From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
To: "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@sisk.pl>
Cc: Nigel Cunningham <nigel@nigel.suspend2.net>,
Pekka J Enberg <penberg@cs.helsinki.fi>,
LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Back to the future.
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:59:19 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.98.0704271647340.9964@woody.linux-foundation.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200704280145.26253.rjw@sisk.pl>
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
>
> Actually, the less things happen while we're creating and saving the image,
> the less sources of potential problems there are and by freezing the kernel
> threads (not all of them), we cause less things to happen at that time.
That makes no sense.
You have to create the snapshot image with interrupts disabled *anyway*.
I really don't see how you can say that stopping threads etc can make any
difference what-so-ever. If you don't create the snapshot with interrupts
disabled (and just with a single CPU running) you have so many other
problems that it's not even remotely funny.
So there's *by*definition* nothing at all that can happen while you
snapshot the system. Claiming otherwise is just silly.
> To make you happy, we could stop doing that, but what actual _advantage_
> that would bring?
Like getting rid of all the magic "I don't want you to freeze me" crud?
Or getting rid of this horribly idiotic "three times widdershins" kind of
black magic mentality! It looks like the main reason for the process
freezing has nothing to do with technology, but some irrational fear of
other things happening at the same time, even though they CANNOT happen if
you do things even half-way sanely.
The "let's stop all kernel threads" is superstition. It's the same kind of
superstition that made people write "sync" three times before turning off
the power in the olden times. It's the kind of superstition that comes
from "we don't do things right, so let's be vewy vewy quiet and _pray_
that it works when we are beign quiet".
That's bad.
It's doubly bad, because that idiocy has also infected s2ram. Again,
another thing that really makes no sense at all - and we do it not just
for snapshotting, but for s2ram too. Can you tell me *why*?
> > Trying to freeze kernel threads has _caused_ problems. It has _added_
> > these interdependencies. It hasn't removed a single dependency at any
> > time, it has just added new problems!
>
> What problems are you talking about?
Like you wouldn't know. Look at commit b43376927a that you yourself are
credited with, just a month ago.
Then, do something as simple as
git grep create_freezeable_workthread
and ponder the end results of that grep. If you don't see something wrong,
you're blind.
> > NONE of these are valid explanations at all. You're listing totally
> > theoretical problems, and ignoring all the _real_ problems that trying to
> > freeze kernel threads has _caused_.
>
> Example, please?
Who do you think you are kidding? See above.
And if you think that's an isolated example, look again. And start
grepping for PF_NOFREEZE, and other examples.
The fact is, there is not a *single* reason to freeze kernel threads. But
some rocket scientist decided to, and then screwed everybody else over.
Linus
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2007-04-28 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 136+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2007-04-26 6:04 Back to the future Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 7:28 ` Pekka Enberg
[not found] ` <1177573348.50 25.224.camel@nigel.suspend2.net>
2007-04-26 7:42 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 8:17 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-26 9:28 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 17:29 ` Luca Tettamanti
2007-04-26 16:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 17:03 ` Xavier Bestel
2007-04-26 17:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 20:08 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 20:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 20:50 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 0:10 ` Olivier Galibert
2007-04-27 10:21 ` Daniel Pittman
2007-04-27 23:19 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 21:38 ` Theodore Tso
2007-04-27 10:10 ` Christoph Hellwig
2007-04-26 22:08 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-26 22:20 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 23:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-27 7:51 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-26 17:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 18:22 ` Chase Venters
2007-04-26 18:50 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 19:56 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 4:52 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 6:08 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 6:18 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 6:29 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 6:34 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 6:50 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 7:03 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 7:24 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 9:50 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-04-27 10:12 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 19:07 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-04-28 9:22 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-28 13:37 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-05-03 12:06 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-04 21:52 ` Indan Zupancic
2007-05-05 9:16 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-05 12:02 ` Indan Zupancic
2007-04-28 10:35 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 18:43 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 19:37 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 21:24 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 21:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-27 22:04 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 22:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-27 22:41 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 22:26 ` David Lang
2007-04-27 23:21 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 23:01 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 0:02 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 23:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-27 23:45 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 23:57 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 23:50 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 0:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 6:58 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-04-28 9:16 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-28 18:28 ` David Lang
2007-05-03 17:18 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-07 2:13 ` David Lang
2007-05-07 3:33 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-05-07 12:48 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-07 12:52 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-05-07 14:37 ` david
2007-05-07 19:51 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-07 19:55 ` david
2007-05-07 20:38 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-08 17:36 ` Disconnect
2007-04-27 23:59 ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2007-04-28 0:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-05-05 11:42 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-28 0:50 ` Paul Mackerras
2007-04-28 1:00 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 1:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 0:54 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 1:44 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 2:51 ` Daniel Hazelton
2007-04-28 7:00 ` progress meter in s2disk (was Re: Back to the future.) Pavel Machek
2007-04-28 8:50 ` Back to the future Pavel Machek
2007-04-28 9:24 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 16:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 17:50 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 21:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 23:03 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 23:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-29 0:01 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-29 5:01 ` Bojan Smojver
2007-04-29 3:43 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-04-29 8:57 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-29 8:59 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-29 9:32 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-29 8:23 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-29 9:22 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 18:32 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 19:14 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 18:44 ` David Lang
2007-05-03 15:25 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 22:07 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-28 1:03 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-04-28 1:15 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 0:51 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 1:25 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-05-03 15:10 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-03 16:53 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-05-04 7:52 ` David Greaves
2007-05-04 13:27 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-04-28 0:18 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2007-04-28 1:00 ` Matthew Garrett
2007-04-28 1:05 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2007-05-03 15:14 ` Pavel Machek
2007-06-01 19:00 ` Eric W. Biederman
2007-04-28 1:08 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 20:44 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 19:09 ` Bill Davidsen
2007-04-26 22:40 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 5:41 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-27 14:55 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 21:39 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 22:42 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-26 22:24 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 23:12 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-26 22:49 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 23:27 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-26 22:56 ` David Lang
2007-04-27 0:23 ` Olivier Galibert
2007-04-27 12:49 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 21:26 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 22:12 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 8:38 ` Jan Engelhardt
2007-04-26 9:33 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-28 0:28 ` Bojan Smojver
[not found] <8e5l8-7SD-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8e6Ka-1uR-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8e6TS-1Id-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8efu9-6mF-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8ekWV-6FF-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8el6y-6Sj-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8elpT-7wY-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
2007-04-28 11:04 ` Bodo Eggert
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=alpine.LFD.0.98.0704271647340.9964@woody.linux-foundation.org \
--to=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \
--cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=nigel@nigel.suspend2.net \
--cc=penberg@cs.helsinki.fi \
--cc=rjw@sisk.pl \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.