits across my cell phone I pay $0.10 per kB or something. 
Amateur bits are free.

- When my home cable connection goes down, I get to wait 2-3 weeks for a 
repair van. The amateur infrastructure is under my own control. And 
reliable.

- In emergencies, cell and Internet access will go down. My ham packet
station will not.

And keep in mind, I am trying to make a contribution! I have many PCs
available, and I have static IP's (I can be a gateway), and I have many
TNCs and radios available. And stable power, battery backups, good
antennas, and as an ex telecomms engineer I understand reliability. (My
packet station has now been up for 3 years with zero errors; last reboot
370 days ago at my instigation).

Yet when I ask here, no-one appears interested. 

And begging everyone's forgiveness, I am not all that up on packet: my
professional life is Internet and tcp/ip, so that I understand.  This
means I will sometimes ask silly questions and show my ignorance about
ax25 and BBS's. Bear with me! ;)


>  Umm, if you set up no forwarding, it is a
> "no forwarding to ax25 bbs network" pbbs.  :-|

I see - so by default fbbs does not forward? I am handicapped by the fact
that all the docs assume you know all this stuff. I used to, 25 years ago:  
I knew all bout 300 baud modems, Fidonet etc - but I have forgotten all
that stuff and fbb docs are very unforgiving of people who have forgotten
stuff they knew a quarter century ago!  :-)


> If you are not going to forward, why have a 'full featured' pbbs?

Aha, good question. I asked here for simple BBS's: TNC functionality would
indeed have done: that is what I was looking for. But as I read it,
everyone here said "use FBB, as everyone else does", and indeed there are
no other alternatives, it appears. I am a pretty good reader, so point me 
to the docs and I am happy to read 'em.

(That explains my occasional frustration too. Point me to the docs, and 
then there are no docs, o0r as in FBB's case, they are hopelessly 
contradictory and outdated. Leaves guys like me in a bind)


> A 'built into the TNC PMS' does what you have mentioned.

But for TCP/IP I need to set the TNC to KISS, so that built-in 
functionality is not available...

Cheers, and thx for the help so far,

Michael VA3MVW

Re: FBB... any more help?

[Chuck Gelm]

Hi, Mike:

 I know much more about you now.  I can understand better
why you ask the questions that you do.  

 I ran KA9Q's NET from 1988-1989,
(DOS)WA7MBL from 1989-1990,
(DOS) AA4RE from 1990-2001,
 DOS    FBB from 1999-2000,
 WIN    FBB from 2000-2001,
   XFBB for awhile in 2001.
I used G8BPQ node code from 1990-2001.

 I agree that the FBB docs do not seem to assume that this is
one's first installation.  I first tried FBB in last half of 1999.
My favorite pBBS was not being supported at that time and the
'y2k' bug was fast approaching.  FBB was being supported at that
time so I was trying to switch to FBB.  The 'docs' seemed to 
assume that one was upgrading from the old v5.15 (IIRC) and the
installer was familiar with the style and configuration.  
Alas, I was not.
:-(
 I had been using G8BPQ node code for a decade and, thankfully,
I could configure FBB to use G8BQP node too. :-)

 At first I used the DOS version. 
I was startled to find that there were no provisions to
'monitor' what was happening on the ports. ! :-(
Gosh, it was so nice to watch a forward session to see
what was errant in a script file.  FBB was like flying blind!
:-(
 Later when there were no RF paths in or out of the LAN, I 
added the Windows version on another PC and picked up an
internet telnet feed.

 I did successfully install v7.04h within the last year.
However, I found no human activity and the only nodes
I can hear are all single port nodes and they are all
on the same frequency (145.01 MHz).  I could find no
packet on 222-225 MHz nor 440-450 MHz.  :-(

 What are the Canadian Amateur Radio Rules in regard to
the 802.11b devices?  Here in the USA, channels 1 through
6 fall entirely within our 2390 - 2450 MHz band.

 Imagine 11 Megabits per second!  Quite an upgrade from
300 baud, eh?  These 100mw transceivers are selling from
40 USD and up.  With the addition of dish antennas (75 USD)
they have proven reliable for LOS distances of up to
20 miles.  Of course, LOS is the difficult part. :-|

 Since you are fluent in TCP/IP and it is 'easy' to
encapsulate AX.25 in IP datagrams, imagine how easy
it could be to link network nodes for 1200 baud users.
;-)

HTH,  Chuck
 

mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> 
> OK Chuck, here we go:
> 
> >> 1. Can I get bulletins via the Internet instead of via radio?
> >  Yes.
> 
> OK. Sorry to ask, but how? I assume you mean wait for the offers by
> telnet as you mention elsewhere: OK, that suits me fine, I'll wait.
> 
> >> Not sure any remaining bbs's in my area to give me a feed.
> 
> >  I am baffled by this statement.
> 
> Well, I used to run a bbs on our local VHF LAN frequency with a feed from
> another local station on UHF: but he has stopped doing packet. I am not
> sure anyone else still does. Background: I have been asked to run a BBS
> for local emergency purposes. But while I am at it, bulletins may be a
> nice addition. Since there is less and less packet I am pretty sure no
> local sysops will object. The reactions are either positive or "don't
> care about packet anymore".
> 
> I think packet radio is vastly underrated. The reason I am asking all
> these questions here about BBS's is that local message storage is a nice
> addition, but IMHO, tcp/ip is the real power. I mean:
> 
> - To get bits across my cell phone I pay $0.10 per kB or something.
> Amateur bits are free.
> 
> - When my home cable connection goes down, I get to wait 2-3 weeks for a
> repair van. The amateur infrastructure is under my own control. And
> reliable.
> 
> - In emergencies, cell and Internet access will go down. My ham packet
> station will not.
> 
> And keep in mind, I am trying to make a contribution! I have many PCs
> available, and I have static IP's (I can be a gateway), and I have many
> TNCs and radios available. And stable power, battery backups, good
> antennas, and as an ex telecomms engineer I understand reliability. (My
> packet station has now been up for 3 years with zero errors; last reboot
> 370 days ago at my instigation).
> 
> Yet when I ask here, no-one appears interested.
> 
> And begging everyone's forgiveness, I am not all that up on packet: my
> professional life is Internet and tcp/ip, so that I understand.  This
> means I will sometimes ask silly questions and show my ignorance about
> ax25 and BBS's. Bear with me! ;)
> 
> >  Umm, if you set up no forwarding, it is a
> > "no forwarding to ax25 bbs network" pbbs.  :-|
> 
> I see - so by default fbbs does not forward? I am handicapped by the fact
> that all the docs assume you know all this stuff. I used to, 25 years ago:
> I knew all bout 300 baud modems, Fidonet etc - but I have forgotten all
> that stuff and fbb docs are very unforgiving of people who have forgotten
> stuff they knew a quarter century ago!  :-)
> 
> > If you are not going to forward, why have a 'full featured' pbbs?
> 
> Aha, good question. I asked here for simple BBS's: TNC functionality would
> indeed have done: that is what I was looking for. But as I read it,
> everyone here said "use FBB, as everyone else does", and indeed there are
> no other alternatives, it appears. I am a pretty good reader, so point me
> to the docs and I am happy to read 'em.
> 
> (That explains my occasional frustration too. Point me to the docs, and
> then there are no docs, o0r as in FBB's case, they are hopelessly
> contradictory and outdated. Leaves guys like me in a bind)
> 
> > A 'built into the TNC PMS' does what you have mentioned.
> 
> But for TCP/IP I need to set the TNC to KISS, so that built-in
> functionality is not available...
> 
> Cheers, and thx for the help so far,
> 
> Michael VA3MVW

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[Robin Gilks]

Might I suggest Morelia written by Andy, g4xyw.

This is a program written in Python which can be fired off from [x]inetd
and fronts all the familiar *nix utilities and presents them to the user
in a *nos user interface which if not very powerful is at least well
known. To quote from the web page at http://www.tvipug.org

....
Morelia is a front end for a Linux/Unix packet radio system and is
modelled after the bbs which is available in the  [JT]NOS packages. It is
a cross between a NODE and a BBS, as it makes nntp news and mail available
to the user as well as DNS, convers, operator chat and other sysop defined
features.

Morelia does not really provide any of the actual servers/services but
simply makes them available to either AX25 or TCP/IP users.
....

It can be found on the download page of the club web site and overview of
its operation is under the club sponsored projects and the only
requirements are a means of connecting to it (i.e. AX25 installed and
running) and python V2.0 or later

> Hi all,
>
> OK, I have another all- new machine ready to go online. Redhat 8 with
> Custom kernel (2.4.20 with ax25 and kiss compiled in), two serial ports,
> routing for my two IPs, and so on. An as-new P133 with 64 MB and no cpu
> fan - perfect for many years of reliable radio use.
>
> (My server 'hambox' has been up for years - 371 days since the last
> reboot  for regular dust-cleaning.)
>
> Now, I asked before but forget the answers. Forgive me for asking again:
>
> a) I should know this, but how can I get telnet to only work on the
> radio  ports and not on the ethernet port? I.e. telnet (unencrypted)
> only from  the ax25 ports.
>
> b) I use tcp/ip for mail etc. But apart from that I would like to set up
> a  simple messaging system/bbs, to use when someone goes to this system
> using  ax25. I do not need "do it all" systems, just a simple bbs (and
> it's a  1200 bps port, so a simple one with little text would be great).
>
> Suggestions, all?
>
> Many thanks for your indulgence.
>
> 73
> Michael VA3MVW
>

Re: Simple BBS, again, sorry for asking twice.

[mvw]

Robin,

Excellent, sound slike just what I need. I am going to check it out 
(tomorrow; today's a work day!)

73
Michael VA3MVWOn Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Robin Gilks wrote:

> Might I suggest Morelia written by Andy, g4xyw.
> 
> This is a program written in Python which can be fired off from [x]inetd
> and fronts all the familiar *nix utilities and presents them to the user
> in a *nos user interface which if not very powerful is at least well
> known. To quote from the web page at http://www.tvipug.org
> 
> ....
> Morelia is a front end for a Linux/Unix packet radio system and is
> modelled after the bbs which is available in the  [JT]NOS packages. It is
> a cross between a NODE and a BBS, as it makes nntp news and mail available
> to the user as well as DNS, convers, operator chat and other sysop defined
> features.
> 
> Morelia does not really provide any of the actual servers/services but
> simply makes them available to either AX25 or TCP/IP users.
> ....
> 
> It can be found on the download page of the club web site and overview of
> its operation is under the club sponsored projects and the only
> requirements are a means of connecting to it (i.e. AX25 installed and
> running) and python V2.0 or later
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > OK, I have another all- new machine ready to go online. Redhat 8 with
> > Custom kernel (2.4.20 with ax25 and kiss compiled in), two serial ports,
> > routing for my two IPs, and so on. An as-new P133 with 64 MB and no cpu
> > fan - perfect for many years of reliable radio use.
> >
> > (My server 'hambox' has been up for years - 371 days since the last
> > reboot  for regular dust-cleaning.)
> >
> > Now, I asked before but forget the answers. Forgive me for asking again:
> >
> > a) I should know this, but how can I get telnet to only work on the
> > radio  ports and not on the ethernet port? I.e. telnet (unencrypted)
> > only from  the ax25 ports.
> >
> > b) I use tcp/ip for mail etc. But apart from that I would like to set up
> > a  simple messaging system/bbs, to use when someone goes to this system
> > using  ax25. I do not need "do it all" systems, just a simple bbs (and
> > it's a  1200 bps port, so a simple one with little text would be great).
> >
> > Suggestions, all?
> >
> > Many thanks for your indulgence.
> >
> > 73
> > Michael VA3MVW
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

ax25 pakcet problem: any ideas?

[mvw]

Hello all,

Here's the issue: any ideas welcome.

Box 1 (client) talks to box 2( bbs server), via ax25. When box2 sends a
packet, box 1 (the client)  hears it. But when I open by bbs, the first
packet is 255 characters long, and is never heard, The next packets are 
shorter and are always heard. Like this:

This packet from va3oak to va3mvw is sent but never seen by va3mvw:

radio1: fm VA3OAK-1 to VA3MVW ctl I00^ pid=F0(Text) len 250 12:30:33
0000  [FBB-7.04h-AB1FHMRX$]MM-----------------------------------------
0040  -------MHello Michael, on 27-Dec at 12:30MWelcome to The VA3OAK
0080  Message System, located inMOakville, Ontario. For licensed amate
00C0  ur use only.M---------------------------------------------


This one follows and IS always seen:

radio1: fm VA3OAK-1 to VA3MVW ctl I01+ pid=F0(Text) len 47 12:30:33
0000  ---MMVA3OAK (B,LM,R<nr>,S<call>,I,O,X,!,#,?) >


Any ideas?

Michael

Re: ax25 pakcet problem: any ideas?

[Tomi Manninen]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> But when I open by bbs, the first
> packet is 255 characters long, and is never heard, The next packets are 
> shorter and are always heard.

This is just a guess, but the lenght of the packet might not be the issue.  
It could be that the txdelay at VA3OAK is too short, thereby distroying
the start of the packet. That would cause behaviour like this. (I'm 
assuming both packets are sent in one go.)

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: ax25 pakcet problem: any ideas?

[mvw]

Tomi,

OK, I shoudl check this. Worth nothing that other transmissions (ax25) do 
work, and also, va3am was able to connect fine. So perhaps the problem is 
more likely to be on the va3mvw side. Not sure what to look for but 
that's where my efforts will now concentrate.
Thanks as always.

Michael

On Fri, 27 Dec 
2002, Tomi Manninen wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> 
> > But when I open by bbs, the first
> > packet is 255 characters long, and is never heard, The next packets are 
> > shorter and are always heard.
> 
> This is just a guess, but the lenght of the packet might not be the issue.  
> It could be that the txdelay at VA3OAK is too short, thereby distroying
> the start of the packet. That would cause behaviour like this. (I'm 
> assuming both packets are sent in one go.)
> 
> 

Re: ax25 pakcet problem: any ideas?

[Tomi Manninen]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> OK, I shoudl check this. Worth nothing that other transmissions (ax25) do 
> work, and also, va3am was able to connect fine. So perhaps the problem is 
> more likely to be on the va3mvw side. Not sure what to look for but 
> that's where my efforts will now concentrate.

Ok,

That would seem like the txdelay at VA3OAK is enough for it's TX chain but
unfortunately on a shared channel you will have to go by the weakest link.  
It might be that the TX-to-RX switching delay of the TRX or the synch
delay of the TNC at VA3MVW might be too long.

Then agin, the problem might be something else just as well...

/Tomi

> On Fri, 27 Dec 
> 2002, Tomi Manninen wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> > 
> > > But when I open by bbs, the first
> > > packet is 255 characters long, and is never heard, The next packets are 
> > > shorter and are always heard.
> > 
> > This is just a guess, but the lenght of the packet might not be the issue.  
> > It could be that the txdelay at VA3OAK is too short, thereby distroying
> > the start of the packet. That would cause behaviour like this. (I'm 
> > assuming both packets are sent in one go.)
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

packet radio indoor

[Vivi Kusumo]

Dear all,

I will use packet radio only in a room
|pc1|--|sc1|--|ht1| <--/
                      /--> |ht2|--|sc2|--|pc2| 
The hardware and software are:
Personal Computer
Sound Card
HT
RH Linux 7.1 kernel upgraded 2.4.19 and radio packet
support
libax25-0.0.9
ax25-apps-0.0.6
ax25-tools-0.0.8
node.0.3.0
soundmodem-0.7


First of all I am using stereo cable to connect 2
machines without ht and checking if the TCP/IP
facilities works such as ping, ftp, telnet and ssh. 
|pc1|--|sc1|--------|sc2|--|pc2|

According to
<http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/installax25.htm> I
have installed the ax.25 stuff and node.0.3.0 in pc1
and pc2, and all going well without error message in
the directory </usr/local/src>. Than I  installed the
soundmodem-0.7 in the same directory.

my1com# ifconfig
sm0  Link encap: AMPR AX.25 HWaddr MY1COM
     inet addr: 44.128.1.5 Bcast: 44.128.1.255 Mask:
255.255.255.0
     ..

my2com# ifconfig 
sm0  Link encap: AMPR AX.25 HWaddr MY2COM
     inet addr: 44.128.1.8 Bcast: 44.128.1.255 Mask:
255.255.255.0
     ..

Next I have connected sc1 and sc2 using stereo cables
as follow:
MIC-sc1|----|SPK-sc2

SPK-sc1|----|MIC-sc2

But the "ping", "ftp", "ssh" and "telnet" commands
don't work from pc1 to pc2 and virce virca.
[my1com]$ ping my2com
PING my2com.ampr.org (44.128.1.8) from 44.128.1.5:
56(84) bytes of data
From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
unreachable
From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
unreachable
From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
unreachable

--- my2com.ampr.org ping statistics ---
4 packets transmitted, 0 packet received, +3 errors,
100% packet loss

Please any idea what should I do to make "ping",
"ftp", "ssh" and "telnet" commands workable and
useable? 

Thanks
Vivi


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Re: packet radio indoor

[Wilbert Knol]

On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Vivi Kusumo wrote:

> my1com# ifconfig
> sm0  Link encap: AMPR AX.25 HWaddr MY1COM
>      inet addr: 44.128.1.5 Bcast: 44.128.1.255 Mask:
> 255.255.255.0
>      ..

Is sm0 'UP'?? (next line, please)

If not: 'ifconfig sm0 up'

Next: set up the IP routing (man route). See below.


> Next I have connected sc1 and sc2 using stereo cables
> as follow:

Good idea.
Run 'aumix' and make sure the line input and output are not muted.
Make sure the volumes are not right down...

Are the sound modems actually transmitting audio? Check with as 
pair of headphones. If you blow your brains out, then it's working :-)
Are you seeing anything on the interfaces? Try: 'listen -a -c'

> But the "ping", "ftp", "ssh" and "telnet" commands
> don't work from pc1 to pc2 and virce virca.
> [my1com]$ ping my2com
> PING my2com.ampr.org (44.128.1.8) from 44.128.1.5:
> 56(84) bytes of data
> >From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
> unreachable

You will have to tell your machine what port to send the frame on;

route add 44.128.1.8 sm0

You may also have to set an ARP entry (man arp)


Wilbert, ZL2BSJ

Re: packet radio indoor

[Chuck Gelm]

Hi, Vivi:

 I'd like to see the output of
route -n


HTH, Chuck


Vivi Kusumo wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I will use packet radio only in a room
> |pc1|--|sc1|--|ht1| <--/
>                       /--> |ht2|--|sc2|--|pc2|
> The hardware and software are:
> Personal Computer
> Sound Card
> HT
> RH Linux 7.1 kernel upgraded 2.4.19 and radio packet
> support
> libax25-0.0.9
> ax25-apps-0.0.6
> ax25-tools-0.0.8
> node.0.3.0
> soundmodem-0.7
> 
> First of all I am using stereo cable to connect 2
> machines without ht and checking if the TCP/IP
> facilities works such as ping, ftp, telnet and ssh.
> |pc1|--|sc1|--------|sc2|--|pc2|
> 
> According to
> <http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/installax25.htm> I
> have installed the ax.25 stuff and node.0.3.0 in pc1
> and pc2, and all going well without error message in
> the directory </usr/local/src>. Than I  installed the
> soundmodem-0.7 in the same directory.
> 
> my1com# ifconfig
> sm0  Link encap: AMPR AX.25 HWaddr MY1COM
>      inet addr: 44.128.1.5 Bcast: 44.128.1.255 Mask:
> 255.255.255.0
>      ..
> 
> my2com# ifconfig
> sm0  Link encap: AMPR AX.25 HWaddr MY2COM
>      inet addr: 44.128.1.8 Bcast: 44.128.1.255 Mask:
> 255.255.255.0
>      ..
> 
> Next I have connected sc1 and sc2 using stereo cables
> as follow:
> MIC-sc1|----|SPK-sc2
> 
> SPK-sc1|----|MIC-sc2
> 
> But the "ping", "ftp", "ssh" and "telnet" commands
> don't work from pc1 to pc2 and virce virca.
> [my1com]$ ping my2com
> PING my2com.ampr.org (44.128.1.8) from 44.128.1.5:
> 56(84) bytes of data
> >From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
> unreachable
> >From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
> unreachable
> >From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
> unreachable
> 
> --- my2com.ampr.org ping statistics ---
> 4 packets transmitted, 0 packet received, +3 errors,
> 100% packet loss
> 
> Please any idea what should I do to make "ping",
> "ftp", "ssh" and "telnet" commands workable and
> useable?
> 
> Thanks
> Vivi

tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[mvw]

Hello all,

When I use tcp/ip over ax25, I notice that packets are sent very
frequently when I am on the keyboard. For some applications (e.g.  using a
BBS, which is almost character-oriented) that is suitable, but for some,
like telnet, it is inappropriate: my telnet sessions are 'de facto'
almost line-oriented, so it would be best if packets were sent after a CR
*or* after a delay of, say, 500 ms. That would prevent a LOT of unwanted
radio traffic. Right now, a 10-letter word can generate 5-10 packets, when 
one would be enough.

I am sure I am overlooking this, but can I set this? How? 

I have of course read the HOWTO etc but no doubt skipped over this. Many
thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Michael va3mvw

Re: tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 10:18:51PM -0500, mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> When I use tcp/ip over ax25, I notice that packets are sent very
> frequently when I am on the keyboard. For some applications (e.g.  using a
> BBS, which is almost character-oriented) that is suitable, but for some,
> like telnet, it is inappropriate: my telnet sessions are 'de facto'
> almost line-oriented, so it would be best if packets were sent after a CR
> *or* after a delay of, say, 500 ms. That would prevent a LOT of unwanted
> radio traffic. Right now, a 10-letter word can generate 5-10 packets, when 
> one would be enough.
> 
> I am sure I am overlooking this, but can I set this? How? 
> 
> I have of course read the HOWTO etc but no doubt skipped over this. Many
> thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

In Telnet you can get to the command prompt (usually control-]) then
use 'mode line' to switch to line mode. You may have to change some
other options after that, such as local echo. There doesn't seem to be a
way to force line mode before starting telnet.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>

Re: tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[Henrique Miranda]

Hi Michael,

An application that can solve your problem is axssh.
You can find it at: http://hes.iki.fi/pub/ham/unix/utils/

Description:

Title:          Axssh
Version:        0.1
Entered-date:   
Description:    Linemode wrapper for SSH via Amateur Packet Radio links
Keywords:       ham, amateur, AX.25, TCP/IP
Author:         jreuter@poboxes.com (Joerg Reuter)
Maintained-by:  
Primary-site:   db0bm.automation.fh-aachen.de /pub/incoming/dl1bke
                axssh-0.1.tar.gz
Alternate-site: 
Original-site:  
Platforms:      Linux, probably others as well. Required: libbsd, for 
                Linux Alpha "libutil", SSH package from ftp.funet.fi,
                VT100 emulation (Linux console, xterm...)
Copying-policy: GPL

HTH.

Henrique


On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:
	
> Hello all,
> 
> When I use tcp/ip over ax25, I notice that packets are sent very
> frequently when I am on the keyboard. For some applications (e.g.  using a
> BBS, which is almost character-oriented) that is suitable, but for some,
> like telnet, it is inappropriate: my telnet sessions are 'de facto'
> almost line-oriented, so it would be best if packets were sent after a CR
> *or* after a delay of, say, 500 ms. That would prevent a LOT of unwanted
> radio traffic. Right now, a 10-letter word can generate 5-10 packets, when 
> one would be enough.
> 
> I am sure I am overlooking this, but can I set this? How? 
> 
> I have of course read the HOWTO etc but no doubt skipped over this. Many
> thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
> 
> Michael va3mvw
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[Wilbert Knol]

On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 mvw@mvw.net wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> When I use tcp/ip over ax25, I notice that packets are sent very
> frequently when I am on the keyboard. For some applications (e.g.  using a
> BBS, which is almost character-oriented) that is suitable, but for some,
> like telnet, it is inappropriate: my telnet sessions are 'de facto'
> almost line-oriented, so it would be best if packets were sent after a CR
> *or* after a delay of, say, 500 ms. That would prevent a LOT of unwanted
> radio traffic. Right now, a 10-letter word can generate 5-10 packets, when 
> one would be enough.
> 

> I am sure I am overlooking this, but can I set this? How? 

Once your telnet client connects, hit the escape sequence (typically
Control-] ). At the prompt, type 'mode line' to put your client in
line mode.


> 
> I have of course read the HOWTO etc but no doubt skipped over this. Many
> thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I don't think it's mentioned anywhere. Perhaps a useful addition to 
the HOWTO?

Incidentally, I had a play with the telnetd server and line mode, some
time ago, but found that the line mode option wasn't compiled in. (a
pre-compiled binary...) I never got round to getting the sources, but
I reckon it would be worth a try to get the daemon to default to line
mode as well, for the reasons you mentioned. Anyway, have a look at
'man telnetd' and look for the -k option (from memory).

Hope this helps...


Wilbert, ZL2BSJ

Re: tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[Bob Nielsen]

On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 10:18:51PM -0500, mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> When I use tcp/ip over ax25, I notice that packets are sent very
> frequently when I am on the keyboard. For some applications (e.g.  using a
> BBS, which is almost character-oriented) that is suitable, but for some,
> like telnet, it is inappropriate: my telnet sessions are 'de facto'
> almost line-oriented, so it would be best if packets were sent after a CR
> *or* after a delay of, say, 500 ms. That would prevent a LOT of unwanted
> radio traffic. Right now, a 10-letter word can generate 5-10 packets, when 
> one would be enough.
> 
> I am sure I am overlooking this, but can I set this? How? 
> 
> I have of course read the HOWTO etc but no doubt skipped over this. Many
> thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

It's been a long while since I have used it, but I recall that using
splitscreen instead of telnet (specifying port 23) would give you line
mode in addition to the split screen feature.  Possibly this could also
be done with colrconv, although I haven't tried it.

73,
Bob N7XY

Re: tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[Bob Nielsen]

On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 10:12:31PM -0800, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 10:18:51PM -0500, mvw@mvw.net wrote:
> > Hello all,
> > 
> > When I use tcp/ip over ax25, I notice that packets are sent very
> > frequently when I am on the keyboard. For some applications (e.g.  using a
> > BBS, which is almost character-oriented) that is suitable, but for some,
> > like telnet, it is inappropriate: my telnet sessions are 'de facto'
> > almost line-oriented, so it would be best if packets were sent after a CR
> > *or* after a delay of, say, 500 ms. That would prevent a LOT of unwanted
> > radio traffic. Right now, a 10-letter word can generate 5-10 packets, when 
> > one would be enough.
> > 
> > I am sure I am overlooking this, but can I set this? How? 
> > 
> > I have of course read the HOWTO etc but no doubt skipped over this. Many
> > thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
> 
> It's been a long while since I have used it, but I recall that using
> splitscreen instead of telnet (specifying port 23) would give you line
> mode in addition to the split screen feature.  Possibly this could also
> be done with colrconv, although I haven't tried it.

I grabbed a copy of splitscreen and compiled it, but it doesn't appear
to support doing this (nor does colrconv).  Maybe there was some other
split screen telnet client that I used, but I haven't been able to find
it (it was several years ago and I don't remember the details).

Bob, N7XY

Re: tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[Tomi Manninen OH2BNS]

On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Bob Nielsen wrote:

> I grabbed a copy of splitscreen and compiled it, but it doesn't appear
> to support doing this (nor does colrconv).  Maybe there was some other
> split screen telnet client that I used, but I haven't been able to find
> it (it was several years ago and I don't remember the details).

I'm pretty sure colrconv does support it. There won't be any terminal
emulation capabilities that way though so I'm not sure how useful it is...

-- 
Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org

Re: packet radio indoor :-(

[Vivi Kusumo]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2828 bytes --]

--- Wilbert Knol <zl2bsj@zl2tze.ath.cx> wrote:
> Is sm0 'UP'?? (next line, please)

Yes, I think so ... because

my1com# ifconfig
eth0   ..
lo      ..		
sm0  Link encap: AMPR AX.25 HWaddr MY1COM
     inet addr: 44.128.1.5 Bcast: 44.128.1.255 Mask:
255.255.255.0
     ..

my2com# ifconfig
eth0  ..
lo    .. 
sm0  Link encap: AMPR AX.25 HWaddr MY2COM
     inet addr: 44.128.1.8 Bcast: 44.128.1.255 Mask:
255.255.255.0
     ..

> Are the sound modems actually transmitting audio?
> Check with as 
> pair of headphones. If you blow your brains out,
> then it's working :-)

The sound modem transmit audio/noise if I connect
spk_out to a speaker
[my1com]$ ping my2com

spk_sc1|-----|speaker| ...bep...bep... 


[my1com] route -n
Destination      Gateway     Genmask        Flags 
Metric  Ref  Use  Iface
44.128.1.0      0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0   U        0
        0      0     sm0
192.168.10.0  0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0   U        0  
      0      0     eth0
127.0.0.0        0.0.0.0     255.0.0.0           U    
   0         0      0      lo

> You will have to tell your machine what port to send
> the frame on;
> 
> route add 44.128.1.8 sm0

[my1com] route add 44.128.1.8  sm0
[my1com] route -n
Destination      Gateway     Genmask             Flags
 Metric  Ref  Use  Iface
44.128.1.8      0.0.0.0     255.255.255.255    UH    
0         0      0     sm0
44.128.1.0      0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0        U    
   0         0      0     sm0
192.168.10.0  0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0        U      
 0         0      0     eth0
127.0.0.0        0.0.0.0     255.0.0.0               
U        0         0      0      lo

> You may also have to set an ARP entry (man arp)

[my1com] cat /etc/ax25/axports
name   callsign    speed   paclen   window   
description
sc        my1com  1200     255         2           
soundcard

[my1com] arp  -n  44.128.1.8  -H  ax25  -s  MY2COM  -i
 sm0
[my1com] cat  /proc/net/arp
IP add           HW type   Flags    HW address        
   mask    Device
44.128.1.8      0x3           0x6     MY2COM-0     *  
 sm0

> Are you seeing anything on the interfaces? Try:
> 'listen -a -c'

[my1com]# ping my2com
PING my2com.ampr.org (44.128.1.8) from 44.128.1.5:
56(84) bytes of data
From my1com.ampr.org (44.128.1.5): Destination Host
unreachable
..
[my1com]# listen -a
axconfig: port 1 not active
axconfig: port 2 not active
sc: fm my1com to my2com ctl UI pid=CC(IP) len 84
IP: len 84  44.128.1.5->44.128.1.8 ihl 20 ttl 64 DF
prot ICMP
ICMP: type Echo Request id 22789 seq 3840
0000  -..>iD..................| "#$%&'()*+,-./01234567
sc: ....
....


Many thanks for all assistance, but 'ping' is still
unuseable ;-(
What should I do please?
 
Thanks,
Vivi.


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[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: packet_radio_indoor.rtf --]
[-- Type: text/richtext; name="packet_radio_indoor.rtf", Size: 1752 bytes --]

{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg10001\deff0{\fonttbl{\f0\fnil\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}{\f1\fswiss\fcharset77 Helvetica;}{\f2\fmodern\fcharset77 CourierNewPSMT;}}
\viewkind4\uc1\pard\tx560\tx1120\tx1680\tx2240\tx2800\tx3360\tx3920\tx4480\tx5040\tx5600\tx6160\tx6720\lang1033\f0\fs24 [my1com] route -n\par
Destination      Gateway     Genmask        Flags  Metric  Ref  Use  Iface\par
44.128.1.0      0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0   U        0         0      0     sm0\par
192.168.10.0  0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0   U        0         0      0     eth0\par
127.0.0.0        0.0.0.0     255.0.0.0           U        0         0      0      lo\f1\par
\par
> You will have to tell your machine what port to send\par
> the frame on;\par
> \par
> route add 44.128.1.8 sm0\par
\par
\f0 [my1com] route add 44.128.1.8  sm0\par
[my1com] route -n\par
Destination      Gateway     Genmask             Flags  Metric  Ref  Use  Iface\par
44.128.1.8      0.0.0.0     255.255.255.255    UH     0         0      0     sm0\par
44.128.1.0      0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0        U        0         0      0     sm0\par
192.168.10.0  0.0.0.0     255.255.255.0        U        0         0      0     eth0\par
127.0.0.0        0.0.0.0     255.0.0.0                U        0         0      0      lo\f1\par
\par
> You may also have to set an ARP entry (man arp)\par
\par
\f0 [my1com] cat /etc/ax25/axports\par
name   callsign    speed   paclen   window    description\par
sc        my1com  1200     255         2            soundcard\par
\par
[my1com] arp  -n  44.128.1.8  -H  ax25  -s  MY2COM  -i  sm0\par
[my1com] cat  /proc/net/arp\f1\par
\f0 IP add           HW type   Flags    HW address            mask    Device\par
44.128.1.8      0x3           0x6     MY2COM-0     *    sm0\f2\par
}

Re: tcp.ip over ax25, when sent?

[Bob Nielsen]

Actually either one will make a telnet connection, but neither provides
terminal capabilities for telnet.  As you said, not quite useful. 

Splitscreen works with DXSpider, while colrconv does not.

Bob N7XY

On Mon, Dec 30, 2002 at 08:58:56AM +0200, Tomi Manninen OH2BNS wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> 
> > I grabbed a copy of splitscreen and compiled it, but it doesn't appear
> > to support doing this (nor does colrconv).  Maybe there was some other
> > split screen telnet client that I used, but I haven't been able to find
> > it (it was several years ago and I don't remember the details).
> 
> I'm pretty sure colrconv does support it. There won't be any terminal
> emulation capabilities that way though so I'm not sure how useful it is...
> 
> -- 
> Tomi Manninen           Internet:  oh2bns@sral.fi
> OH2BNS                  AX.25:     oh2bns@oh2rbi.fin.eu
> KP20ME04                Amprnet:   oh2bns@oh2rbi.ampr.org
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          n7xy@n7xy.net
Bainbridge Island, WA  
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

Re: packet radio indoor :-(

[Wilbert Knol]

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Vivi Kusumo wrote:

> Many thanks for all assistance, but 'ping' is still
> unuseable ;-(
> What should I do please?

Fix it, of course.

my1com is OK. It's transmitting. Now fix the other end, along the same 
lines.

Use 'listen -a' to see if the echo request arrives. 

If not, fiddle with the mixer on the receiving end. Make sure the line
input is not muted. Wind up the transmitted audio. Check your audio
leads. Make sure the machine being pinged has a return route.


Wilbert, ZL2BSJ