[LAU] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[LAU] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Grammostola Rosea]

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Hi,

There is an promising discussion on the debian-dev mailinglist. Maybe 
some people who knows more about realtime kernels could join. Also users 
who might want to have an realtime kernel in Debian and/or want help 
testing could join the discussion. I think it would be nice if there is 
also an realtime kernel in Debian or that the default kernel would be 
improved for realtime (audio) usage.


http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe

\r

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From: "Giacomo A. Catenazzi" <cate-8fiUuRrzOP0dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
To: debian-devel-0aAXYlwwYIJuHlm7Suoebg@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: realtime kernel for Debian
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:26:35 +0100
Message-ID: <49C8D17B.7000905-8fiUuRrzOP0dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>

Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
>> Do you really need real time kernel?
>> Debian is a technical driven project, but reading the previous two quotes,
>> "real time" is used as marketing thing.
> 
> It's good to question the use of any feature, but a real-time kernel is
> certainly very useful in many industrial applications and Debian is
> popular in that field. (Don't put a marketing label on anything where
> you are not yourself sure of your expertise.)

Yes, I didn't write very well my sentence: the previous quotes was more
about "there exist rt kernels", "ubuntu has a rt kernel", but not solid
requirements. I had to write some "seems", and I'm sorry for the two
quoted people if it seems an attack.
Anyway, later in the mail, I asked for precise needs, so we could see
better what we should improve.

IMHO most users want a low latency kernel, but not a slower kernel, so
a CONFIG_HZ_1000 would be nice.  But the original post was about
multimedia production (and not reproduction), so the needs are probably
other.

My point was more:
- Debian has not rt kernel. Why? Non DD interested or/and low demand?
   This is an important point. We must not produce a rt-kernel if
   we cannot provide testers and developers (in unstable).
- kernel management is a weak point in distribution: no good method
   for kernel dependencies, using full capabilities, ...

so IMHO we should try harder with the normal kernel, so that we
can use the same infrastructure and testers. If we fail and we
are able to support rt kernels, IMO it is good to provide it in Debian.

The original mail was about "multimedia production" and few year ago kernel
developers had a lot of interaction with music industries.
I'm not an expert in the field, but how far are we in their need with
standard kernels?)


> I do use a real-time kernel on a Debian based system for one of my
> customers (but I have to recompile the kernel anyway because I do other
> customizations) and I have good reasons to do so because I can't suffer
> serial overrun and I must ensure that the serial interrupt handler
> is run in the required time and that no other (kernel) task has higher
> priority.

These *other customizations* are important to rt-kernel. So we need
a person (or more) that know the needs and could support us.
"realtime" alone is only a label ;-)

ciao
	cate


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Re: [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Grammostola Rosea]

Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There is an promising discussion on the debian-dev mailinglist. Maybe 
> some people who knows more about realtime kernels could join. Also 
> users who might want to have an realtime kernel in Debian and/or want 
> help testing could join the discussion. I think it would be nice if 
> there is also an realtime kernel in Debian or that the default kernel 
> would be improved for realtime (audio) usage.
>
>
> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe
Here is the thread about a realtime kernel in Debian:


http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-development/268999-realtime-kernel-debian.html


Kind regards,

\r






>
> \r
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: realtime kernel for Debian
> From:
> "Giacomo A. Catenazzi" <cate@debian.org>
> Date:
> Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:26:35 +0100
> To:
> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
>
> To:
> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
>
>
> Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
>>> Do you really need real time kernel?
>>> Debian is a technical driven project, but reading the previous two 
>>> quotes,
>>> "real time" is used as marketing thing.
>>
>> It's good to question the use of any feature, but a real-time kernel is
>> certainly very useful in many industrial applications and Debian is
>> popular in that field. (Don't put a marketing label on anything where
>> you are not yourself sure of your expertise.)
>
> Yes, I didn't write very well my sentence: the previous quotes was more
> about "there exist rt kernels", "ubuntu has a rt kernel", but not solid
> requirements. I had to write some "seems", and I'm sorry for the two
> quoted people if it seems an attack.
> Anyway, later in the mail, I asked for precise needs, so we could see
> better what we should improve.
>
> IMHO most users want a low latency kernel, but not a slower kernel, so
> a CONFIG_HZ_1000 would be nice.  But the original post was about
> multimedia production (and not reproduction), so the needs are probably
> other.
>
> My point was more:
> - Debian has not rt kernel. Why? Non DD interested or/and low demand?
>   This is an important point. We must not produce a rt-kernel if
>   we cannot provide testers and developers (in unstable).
> - kernel management is a weak point in distribution: no good method
>   for kernel dependencies, using full capabilities, ...
>
> so IMHO we should try harder with the normal kernel, so that we
> can use the same infrastructure and testers. If we fail and we
> are able to support rt kernels, IMO it is good to provide it in Debian.
>
> The original mail was about "multimedia production" and few year ago 
> kernel
> developers had a lot of interaction with music industries.
> I'm not an expert in the field, but how far are we in their need with
> standard kernels?)
>
>
>> I do use a real-time kernel on a Debian based system for one of my
>> customers (but I have to recompile the kernel anyway because I do other
>> customizations) and I have good reasons to do so because I can't suffer
>> serial overrun and I must ensure that the serial interrupt handler
>> is run in the required time and that no other (kernel) task has higher
>> priority.
>
> These *other customizations* are important to rt-kernel. So we need
> a person (or more) that know the needs and could support us.
> "realtime" alone is only a label ;-)
>
> ciao
>     cate
>
>

Re: [64studio-devel] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Simon Lewis]

Maybe I am missing something here but the linux kernel developers are 
concentrating on the 2.6.29 rt kernel with the backing of red hat. This 
is a logical choice. The 2.6.29 kernel is now officially released, this 
kernel is notebook friendly and has the latest drivers. This kernel is 
also available in the 3rd alpha version of Studio64 3.0 and works 
superbly, as does the rest of the Studio64 3.0. Why would anyone 
consider  developing an rt kernel for the out of date debian linux?

bernly.onsidering the notebook friend 

Grammostola Rosea schrieb:
> Grammostola Rosea wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> There is an promising discussion on the debian-dev mailinglist. Maybe 
>> some people who knows more about realtime kernels could join. Also 
>> users who might want to have an realtime kernel in Debian and/or want 
>> help testing could join the discussion. I think it would be nice if 
>> there is also an realtime kernel in Debian or that the default kernel 
>> would be improved for realtime (audio) usage.
>>
>>
>> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe
>>     
> Here is the thread about a realtime kernel in Debian:
>
>
> http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-development/268999-realtime-kernel-debian.html
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> \r
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   
>> \r
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Subject:
>> Re: realtime kernel for Debian
>> From:
>> "Giacomo A. Catenazzi" <cate@debian.org>
>> Date:
>> Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:26:35 +0100
>> To:
>> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
>>
>> To:
>> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
>>
>>
>> Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>>     
>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Do you really need real time kernel?
>>>> Debian is a technical driven project, but reading the previous two 
>>>> quotes,
>>>> "real time" is used as marketing thing.
>>>>         
>>> It's good to question the use of any feature, but a real-time kernel is
>>> certainly very useful in many industrial applications and Debian is
>>> popular in that field. (Don't put a marketing label on anything where
>>> you are not yourself sure of your expertise.)
>>>       
>> Yes, I didn't write very well my sentence: the previous quotes was more
>> about "there exist rt kernels", "ubuntu has a rt kernel", but not solid
>> requirements. I had to write some "seems", and I'm sorry for the two
>> quoted people if it seems an attack.
>> Anyway, later in the mail, I asked for precise needs, so we could see
>> better what we should improve.
>>
>> IMHO most users want a low latency kernel, but not a slower kernel, so
>> a CONFIG_HZ_1000 would be nice.  But the original post was about
>> multimedia production (and not reproduction), so the needs are probably
>> other.
>>
>> My point was more:
>> - Debian has not rt kernel. Why? Non DD interested or/and low demand?
>>   This is an important point. We must not produce a rt-kernel if
>>   we cannot provide testers and developers (in unstable).
>> - kernel management is a weak point in distribution: no good method
>>   for kernel dependencies, using full capabilities, ...
>>
>> so IMHO we should try harder with the normal kernel, so that we
>> can use the same infrastructure and testers. If we fail and we
>> are able to support rt kernels, IMO it is good to provide it in Debian.
>>
>> The original mail was about "multimedia production" and few year ago 
>> kernel
>> developers had a lot of interaction with music industries.
>> I'm not an expert in the field, but how far are we in their need with
>> standard kernels?)
>>
>>
>>     
>>> I do use a real-time kernel on a Debian based system for one of my
>>> customers (but I have to recompile the kernel anyway because I do other
>>> customizations) and I have good reasons to do so because I can't suffer
>>> serial overrun and I must ensure that the serial interrupt handler
>>> is run in the required time and that no other (kernel) task has higher
>>> priority.
>>>       
>> These *other customizations* are important to rt-kernel. So we need
>> a person (or more) that know the needs and could support us.
>> "realtime" alone is only a label ;-)
>>
>> ciao
>>     cate
>>
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> 64studio-devel mailing list
> 64studio-devel@lists.64studio.com
> http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-devel
>
>   

Re: [64studio-devel] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Daniel James]

Hi Simon,

> Why would anyone 
> consider developing an rt kernel for the out of date debian linux?

Debian stable may be older in terms of package versions than other 
distros, but still a lot of bleeding-edge development happens in Debian 
'sid' which trickles down to all the derivative distros, including 
Ubuntu and 64 Studio.

All we do at 64 Studio is tweak packages to give users a better 
out-of-the-box experience for creating multimedia. Most of the credit 
for creating a stable, quality distro should go to the Debian project.

Cheers!

Daniel

Re: [LAD] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Grammostola Rosea]

Hi,

Sorry, but I've to call again...

The developers seems very willing to include a realtime kernel there 
repo. They need some people who wants to build and maintain it. This is 
really  a chance  for  linux audio, especially on Debian.  *This is the 
moment!*

So please consider to offer your help in building, maintaining  and/or 
testing!

Thanks in advance,

\r





Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> Grammostola Rosea wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> There is an promising discussion on the debian-dev mailinglist. Maybe 
>> some people who knows more about realtime kernels could join. Also 
>> users who might want to have an realtime kernel in Debian and/or want 
>> help testing could join the discussion. I think it would be nice if 
>> there is also an realtime kernel in Debian or that the default kernel 
>> would be improved for realtime (audio) usage.
>>
>>
>> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe
> Here is the thread about a realtime kernel in Debian:
>
>
> http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-development/268999-realtime-kernel-debian.html 
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> \r
>
>
>
>
>>
>> \r
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Subject:
>> Re: realtime kernel for Debian
>> From:
>> "Giacomo A. Catenazzi" <cate-8fiUuRrzOP0dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
>> Date:
>> Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:26:35 +0100
>> To:
>> debian-devel-0aAXYlwwYIJuHlm7Suoebg@public.gmane.org
>>
>> To:
>> debian-devel-0aAXYlwwYIJuHlm7Suoebg@public.gmane.org
>>
>>
>> Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
>>>> Do you really need real time kernel?
>>>> Debian is a technical driven project, but reading the previous two 
>>>> quotes,
>>>> "real time" is used as marketing thing.
>>>
>>> It's good to question the use of any feature, but a real-time kernel is
>>> certainly very useful in many industrial applications and Debian is
>>> popular in that field. (Don't put a marketing label on anything where
>>> you are not yourself sure of your expertise.)
>>
>> Yes, I didn't write very well my sentence: the previous quotes was more
>> about "there exist rt kernels", "ubuntu has a rt kernel", but not solid
>> requirements. I had to write some "seems", and I'm sorry for the two
>> quoted people if it seems an attack.
>> Anyway, later in the mail, I asked for precise needs, so we could see
>> better what we should improve.
>>
>> IMHO most users want a low latency kernel, but not a slower kernel, so
>> a CONFIG_HZ_1000 would be nice.  But the original post was about
>> multimedia production (and not reproduction), so the needs are probably
>> other.
>>
>> My point was more:
>> - Debian has not rt kernel. Why? Non DD interested or/and low demand?
>>   This is an important point. We must not produce a rt-kernel if
>>   we cannot provide testers and developers (in unstable).
>> - kernel management is a weak point in distribution: no good method
>>   for kernel dependencies, using full capabilities, ...
>>
>> so IMHO we should try harder with the normal kernel, so that we
>> can use the same infrastructure and testers. If we fail and we
>> are able to support rt kernels, IMO it is good to provide it in Debian.
>>
>> The original mail was about "multimedia production" and few year ago 
>> kernel
>> developers had a lot of interaction with music industries.
>> I'm not an expert in the field, but how far are we in their need with
>> standard kernels?)
>>
>>
>>> I do use a real-time kernel on a Debian based system for one of my
>>> customers (but I have to recompile the kernel anyway because I do other
>>> customizations) and I have good reasons to do so because I can't suffer
>>> serial overrun and I must ensure that the serial interrupt handler
>>> is run in the required time and that no other (kernel) task has higher
>>> priority.
>>
>> These *other customizations* are important to rt-kernel. So we need
>> a person (or more) that know the needs and could support us.
>> "realtime" alone is only a label ;-)
>>
>> ciao
>>     cate
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [LAD] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Ralf Mardorf]

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Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Sorry, but I've to call again...
>
> The developers seems very willing to include a realtime kernel there 
> repo. They need some people who wants to build and maintain it. This is 
> really  a chance  for  linux audio, especially on Debian.  *This is the 
> moment!*
>
> So please consider to offer your help in building, maintaining  and/or 
> testing!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> \r

I often patch vanillas with the rt patch and check them for my hardware,
until now all kernels failed with my hardware. I stopped with 64 Studio
2.1 based on etch running a self compiled kernel 2.6.24.7-rt17 for
Debian based distros. For music I now run a stable Windows, but I will
test any kernel, if someone else will build it.

Best,
Ralf


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Re: [LAU] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Cassiel]

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2009/3/25 Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>

> Hi,
>
> Sorry, but I've to call again...
>
> The developers seems very willing to include a realtime kernel there
> repo. They need some people who wants to build and maintain it. This is
> really  a chance  for  linux audio, especially on Debian.  *This is the
> moment!*
>
> So please consider to offer your help in building, maintaining  and/or
> testing!
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> \r
>

Hi Rosea,

far from being a C skilled programmer I can help in testing and (hopefully)
building RT kernels, so where's the starting point?

r

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Re: [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Uwe Kleine-König]

Hello,

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 09:43:24PM +0100, Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> Sorry, but I've to call again...
>
> The developers seems very willing to include a realtime kernel there  
> repo. They need some people who wants to build and maintain it. This is  
> really  a chance  for  linux audio, especially on Debian.  *This is the  
> moment!*
>
> So please consider to offer your help in building, maintaining  and/or  
> testing!
I don't know x86 at all and the inner rt-things not enough to do this
alone, but I have some knowledge about RT on ARM, the kernel in general
and Debian packaging.  So this is what I can offer.

Best regards
Uwe

-- 
Pengutronix e.K.                              | Uwe Kleine-König            |
Industrial Linux Solutions                    | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |
--
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Re: [LAD] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Thomas Gleixner]

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> I often patch vanillas with the rt patch and check them for my hardware,
> until now all kernels failed with my hardware. I stopped with 64 Studio
> 2.1 based on etch running a self compiled kernel 2.6.24.7-rt17 for
> Debian based distros. For music I now run a stable Windows, but I will
> test any kernel, if someone else will build it.

Does vanilla work on your hardware ? What's the failure which you
observe on your hardware with the -rt patches applied ?

Thanks,

	tglx

Re: [LAD] [Fwd: Re: realtime kernel for Debian]

[Jens M Andreasen]

http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/projects/rt/patch-2.6.29-rt1.bz2

... is out :)

/j


On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 21:43 +0100, Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Sorry, but I've to call again...
> 
> The developers seems very willing to include a realtime kernel there 
> repo. They need some people who wants to build and maintain it. This is 
> really  a chance  for  linux audio, especially on Debian.  *This is the 
> moment!*
> 
> So please consider to offer your help in building, maintaining  and/or 
> testing!
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> \r
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> > Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> There is an promising discussion on the debian-dev mailinglist. Maybe 
> >> some people who knows more about realtime kernels could join. Also 
> >> users who might want to have an realtime kernel in Debian and/or want 
> >> help testing could join the discussion. I think it would be nice if 
> >> there is also an realtime kernel in Debian or that the default kernel 
> >> would be improved for realtime (audio) usage.
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe
> > Here is the thread about a realtime kernel in Debian:
> >
> >
> > http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-development/268999-realtime-kernel-debian.html 
> >
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > \r
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> \r
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Subject:
> >> Re: realtime kernel for Debian
> >> From:
> >> "Giacomo A. Catenazzi" <cate@debian.org>
> >> Date:
> >> Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:26:35 +0100
> >> To:
> >> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> >>
> >> To:
> >> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
> >>>> Do you really need real time kernel?
> >>>> Debian is a technical driven project, but reading the previous two 
> >>>> quotes,
> >>>> "real time" is used as marketing thing.
> >>>
> >>> It's good to question the use of any feature, but a real-time kernel is
> >>> certainly very useful in many industrial applications and Debian is
> >>> popular in that field. (Don't put a marketing label on anything where
> >>> you are not yourself sure of your expertise.)
> >>
> >> Yes, I didn't write very well my sentence: the previous quotes was more
> >> about "there exist rt kernels", "ubuntu has a rt kernel", but not solid
> >> requirements. I had to write some "seems", and I'm sorry for the two
> >> quoted people if it seems an attack.
> >> Anyway, later in the mail, I asked for precise needs, so we could see
> >> better what we should improve.
> >>
> >> IMHO most users want a low latency kernel, but not a slower kernel, so
> >> a CONFIG_HZ_1000 would be nice.  But the original post was about
> >> multimedia production (and not reproduction), so the needs are probably
> >> other.
> >>
> >> My point was more:
> >> - Debian has not rt kernel. Why? Non DD interested or/and low demand?
> >>   This is an important point. We must not produce a rt-kernel if
> >>   we cannot provide testers and developers (in unstable).
> >> - kernel management is a weak point in distribution: no good method
> >>   for kernel dependencies, using full capabilities, ...
> >>
> >> so IMHO we should try harder with the normal kernel, so that we
> >> can use the same infrastructure and testers. If we fail and we
> >> are able to support rt kernels, IMO it is good to provide it in Debian.
> >>
> >> The original mail was about "multimedia production" and few year ago 
> >> kernel
> >> developers had a lot of interaction with music industries.
> >> I'm not an expert in the field, but how far are we in their need with
> >> standard kernels?)
> >>
> >>
> >>> I do use a real-time kernel on a Debian based system for one of my
> >>> customers (but I have to recompile the kernel anyway because I do other
> >>> customizations) and I have good reasons to do so because I can't suffer
> >>> serial overrun and I must ensure that the serial interrupt handler
> >>> is run in the required time and that no other (kernel) task has higher
> >>> priority.
> >>
> >> These *other customizations* are important to rt-kernel. So we need
> >> a person (or more) that know the needs and could support us.
> >> "realtime" alone is only a label ;-)
> >>
> >> ciao
> >>     cate
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
> Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-dev