From: "Andy Lutomirski" <luto@kernel.org>
To: "Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>
Cc: "David Laight" <David.Laight@aculab.com>,
"David Hildenbrand" <david@redhat.com>,
"Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
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Linux-MM <linux-mm@kvack.org>,
"Florian Weimer" <fweimer@redhat.com>,
"Michael Kerrisk" <mtk.manpages@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v1 0/7] Remove in-tree usage of MAP_DENYWRITE
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 17:49:19 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <b629cda1-becd-4725-b16c-13208ff478d3@www.fastmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=whmXTiGUzVrTP=mOPQrg-XOi3R-45hC4dQOqW4JmZdFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, Aug 13, 2021, at 5:31 PM, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 10:18 AM Eric W. Biederman
> <ebiederm@xmission.com> wrote:
> >
> > Florian Weimer, would it be possible to get glibc's ld.so implementation to use
> > MAP_SHARED? Just so people reading the code know what to expect of the
> > kernel? As far as I can tell there is not a practical difference
> > between a read-only MAP_PRIVATE and a read-only MAP_SHARED.
>
> There's a huge difference.
>
> For one, you actually don't necessarily want read-only. Doing COW on
> library images is quite common for things like relocation etc (you'd
> _hope_ everything is PC-relative, but no)
>
> So no. Never EVER use MAP_SHARED unless you literally expect to have
> two different mappings that need to be kept in sync and one writes the
> other.
>
> I'll just repeat: stop arguing about this case. If somebody writes to
> a busy library, THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL BUG, and nobody sane should care
> at all about it apart from the "you get what you deserve".
>
> What's next? Do you think glibc should also map every byte in the user
> address space so that user programs don't get SIGSEGV when they have
> wild pointers?
>
> Again - that's a user BUG and trying to "work around" a wild pointer
> is a worse fix than the problem it tries to fix.
>
> The exact same thing is true for shared library (or executable)
> mappings. Trying to work around people writing to them is *worse* than
> the bug of doing so.
>
> Stop this completely inane discussion already.
>
I’ll bite. How about we attack this in the opposite direction: remove the deny write mechanism entirely.
In my life, I’ve encountered -ETXTBUSY intermittently, and it invariably means that I somehow failed to finish killing a program fast enough for whatever random rebuild I’m doing to succeed. It’s at best erratic — it only applies for static binaries, and it has never once saved me from a problem I care about. If the program I’m recompiling crashes, I don’t care — it’s probably already part way through dying from an unrelated fatal signal. What actually happens is that I see -ETXTBUSY, think “wait, this isn’t Windows, why are there file sharing rules,” then think “wait, Linux has *one* half baked file sharing rule,” and go on with my life. [0]
Seriously, can we deprecate and remove the whole thing?
[0] we have mandatory locks, too. Sigh.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-08-14 0:49 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 86+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-08-12 8:43 [PATCH v1 0/7] Remove in-tree usage of MAP_DENYWRITE David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 8:43 ` [PATCH v1 1/7] binfmt: don't use MAP_DENYWRITE when loading shared libraries via uselib() David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 8:43 ` [PATCH v1 2/7] kernel/fork: factor out atomcially replacing the current MM exe_file David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 9:17 ` Christian Brauner
2021-08-12 8:43 ` [PATCH v1 3/7] kernel/fork: always deny write access to " David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 10:05 ` Christian Brauner
2021-08-12 10:13 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 12:32 ` Christian Brauner
2021-08-12 12:38 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 16:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-12 19:38 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 8:43 ` [PATCH v1 4/7] binfmt: remove in-tree usage of MAP_DENYWRITE David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 8:43 ` [PATCH v1 5/7] mm: remove VM_DENYWRITE David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 8:43 ` [PATCH v1 6/7] mm: ignore MAP_DENYWRITE in ksys_mmap_pgoff() David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 8:43 ` [PATCH v1 7/7] fs: update documentation of get_write_access() and friends David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 12:20 ` [PATCH v1 0/7] Remove in-tree usage of MAP_DENYWRITE Florian Weimer
2021-08-12 12:47 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 16:17 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-12 17:32 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-12 17:35 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-08-12 17:48 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-12 18:01 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-08-12 18:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-12 18:47 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-13 9:05 ` David Laight
2021-08-13 20:17 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-13 20:51 ` Florian Weimer
2021-08-14 0:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-14 0:49 ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2021-08-14 0:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-14 0:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-14 1:57 ` Al Viro
2021-08-14 2:02 ` Al Viro
2021-08-14 9:06 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-14 7:53 ` Christian Brauner
2021-08-14 19:52 ` David Laight
2021-08-26 17:48 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-08-26 21:47 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-26 22:13 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-27 8:22 ` David Laight
2021-08-27 15:58 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-09-01 8:28 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-27 10:18 ` Christian Brauner
2021-08-14 3:04 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-08-17 16:48 ` Removing Mandatory Locks Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-17 16:50 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-18 9:34 ` Rodrigo Campos
2021-08-19 19:18 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-19 20:03 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-08-19 18:39 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-19 19:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-19 19:55 ` Eric Biggers
2021-08-19 20:18 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-19 20:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-19 21:43 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-19 22:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-20 8:30 ` David Laight
2021-08-23 7:55 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-08-23 8:14 ` David Laight
2021-08-20 13:43 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-08-20 16:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-08-20 2:10 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-08-20 6:36 ` Amir Goldstein
2021-08-20 7:14 ` Amir Goldstein
2021-08-20 12:27 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-20 12:38 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-08-20 13:03 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-20 13:11 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-08-20 16:30 ` Kees Cook
2021-08-20 19:17 ` H. Peter Anvin
2021-08-20 21:29 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-20 21:29 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-21 12:45 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-21 12:45 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-23 22:15 ` J. Bruce Fields
2021-08-20 22:31 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-08-18 7:51 ` [PATCH v1 0/7] Remove in-tree usage of MAP_DENYWRITE Christian Brauner
2021-08-18 15:42 ` J. Bruce Fields
2021-08-19 13:56 ` Eric W. Biederman
2021-08-19 14:33 ` J. Bruce Fields
2021-08-20 12:54 ` Jeff Layton
2021-08-20 3:44 ` NeilBrown
2021-08-20 8:25 ` David Laight
2021-08-12 19:24 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-08-12 18:15 ` Florian Weimer
2021-08-12 18:21 ` Linus Torvalds
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