[wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Mathieu Peyréga]

Hello,

I'm wondering if the regulatory DB is up to date for France, especially 
regarding channels in band 5725-5875 MHz

in 
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/sforshee/wireless-regdb.git/tree/db.txt?id=HEAD

I can found (07/09/2017) :

country FR: DFS-ETSI
     (2402 - 2482 @ 40), (20)
     (5170 - 5250 @ 80), (20), AUTO-BW
     (5250 - 5330 @ 80), (20), DFS, AUTO-BW
     (5490 - 5710 @ 160), (27), DFS
     # 60 GHz band channels 1-4, ref: Etsi En 302 567
     (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40)

which as far as I understands it prevents those frequencies being used.

The European Union have taken the following decision :

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=EN 
(or in French : 
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=FR)

where (p14/20, line 61 of the frequencies table) it shoul be allowed in 
E.U. and the last column states that member countries should reflect 
thie E.U. decision at national levels regulations before 2014 July 1st.
I don't know for other countries, but it seems that France as complied 
with this, regarding the document from our national agency (ARCEP) :

https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/14-1263.pdf

on page 23/35, the table gives the exact same condition as the E.U. 
rules. I believe those frequencies should now be allowed in FR regdomain.

Also, I own a Synology RT2600AC routeur, and the regional settigns pages 
allows to set "European Union" which result in the access point 
broadcastin a "EU" regdom that I can not find in the wireless-regdb

Shouldn't it be added in the database ?

regards,

Mathieu Peyréga
-- 
tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59

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Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Ryan Mounce]

Hi Mathieu,

The permitted power within 5725-5875 MHz is only 25mW / 14dBm EIRP, as
far as I am aware this was also the case prior to 2014. This rule does
exist in the regdb for Bulgaria / BG, which is technically correct
however in my opinion should be removed for consistency.

I think the problem with 14dBm being such a low power level is that
its useful range is very limited. There is also the fear that client
devices designed for use outside the EU and not complying with 802.11d
will transmit far beyond the permissible power level in this range
upon associating with even a compliant AP.

Whether for these reasons or others, the convention appears to be to
simply disable this frequency range altogether for EU countries.

Regards,
Ryan Mounce

On 7 September 2017 at 21:49, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm wondering if the regulatory DB is up to date for France, especially
> regarding channels in band 5725-5875 MHz
>
> in
> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/sforshee/wireless-regdb.git/tree/db.txt?id=HEAD
>
> I can found (07/09/2017) :
>
> country FR: DFS-ETSI
>     (2402 - 2482 @ 40), (20)
>     (5170 - 5250 @ 80), (20), AUTO-BW
>     (5250 - 5330 @ 80), (20), DFS, AUTO-BW
>     (5490 - 5710 @ 160), (27), DFS
>     # 60 GHz band channels 1-4, ref: Etsi En 302 567
>     (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40)
>
> which as far as I understands it prevents those frequencies being used.
>
> The European Union have taken the following decision :
>
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=EN
> (or in French :
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=FR)
>
> where (p14/20, line 61 of the frequencies table) it shoul be allowed in E.U.
> and the last column states that member countries should reflect thie E.U.
> decision at national levels regulations before 2014 July 1st.
> I don't know for other countries, but it seems that France as complied with
> this, regarding the document from our national agency (ARCEP) :
>
> https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/14-1263.pdf
>
> on page 23/35, the table gives the exact same condition as the E.U. rules. I
> believe those frequencies should now be allowed in FR regdomain.
>
> Also, I own a Synology RT2600AC routeur, and the regional settigns pages
> allows to set "European Union" which result in the access point broadcastin
> a "EU" regdom that I can not find in the wireless-regdb
>
> Shouldn't it be added in the database ?
>
> regards,
>
> Mathieu Peyréga
> --
> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>
> _______________________________________________
> wireless-regdb mailing list
> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb

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Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Mathieu Peyréga]

Hello

Sorry, I'm kind of discovering all those wifi stuff and I'm not sure to 
follow your argument.

What I can see in current DB version is that some E.U. countries have it 
enabled :

e.g. Germany :

|country DE: DFS-ETSI (2400 - 2483.5 @ 40), (100 mW) (5150 - 5250 @ 80), 
(100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR, AUTO-BW (5250 - 5350 @ 80), (100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR, 
DFS, AUTO-BW (5470 - 5725 @ 160), (500 mW), DFS # short range devices 
(ETSI EN 300 440-1) (5725 - 5875 @ 80), (25 mW) # 60 GHz band channels 
1-4 (ETSI EN 302 567) (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40) |

Regards,

Mathieu Peyrega


Le 07/09/2017 à 14:38, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
> Hi Mathieu,
>
> The permitted power within 5725-5875 MHz is only 25mW / 14dBm EIRP, as
> far as I am aware this was also the case prior to 2014. This rule does
> exist in the regdb for Bulgaria / BG, which is technically correct
> however in my opinion should be removed for consistency.
>
> I think the problem with 14dBm being such a low power level is that
> its useful range is very limited. There is also the fear that client
> devices designed for use outside the EU and not complying with 802.11d
> will transmit far beyond the permissible power level in this range
> upon associating with even a compliant AP.
>
> Whether for these reasons or others, the convention appears to be to
> simply disable this frequency range altogether for EU countries.
>
> Regards,
> Ryan Mounce
>
> On 7 September 2017 at 21:49, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm wondering if the regulatory DB is up to date for France, especially
>> regarding channels in band 5725-5875 MHz
>>
>> in
>> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/sforshee/wireless-regdb.git/tree/db.txt?id=HEAD
>>
>> I can found (07/09/2017) :
>>
>> country FR: DFS-ETSI
>>      (2402 - 2482 @ 40), (20)
>>      (5170 - 5250 @ 80), (20), AUTO-BW
>>      (5250 - 5330 @ 80), (20), DFS, AUTO-BW
>>      (5490 - 5710 @ 160), (27), DFS
>>      # 60 GHz band channels 1-4, ref: Etsi En 302 567
>>      (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40)
>>
>> which as far as I understands it prevents those frequencies being used.
>>
>> The European Union have taken the following decision :
>>
>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=EN
>> (or in French :
>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=FR)
>>
>> where (p14/20, line 61 of the frequencies table) it shoul be allowed in E.U.
>> and the last column states that member countries should reflect thie E.U.
>> decision at national levels regulations before 2014 July 1st.
>> I don't know for other countries, but it seems that France as complied with
>> this, regarding the document from our national agency (ARCEP) :
>>
>> https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/14-1263.pdf
>>
>> on page 23/35, the table gives the exact same condition as the E.U. rules. I
>> believe those frequencies should now be allowed in FR regdomain.
>>
>> Also, I own a Synology RT2600AC routeur, and the regional settigns pages
>> allows to set "European Union" which result in the access point broadcastin
>> a "EU" regdom that I can not find in the wireless-regdb
>>
>> Shouldn't it be added in the database ?
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Mathieu Peyréga
>> --
>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wireless-regdb mailing list
>> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
>> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb


-- 
tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59


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wireless-regdb mailing list
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Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Ryan Mounce]

On 7 September 2017 at 22:13, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello
>
> Sorry, I'm kind of discovering all those wifi stuff and I'm not sure to
> follow your argument.
>
> What I can see in current DB version is that some E.U. countries have it
> enabled :
>
> e.g. Germany :
>
> |country DE: DFS-ETSI (2400 - 2483.5 @ 40), (100 mW) (5150 - 5250 @ 80),
> (100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR, AUTO-BW (5250 - 5350 @ 80), (100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR, DFS,
> AUTO-BW (5470 - 5725 @ 160), (500 mW), DFS # short range devices (ETSI EN
> 300 440-1) (5725 - 5875 @ 80), (25 mW) # 60 GHz band channels 1-4 (ETSI EN
> 302 567) (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40) |

Correct, I missed that as they are using different (yet equivalent) syntax.

So this range is defined for BG, DE, NL. This is still very much the
exception rather than the norm.

I maintain my opinion that these ranges should be removed on the basis
that it is very low power and poses a risk in the presence of
non-compliant devices.

>
> Regards,
>
> Mathieu Peyrega
>
>
>
> Le 07/09/2017 à 14:38, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Mathieu,
>>
>> The permitted power within 5725-5875 MHz is only 25mW / 14dBm EIRP, as
>> far as I am aware this was also the case prior to 2014. This rule does
>> exist in the regdb for Bulgaria / BG, which is technically correct
>> however in my opinion should be removed for consistency.
>>
>> I think the problem with 14dBm being such a low power level is that
>> its useful range is very limited. There is also the fear that client
>> devices designed for use outside the EU and not complying with 802.11d
>> will transmit far beyond the permissible power level in this range
>> upon associating with even a compliant AP.
>>
>> Whether for these reasons or others, the convention appears to be to
>> simply disable this frequency range altogether for EU countries.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ryan Mounce
>>
>> On 7 September 2017 at 21:49, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if the regulatory DB is up to date for France, especially
>>> regarding channels in band 5725-5875 MHz
>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/sforshee/wireless-regdb.git/tree/db.txt?id=HEAD
>>>
>>> I can found (07/09/2017) :
>>>
>>> country FR: DFS-ETSI
>>>      (2402 - 2482 @ 40), (20)
>>>      (5170 - 5250 @ 80), (20), AUTO-BW
>>>      (5250 - 5330 @ 80), (20), DFS, AUTO-BW
>>>      (5490 - 5710 @ 160), (27), DFS
>>>      # 60 GHz band channels 1-4, ref: Etsi En 302 567
>>>      (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40)
>>>
>>> which as far as I understands it prevents those frequencies being used.
>>>
>>> The European Union have taken the following decision :
>>>
>>>
>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=EN
>>> (or in French :
>>>
>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=FR)
>>>
>>> where (p14/20, line 61 of the frequencies table) it shoul be allowed in
>>> E.U.
>>> and the last column states that member countries should reflect thie E.U.
>>> decision at national levels regulations before 2014 July 1st.
>>> I don't know for other countries, but it seems that France as complied
>>> with
>>> this, regarding the document from our national agency (ARCEP) :
>>>
>>> https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/14-1263.pdf
>>>
>>> on page 23/35, the table gives the exact same condition as the E.U.
>>> rules. I
>>> believe those frequencies should now be allowed in FR regdomain.
>>>
>>> Also, I own a Synology RT2600AC routeur, and the regional settigns pages
>>> allows to set "European Union" which result in the access point
>>> broadcastin
>>> a "EU" regdom that I can not find in the wireless-regdb
>>>
>>> Shouldn't it be added in the database ?
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> Mathieu Peyréga
>>> --
>>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> wireless-regdb mailing list
>>> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
>>> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb
>
>
>
> --
> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>

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wireless-regdb mailing list
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http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb

Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Mathieu Peyréga]

I'll just give the context why I got interested into those Wifi reguations.

I recently bought a DJI Spark UAV, which relies on those exact 5.8 GHz 
frequencies for controlling, under the WiFi standard (so channels 149 to 
165). This is the vendor intended behaviour in any part of the World.
The control device can be your regular Android smartphone (that is the 
client) flying device being the Access point.

It happens that many E.U. customers are complaining that this is not 
working properly (I'm amongst them).
When I check which Country Code is broadcasted by the Flying part 
(access point), I can see "FR" (this is automatically set from GPS 
onboard the device). My guess is that DJI has some kind of custom "FR" 
database on the Spark device with those fequencies enabled, but on the 
client side, most Android phones in E.U. will rely on this code and 
802.11d mecanisms and then are not able to use those channels.

I understand that this example is probably slightly outside the scope of 
this mailing list.


Le 07/09/2017 à 14:52, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
> On 7 September 2017 at 22:13, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> Sorry, I'm kind of discovering all those wifi stuff and I'm not sure to
>> follow your argument.
>>
>> What I can see in current DB version is that some E.U. countries have it
>> enabled :
>>
>> e.g. Germany :
>>
>> |country DE: DFS-ETSI (2400 - 2483.5 @ 40), (100 mW) (5150 - 5250 @ 80),
>> (100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR, AUTO-BW (5250 - 5350 @ 80), (100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR, DFS,
>> AUTO-BW (5470 - 5725 @ 160), (500 mW), DFS # short range devices (ETSI EN
>> 300 440-1) (5725 - 5875 @ 80), (25 mW) # 60 GHz band channels 1-4 (ETSI EN
>> 302 567) (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40) |
> Correct, I missed that as they are using different (yet equivalent) syntax.
>
> So this range is defined for BG, DE, NL. This is still very much the
> exception rather than the norm.
>
> I maintain my opinion that these ranges should be removed on the basis
> that it is very low power and poses a risk in the presence of
> non-compliant devices.
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Mathieu Peyrega
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 07/09/2017 à 14:38, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
>>> Hi Mathieu,
>>>
>>> The permitted power within 5725-5875 MHz is only 25mW / 14dBm EIRP, as
>>> far as I am aware this was also the case prior to 2014. This rule does
>>> exist in the regdb for Bulgaria / BG, which is technically correct
>>> however in my opinion should be removed for consistency.
>>>
>>> I think the problem with 14dBm being such a low power level is that
>>> its useful range is very limited. There is also the fear that client
>>> devices designed for use outside the EU and not complying with 802.11d
>>> will transmit far beyond the permissible power level in this range
>>> upon associating with even a compliant AP.
>>>
>>> Whether for these reasons or others, the convention appears to be to
>>> simply disable this frequency range altogether for EU countries.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ryan Mounce
>>>
>>> On 7 September 2017 at 21:49, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering if the regulatory DB is up to date for France, especially
>>>> regarding channels in band 5725-5875 MHz
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/sforshee/wireless-regdb.git/tree/db.txt?id=HEAD
>>>>
>>>> I can found (07/09/2017) :
>>>>
>>>> country FR: DFS-ETSI
>>>>       (2402 - 2482 @ 40), (20)
>>>>       (5170 - 5250 @ 80), (20), AUTO-BW
>>>>       (5250 - 5330 @ 80), (20), DFS, AUTO-BW
>>>>       (5490 - 5710 @ 160), (27), DFS
>>>>       # 60 GHz band channels 1-4, ref: Etsi En 302 567
>>>>       (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40)
>>>>
>>>> which as far as I understands it prevents those frequencies being used.
>>>>
>>>> The European Union have taken the following decision :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=EN
>>>> (or in French :
>>>>
>>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=FR)
>>>>
>>>> where (p14/20, line 61 of the frequencies table) it shoul be allowed in
>>>> E.U.
>>>> and the last column states that member countries should reflect thie E.U.
>>>> decision at national levels regulations before 2014 July 1st.
>>>> I don't know for other countries, but it seems that France as complied
>>>> with
>>>> this, regarding the document from our national agency (ARCEP) :
>>>>
>>>> https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/14-1263.pdf
>>>>
>>>> on page 23/35, the table gives the exact same condition as the E.U.
>>>> rules. I
>>>> believe those frequencies should now be allowed in FR regdomain.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I own a Synology RT2600AC routeur, and the regional settigns pages
>>>> allows to set "European Union" which result in the access point
>>>> broadcastin
>>>> a "EU" regdom that I can not find in the wireless-regdb
>>>>
>>>> Shouldn't it be added in the database ?
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>>
>>>> Mathieu Peyréga
>>>> --
>>>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> wireless-regdb mailing list
>>>> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
>>>> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb
>>
>>
>> --
>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>>

-- 
tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59


_______________________________________________
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Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Ryan Mounce]

On 7 September 2017 at 22:36, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll just give the context why I got interested into those Wifi reguations.
>
> I recently bought a DJI Spark UAV, which relies on those exact 5.8 GHz
> frequencies for controlling, under the WiFi standard (so channels 149 to
> 165). This is the vendor intended behaviour in any part of the World.
> The control device can be your regular Android smartphone (that is the
> client) flying device being the Access point.
>
> It happens that many E.U. customers are complaining that this is not working
> properly (I'm amongst them).
> When I check which Country Code is broadcasted by the Flying part (access
> point), I can see "FR" (this is automatically set from GPS onboard the
> device). My guess is that DJI has some kind of custom "FR" database on the
> Spark device with those fequencies enabled, but on the client side, most
> Android phones in E.U. will rely on this code and 802.11d mecanisms and then
> are not able to use those channels.

You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d
Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?

I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world
including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international market)
the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice with high
power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.

Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device compatibility.

2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is polluted
in every country.
UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they are
indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used outdoors,
unlike a home WiFi AP)
UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS is
still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would have to
scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the most
limited range.

So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are
broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with
either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in
violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their problem
(and unfortunately also their customers').

>
> I understand that this example is probably slightly outside the scope of
> this mailing list.
>
>
>
> Le 07/09/2017 à 14:52, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
>>
>> On 7 September 2017 at 22:13, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello
>>>
>>> Sorry, I'm kind of discovering all those wifi stuff and I'm not sure to
>>> follow your argument.
>>>
>>> What I can see in current DB version is that some E.U. countries have it
>>> enabled :
>>>
>>> e.g. Germany :
>>>
>>> |country DE: DFS-ETSI (2400 - 2483.5 @ 40), (100 mW) (5150 - 5250 @ 80),
>>> (100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR, AUTO-BW (5250 - 5350 @ 80), (100 mW), NO-OUTDOOR,
>>> DFS,
>>> AUTO-BW (5470 - 5725 @ 160), (500 mW), DFS # short range devices (ETSI EN
>>> 300 440-1) (5725 - 5875 @ 80), (25 mW) # 60 GHz band channels 1-4 (ETSI
>>> EN
>>> 302 567) (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40) |
>>
>> Correct, I missed that as they are using different (yet equivalent)
>> syntax.
>>
>> So this range is defined for BG, DE, NL. This is still very much the
>> exception rather than the norm.
>>
>> I maintain my opinion that these ranges should be removed on the basis
>> that it is very low power and poses a risk in the presence of
>> non-compliant devices.
>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Mathieu Peyrega
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 07/09/2017 à 14:38, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mathieu,
>>>>
>>>> The permitted power within 5725-5875 MHz is only 25mW / 14dBm EIRP, as
>>>> far as I am aware this was also the case prior to 2014. This rule does
>>>> exist in the regdb for Bulgaria / BG, which is technically correct
>>>> however in my opinion should be removed for consistency.
>>>>
>>>> I think the problem with 14dBm being such a low power level is that
>>>> its useful range is very limited. There is also the fear that client
>>>> devices designed for use outside the EU and not complying with 802.11d
>>>> will transmit far beyond the permissible power level in this range
>>>> upon associating with even a compliant AP.
>>>>
>>>> Whether for these reasons or others, the convention appears to be to
>>>> simply disable this frequency range altogether for EU countries.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ryan Mounce
>>>>
>>>> On 7 September 2017 at 21:49, Mathieu Peyréga
>>>> <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering if the regulatory DB is up to date for France, especially
>>>>> regarding channels in band 5725-5875 MHz
>>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/sforshee/wireless-regdb.git/tree/db.txt?id=HEAD
>>>>>
>>>>> I can found (07/09/2017) :
>>>>>
>>>>> country FR: DFS-ETSI
>>>>>       (2402 - 2482 @ 40), (20)
>>>>>       (5170 - 5250 @ 80), (20), AUTO-BW
>>>>>       (5250 - 5330 @ 80), (20), DFS, AUTO-BW
>>>>>       (5490 - 5710 @ 160), (27), DFS
>>>>>       # 60 GHz band channels 1-4, ref: Etsi En 302 567
>>>>>       (57000 - 66000 @ 2160), (40)
>>>>>
>>>>> which as far as I understands it prevents those frequencies being used.
>>>>>
>>>>> The European Union have taken the following decision :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=EN
>>>>> (or in French :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0752&from=FR)
>>>>>
>>>>> where (p14/20, line 61 of the frequencies table) it shoul be allowed in
>>>>> E.U.
>>>>> and the last column states that member countries should reflect thie
>>>>> E.U.
>>>>> decision at national levels regulations before 2014 July 1st.
>>>>> I don't know for other countries, but it seems that France as complied
>>>>> with
>>>>> this, regarding the document from our national agency (ARCEP) :
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/14-1263.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> on page 23/35, the table gives the exact same condition as the E.U.
>>>>> rules. I
>>>>> believe those frequencies should now be allowed in FR regdomain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I own a Synology RT2600AC routeur, and the regional settigns
>>>>> pages
>>>>> allows to set "European Union" which result in the access point
>>>>> broadcastin
>>>>> a "EU" regdom that I can not find in the wireless-regdb
>>>>>
>>>>> Shouldn't it be added in the database ?
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mathieu Peyréga
>>>>> --
>>>>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> wireless-regdb mailing list
>>>>> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
>>>>> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>>>
>
> --
> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>

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Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Mathieu Peyréga]

Hello,

unfortunately, my wifi skills are not (yet ?) allowing me to track 
further than what the "iw reg get" command tells me (confirmed by some 
off the shelf Wifi analyzer sofwares).
Do you have pointers/tutorial to help me doing that ?

Further reading your answer, my guess is that DJI has complied to UNII-3 
choice. At least on their website Spark spec page, they clearly give the 
good max power figures and make the difference between FCC and EU areas.

This leads to my concern about why not adding the matching rules in the 
DB for EU countries that have transposed it into their laws.
Is this regulatory DB supposed to strictly reflect the current state of 
local regulations or doe it also endorse a higher level of 
"responsability" in order to prevent issues with non complient devices 
as I understand your fears ?

Regards


Le 07/09/2017 à 15:44, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
> You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d
> Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?
>
> I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world
> including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international market)
> the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice with high
> power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.
>
> Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device compatibility.
>
> 2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is polluted
> in every country.
> UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they are
> indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used outdoors,
> unlike a home WiFi AP)
> UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
> UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS is
> still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would have to
> scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
> UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the most
> limited range.
>
> So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are
> broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with
> either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in
> violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their problem
> (and unfortunately also their customers').
>

-- 
tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59


_______________________________________________
wireless-regdb mailing list
wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb

Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Ryan Mounce]

On 7 September 2017 at 23:33, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> unfortunately, my wifi skills are not (yet ?) allowing me to track further
> than what the "iw reg get" command tells me (confirmed by some off the shelf
> Wifi analyzer sofwares).
> Do you have pointers/tutorial to help me doing that ?

Try this

# find interface name
iw dev
# perform scan on interface
iw dev wlan0 scan -u

This previously dumped the country IE in a nice readable form, however
it no longer does on my device running LEDE master so you may not have
any luck depending on how new your distro is.

Typically for this task I would use monitor mode + Wireshark or my
favoured (sadly proprietary) WiFi surveying app, however I can only
provide advise for macOS.

>
> Further reading your answer, my guess is that DJI has complied to UNII-3
> choice. At least on their website Spark spec page, they clearly give the
> good max power figures and make the difference between FCC and EU areas.
>
> This leads to my concern about why not adding the matching rules in the DB
> for EU countries that have transposed it into their laws.
> Is this regulatory DB supposed to strictly reflect the current state of
> local regulations or doe it also endorse a higher level of "responsability"
> in order to prevent issues with non complient devices as I understand your
> fears ?

The regdb is only used in practice for 802.11 rather than as a
universal dictionary for radio regulations. My personal opinion is
that it should first reflect local regulations, and then subsequently
reflect established industry conventions that are more restrictive. In
this instance, the industry convention appears to be disabling the
UNII-3 range in Europe and I happen to agree more for practical
reasons than any sense of 'responsibility'.

>
> Regards
>
>
> Le 07/09/2017 à 15:44, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
>>
>> You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d
>> Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?
>>
>> I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world
>> including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international market)
>> the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice with high
>> power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.
>>
>> Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device
>> compatibility.
>>
>> 2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is polluted
>> in every country.
>> UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they are
>> indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used outdoors,
>> unlike a home WiFi AP)
>> UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
>> UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS is
>> still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would have to
>> scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
>> UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the most
>> limited range.
>>
>> So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are
>> broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with
>> either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in
>> violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their problem
>> (and unfortunately also their customers').
>>
>
> --
> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>

_______________________________________________
wireless-regdb mailing list
wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb

Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Maximilian Engelhardt]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6360 bytes --]

Hi,

I sent the patch to add the Frequency range from 5725 to 5875 MHz in Germany 
so I can give you some background on this.
What I'm writing is only valid for Germany, but since it's all based on 
European regulations it's probably very similar in other European countries.

In Germany there are three bands allowed for wireless LAN (WLAN) usage in the 
5 GHz band  [1]:

5150 - 5250 MHz (indoor only)
5250 - 5350 MHz (indoor only)
5470 - 5725 MHz (indoor and outdoor)

However the 5470 - 5725 MHz band is only allowed for fixed outdoor 
installations (this is not stated directly in the legal document but I have 
been told it's interpreted in this way. It's however explicitly stated that 
usage for aircraft communication is not allowed). So for for non-fixed outdoor 
setups none of these 5 GHz bands can be used.


Additionally to the official wireless LAN bands there are short range devices 
(SRD) bands. These are similar to the ISM bands and often share the same 
frequency and power regulations, but unlike the ISM bands which are only 
allowed for industrial, scientific or medical applications the SRD bands can be 
used for data communication.
There exists a frequency range from 5725 - 5875 MHz as SRD band (also an ISM 
band) with a maximum power of 25 mW [2]. While this is not specifically 
regulated for wireless LAN usage, is can be legally transmitted in this band 
following the power restriction. There are also no restrictions to indoor or 
outdoor usage. So this is the only 5GHz band in Germany that can be legally 
used for non-fixed outdoor equipment using wireless LAN.
Power on this band is limited but there may be applications where this is not 
a problem, e.g. if you have line of sight communication or don't need to 
transfer much data.

Because of this I see no reason why this frequency range should be removed 
from the database. It has advantages over the other 5 GHz bands and it can be 
legally used. I would find it annoying not being able to use it while I'm 
legally allowed to and not having another option available.

Regards,
Maxi

[1] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
2010_07_WLAN_5GHz_pdf.pdf
[2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
2014_69_SRD_pdf.pdf

On Freitag, 8. September 2017 00:15:34 CEST Ryan Mounce wrote:
> On 7 September 2017 at 23:33, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > unfortunately, my wifi skills are not (yet ?) allowing me to track further
> > than what the "iw reg get" command tells me (confirmed by some off the
> > shelf Wifi analyzer sofwares).
> > Do you have pointers/tutorial to help me doing that ?
> 
> Try this
> 
> # find interface name
> iw dev
> # perform scan on interface
> iw dev wlan0 scan -u
> 
> This previously dumped the country IE in a nice readable form, however
> it no longer does on my device running LEDE master so you may not have
> any luck depending on how new your distro is.
> 
> Typically for this task I would use monitor mode + Wireshark or my
> favoured (sadly proprietary) WiFi surveying app, however I can only
> provide advise for macOS.
> 
> > Further reading your answer, my guess is that DJI has complied to UNII-3
> > choice. At least on their website Spark spec page, they clearly give the
> > good max power figures and make the difference between FCC and EU areas.
> > 
> > This leads to my concern about why not adding the matching rules in the DB
> > for EU countries that have transposed it into their laws.
> > Is this regulatory DB supposed to strictly reflect the current state of
> > local regulations or doe it also endorse a higher level of
> > "responsability"
> > in order to prevent issues with non complient devices as I understand your
> > fears ?
> 
> The regdb is only used in practice for 802.11 rather than as a
> universal dictionary for radio regulations. My personal opinion is
> that it should first reflect local regulations, and then subsequently
> reflect established industry conventions that are more restrictive. In
> this instance, the industry convention appears to be disabling the
> UNII-3 range in Europe and I happen to agree more for practical
> reasons than any sense of 'responsibility'.
> 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Le 07/09/2017 à 15:44, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
> >> You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d
> >> Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?
> >> 
> >> I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world
> >> including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international market)
> >> the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice with high
> >> power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.
> >> 
> >> Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device
> >> compatibility.
> >> 
> >> 2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is polluted
> >> in every country.
> >> UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they are
> >> indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used outdoors,
> >> unlike a home WiFi AP)
> >> UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
> >> UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS is
> >> still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would have to
> >> scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
> >> UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the most
> >> limited range.
> >> 
> >> So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are
> >> broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with
> >> either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in
> >> violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their problem
> >> (and unfortunately also their customers').
> > 
> > --
> > tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
> 
> _______________________________________________
> wireless-regdb mailing list
> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb


[-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 170 bytes --]

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Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Mathieu Peyréga]

Hello,

thank you for your insights !

Not all EU mandatorily share the exact same rules, but the doument I 
referenced in my first post says that the values should be the minimal ones.
If a country wish to allow more power in a given band, it can do so 
(most often will not).

As a user, I can says that the DJI Spark is a good example of device 
that works well on the SRD band, despite the limited power. It's quite 
annoying that this band is not allowed by current database.

Best regards,

Mathieu Peyréga

Le 13/09/2017 à 15:55, Maximilian Engelhardt a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I sent the patch to add the Frequency range from 5725 to 5875 MHz in Germany
> so I can give you some background on this.
> What I'm writing is only valid for Germany, but since it's all based on
> European regulations it's probably very similar in other European countries.
>
> In Germany there are three bands allowed for wireless LAN (WLAN) usage in the
> 5 GHz band  [1]:
>
> 5150 - 5250 MHz (indoor only)
> 5250 - 5350 MHz (indoor only)
> 5470 - 5725 MHz (indoor and outdoor)
>
> However the 5470 - 5725 MHz band is only allowed for fixed outdoor
> installations (this is not stated directly in the legal document but I have
> been told it's interpreted in this way. It's however explicitly stated that
> usage for aircraft communication is not allowed). So for for non-fixed outdoor
> setups none of these 5 GHz bands can be used.
>
>
> Additionally to the official wireless LAN bands there are short range devices
> (SRD) bands. These are similar to the ISM bands and often share the same
> frequency and power regulations, but unlike the ISM bands which are only
> allowed for industrial, scientific or medical applications the SRD bands can be
> used for data communication.
> There exists a frequency range from 5725 - 5875 MHz as SRD band (also an ISM
> band) with a maximum power of 25 mW [2]. While this is not specifically
> regulated for wireless LAN usage, is can be legally transmitted in this band
> following the power restriction. There are also no restrictions to indoor or
> outdoor usage. So this is the only 5GHz band in Germany that can be legally
> used for non-fixed outdoor equipment using wireless LAN.
> Power on this band is limited but there may be applications where this is not
> a problem, e.g. if you have line of sight communication or don't need to
> transfer much data.
>
> Because of this I see no reason why this frequency range should be removed
> from the database. It has advantages over the other 5 GHz bands and it can be
> legally used. I would find it annoying not being able to use it while I'm
> legally allowed to and not having another option available.
>
> Regards,
> Maxi
>
> [1] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
> Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
> 2010_07_WLAN_5GHz_pdf.pdf
> [2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
> Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
> 2014_69_SRD_pdf.pdf
>
> On Freitag, 8. September 2017 00:15:34 CEST Ryan Mounce wrote:
>> On 7 September 2017 at 23:33, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> unfortunately, my wifi skills are not (yet ?) allowing me to track further
>>> than what the "iw reg get" command tells me (confirmed by some off the
>>> shelf Wifi analyzer sofwares).
>>> Do you have pointers/tutorial to help me doing that ?
>> Try this
>>
>> # find interface name
>> iw dev
>> # perform scan on interface
>> iw dev wlan0 scan -u
>>
>> This previously dumped the country IE in a nice readable form, however
>> it no longer does on my device running LEDE master so you may not have
>> any luck depending on how new your distro is.
>>
>> Typically for this task I would use monitor mode + Wireshark or my
>> favoured (sadly proprietary) WiFi surveying app, however I can only
>> provide advise for macOS.
>>
>>> Further reading your answer, my guess is that DJI has complied to UNII-3
>>> choice. At least on their website Spark spec page, they clearly give the
>>> good max power figures and make the difference between FCC and EU areas.
>>>
>>> This leads to my concern about why not adding the matching rules in the DB
>>> for EU countries that have transposed it into their laws.
>>> Is this regulatory DB supposed to strictly reflect the current state of
>>> local regulations or doe it also endorse a higher level of
>>> "responsability"
>>> in order to prevent issues with non complient devices as I understand your
>>> fears ?
>> The regdb is only used in practice for 802.11 rather than as a
>> universal dictionary for radio regulations. My personal opinion is
>> that it should first reflect local regulations, and then subsequently
>> reflect established industry conventions that are more restrictive. In
>> this instance, the industry convention appears to be disabling the
>> UNII-3 range in Europe and I happen to agree more for practical
>> reasons than any sense of 'responsibility'.
>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Le 07/09/2017 à 15:44, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
>>>> You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d
>>>> Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?
>>>>
>>>> I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world
>>>> including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international market)
>>>> the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice with high
>>>> power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.
>>>>
>>>> Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device
>>>> compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> 2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is polluted
>>>> in every country.
>>>> UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they are
>>>> indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used outdoors,
>>>> unlike a home WiFi AP)
>>>> UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
>>>> UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS is
>>>> still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would have to
>>>> scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
>>>> UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the most
>>>> limited range.
>>>>
>>>> So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are
>>>> broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with
>>>> either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in
>>>> violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their problem
>>>> (and unfortunately also their customers').
>>> --
>>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>> _______________________________________________
>> wireless-regdb mailing list
>> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
>> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb


-- 
tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59


_______________________________________________
wireless-regdb mailing list
wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb

Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[Mathieu Peyréga]

Hello,

unless i'm wrong, it seems that those questions about 5GHz band in EU 
(in general) ad in France (in particular) have not received "official" 
answer.

Best regards,

Mathieu

Le 13/09/2017 à 15:55, Maximilian Engelhardt a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I sent the patch to add the Frequency range from 5725 to 5875 MHz in Germany
> so I can give you some background on this.
> What I'm writing is only valid for Germany, but since it's all based on
> European regulations it's probably very similar in other European countries.
>
> In Germany there are three bands allowed for wireless LAN (WLAN) usage in the
> 5 GHz band  [1]:
>
> 5150 - 5250 MHz (indoor only)
> 5250 - 5350 MHz (indoor only)
> 5470 - 5725 MHz (indoor and outdoor)
>
> However the 5470 - 5725 MHz band is only allowed for fixed outdoor
> installations (this is not stated directly in the legal document but I have
> been told it's interpreted in this way. It's however explicitly stated that
> usage for aircraft communication is not allowed). So for for non-fixed outdoor
> setups none of these 5 GHz bands can be used.
>
>
> Additionally to the official wireless LAN bands there are short range devices
> (SRD) bands. These are similar to the ISM bands and often share the same
> frequency and power regulations, but unlike the ISM bands which are only
> allowed for industrial, scientific or medical applications the SRD bands can be
> used for data communication.
> There exists a frequency range from 5725 - 5875 MHz as SRD band (also an ISM
> band) with a maximum power of 25 mW [2]. While this is not specifically
> regulated for wireless LAN usage, is can be legally transmitted in this band
> following the power restriction. There are also no restrictions to indoor or
> outdoor usage. So this is the only 5GHz band in Germany that can be legally
> used for non-fixed outdoor equipment using wireless LAN.
> Power on this band is limited but there may be applications where this is not
> a problem, e.g. if you have line of sight communication or don't need to
> transfer much data.
>
> Because of this I see no reason why this frequency range should be removed
> from the database. It has advantages over the other 5 GHz bands and it can be
> legally used. I would find it annoying not being able to use it while I'm
> legally allowed to and not having another option available.
>
> Regards,
> Maxi
>
> [1] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
> Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
> 2010_07_WLAN_5GHz_pdf.pdf
> [2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
> Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
> 2014_69_SRD_pdf.pdf
>
> On Freitag, 8. September 2017 00:15:34 CEST Ryan Mounce wrote:
>> On 7 September 2017 at 23:33, Mathieu Peyréga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> unfortunately, my wifi skills are not (yet ?) allowing me to track further
>>> than what the "iw reg get" command tells me (confirmed by some off the
>>> shelf Wifi analyzer sofwares).
>>> Do you have pointers/tutorial to help me doing that ?
>> Try this
>>
>> # find interface name
>> iw dev
>> # perform scan on interface
>> iw dev wlan0 scan -u
>>
>> This previously dumped the country IE in a nice readable form, however
>> it no longer does on my device running LEDE master so you may not have
>> any luck depending on how new your distro is.
>>
>> Typically for this task I would use monitor mode + Wireshark or my
>> favoured (sadly proprietary) WiFi surveying app, however I can only
>> provide advise for macOS.
>>
>>> Further reading your answer, my guess is that DJI has complied to UNII-3
>>> choice. At least on their website Spark spec page, they clearly give the
>>> good max power figures and make the difference between FCC and EU areas.
>>>
>>> This leads to my concern about why not adding the matching rules in the DB
>>> for EU countries that have transposed it into their laws.
>>> Is this regulatory DB supposed to strictly reflect the current state of
>>> local regulations or doe it also endorse a higher level of
>>> "responsability"
>>> in order to prevent issues with non complient devices as I understand your
>>> fears ?
>> The regdb is only used in practice for 802.11 rather than as a
>> universal dictionary for radio regulations. My personal opinion is
>> that it should first reflect local regulations, and then subsequently
>> reflect established industry conventions that are more restrictive. In
>> this instance, the industry convention appears to be disabling the
>> UNII-3 range in Europe and I happen to agree more for practical
>> reasons than any sense of 'responsibility'.
>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Le 07/09/2017 à 15:44, Ryan Mounce a écrit :
>>>> You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d
>>>> Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?
>>>>
>>>> I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world
>>>> including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international market)
>>>> the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice with high
>>>> power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.
>>>>
>>>> Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device
>>>> compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> 2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is polluted
>>>> in every country.
>>>> UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they are
>>>> indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used outdoors,
>>>> unlike a home WiFi AP)
>>>> UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
>>>> UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS is
>>>> still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would have to
>>>> scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
>>>> UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the most
>>>> limited range.
>>>>
>>>> So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are
>>>> broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with
>>>> either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in
>>>> violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their problem
>>>> (and unfortunately also their customers').
>>> --
>>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>> _______________________________________________
>> wireless-regdb mailing list
>> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
>> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb

_______________________________________________
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Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.

[adrian_romasanta]

Hello all,

This band is also usable in Spain with the restriction of 25 mW for Short
Range Devices (or "Dispositivos de corto alcance" in Spanish):
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2008/01/31/pdfs/A05881-05889.pdf (page 7)
As previously commented, these are the only channels on 5 GHz that can be
used outdoors on EU countries, so I think it is important to add them into
the database even if they are not suitable for every use case.
Because of my work on automotive, I know in future more and more cars will
be equipped with WiFi hotspots, and these would be for now the only usable
channels on 5 GHz band.

--
Best regards 
Adrián

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U. (Maximilian Engelhardt)
   2. Re:  Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U. (Mathieu Peyr?ga)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:55:11 +0200
From: Maximilian Engelhardt <engelhardt@perisens.de>
To: wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
Cc: Ryan Mounce <ryan@mounce.com.au>, Mathieu Peyr?ga
	<mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.
Message-ID: <2091032.fZVXnZKvVJ@perisens15>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi,

I sent the patch to add the Frequency range from 5725 to 5875 MHz in Germany
so I can give you some background on this.
What I'm writing is only valid for Germany, but since it's all based on
European regulations it's probably very similar in other European countries.

In Germany there are three bands allowed for wireless LAN (WLAN) usage in
the
5 GHz band  [1]:

5150 - 5250 MHz (indoor only)
5250 - 5350 MHz (indoor only)
5470 - 5725 MHz (indoor and outdoor)

However the 5470 - 5725 MHz band is only allowed for fixed outdoor
installations (this is not stated directly in the legal document but I have
been told it's interpreted in this way. It's however explicitly stated that
usage for aircraft communication is not allowed). So for for non-fixed
outdoor setups none of these 5 GHz bands can be used.


Additionally to the official wireless LAN bands there are short range
devices
(SRD) bands. These are similar to the ISM bands and often share the same
frequency and power regulations, but unlike the ISM bands which are only
allowed for industrial, scientific or medical applications the SRD bands can
be used for data communication.
There exists a frequency range from 5725 - 5875 MHz as SRD band (also an ISM
band) with a maximum power of 25 mW [2]. While this is not specifically
regulated for wireless LAN usage, is can be legally transmitted in this band
following the power restriction. There are also no restrictions to indoor or
outdoor usage. So this is the only 5GHz band in Germany that can be legally
used for non-fixed outdoor equipment using wireless LAN.
Power on this band is limited but there may be applications where this is
not a problem, e.g. if you have line of sight communication or don't need to
transfer much data.

Because of this I see no reason why this frequency range should be removed
from the database. It has advantages over the other 5 GHz bands and it can
be legally used. I would find it annoying not being able to use it while I'm
legally allowed to and not having another option available.

Regards,
Maxi

[1] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
2010_07_WLAN_5GHz_pdf.pdf
[2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteilungen/
2014_69_SRD_pdf.pdf

On Freitag, 8. September 2017 00:15:34 CEST Ryan Mounce wrote:
> On 7 September 2017 at 23:33, Mathieu Peyr?ga 
> <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > unfortunately, my wifi skills are not (yet ?) allowing me to track 
> > further than what the "iw reg get" command tells me (confirmed by 
> > some off the shelf Wifi analyzer sofwares).
> > Do you have pointers/tutorial to help me doing that ?
> 
> Try this
> 
> # find interface name
> iw dev
> # perform scan on interface
> iw dev wlan0 scan -u
> 
> This previously dumped the country IE in a nice readable form, however 
> it no longer does on my device running LEDE master so you may not have 
> any luck depending on how new your distro is.
> 
> Typically for this task I would use monitor mode + Wireshark or my 
> favoured (sadly proprietary) WiFi surveying app, however I can only 
> provide advise for macOS.
> 
> > Further reading your answer, my guess is that DJI has complied to 
> > UNII-3 choice. At least on their website Spark spec page, they 
> > clearly give the good max power figures and make the difference between
FCC and EU areas.
> > 
> > This leads to my concern about why not adding the matching rules in 
> > the DB for EU countries that have transposed it into their laws.
> > Is this regulatory DB supposed to strictly reflect the current state 
> > of local regulations or doe it also endorse a higher level of 
> > "responsability"
> > in order to prevent issues with non complient devices as I 
> > understand your fears ?
> 
> The regdb is only used in practice for 802.11 rather than as a 
> universal dictionary for radio regulations. My personal opinion is 
> that it should first reflect local regulations, and then subsequently 
> reflect established industry conventions that are more restrictive. In 
> this instance, the industry convention appears to be disabling the
> UNII-3 range in Europe and I happen to agree more for practical 
> reasons than any sense of 'responsibility'.
> 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Le 07/09/2017 ? 15:44, Ryan Mounce a ?crit :
> >> You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d 
> >> Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?
> >> 
> >> I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world 
> >> including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international 
> >> market) the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice 
> >> with high power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.
> >> 
> >> Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device 
> >> compatibility.
> >> 
> >> 2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is 
> >> polluted in every country.
> >> UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they 
> >> are indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used 
> >> outdoors, unlike a home WiFi AP)
> >> UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
> >> UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS 
> >> is still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would 
> >> have to scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
> >> UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the 
> >> most limited range.
> >> 
> >> So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are 
> >> broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with 
> >> either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in 
> >> violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their 
> >> problem (and unfortunately also their customers').
> > 
> > --
> > tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
> 
> _______________________________________________
> wireless-regdb mailing list
> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:59:47 +0200
From: Mathieu Peyr?ga <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
To: Maximilian Engelhardt <engelhardt@perisens.de>,
	wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
Cc: Ryan Mounce <ryan@mounce.com.au>
Subject: Re: [wireless-regdb] Question about 5.8 GHz in E.U.
Message-ID: <8f6b6758-5423-3338-a4af-898607cb35ca@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Hello,

thank you for your insights !

Not all EU mandatorily share the exact same rules, but the doument I
referenced in my first post says that the values should be the minimal ones.
If a country wish to allow more power in a given band, it can do so (most
often will not).

As a user, I can says that the DJI Spark is a good example of device that
works well on the SRD band, despite the limited power. It's quite annoying
that this band is not allowed by current database.

Best regards,

Mathieu Peyr?ga

Le 13/09/2017 ? 15:55, Maximilian Engelhardt a ?crit?:
> Hi,
>
> I sent the patch to add the Frequency range from 5725 to 5875 MHz in 
> Germany so I can give you some background on this.
> What I'm writing is only valid for Germany, but since it's all based 
> on European regulations it's probably very similar in other European
countries.
>
> In Germany there are three bands allowed for wireless LAN (WLAN) usage 
> in the
> 5 GHz band  [1]:
>
> 5150 - 5250 MHz (indoor only)
> 5250 - 5350 MHz (indoor only)
> 5470 - 5725 MHz (indoor and outdoor)
>
> However the 5470 - 5725 MHz band is only allowed for fixed outdoor 
> installations (this is not stated directly in the legal document but I 
> have been told it's interpreted in this way. It's however explicitly 
> stated that usage for aircraft communication is not allowed). So for 
> for non-fixed outdoor setups none of these 5 GHz bands can be used.
>
>
> Additionally to the official wireless LAN bands there are short range 
> devices
> (SRD) bands. These are similar to the ISM bands and often share the 
> same frequency and power regulations, but unlike the ISM bands which 
> are only allowed for industrial, scientific or medical applications 
> the SRD bands can be used for data communication.
> There exists a frequency range from 5725 - 5875 MHz as SRD band (also 
> an ISM
> band) with a maximum power of 25 mW [2]. While this is not 
> specifically regulated for wireless LAN usage, is can be legally 
> transmitted in this band following the power restriction. There are 
> also no restrictions to indoor or outdoor usage. So this is the only 
> 5GHz band in Germany that can be legally used for non-fixed outdoor
equipment using wireless LAN.
> Power on this band is limited but there may be applications where this 
> is not a problem, e.g. if you have line of sight communication or 
> don't need to transfer much data.
>
> Because of this I see no reason why this frequency range should be 
> removed from the database. It has advantages over the other 5 GHz 
> bands and it can be legally used. I would find it annoying not being 
> able to use it while I'm legally allowed to and not having another option
available.
>
> Regards,
> Maxi
>
> [1] 
> https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
> Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteil
> ungen/
> 2010_07_WLAN_5GHz_pdf.pdf
> [2] 
> https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/
> Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Allgemeinzuteil
> ungen/
> 2014_69_SRD_pdf.pdf
>
> On Freitag, 8. September 2017 00:15:34 CEST Ryan Mounce wrote:
>> On 7 September 2017 at 23:33, Mathieu Peyr?ga 
>> <mathieu.peyrega@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> unfortunately, my wifi skills are not (yet ?) allowing me to track 
>>> further than what the "iw reg get" command tells me (confirmed by 
>>> some off the shelf Wifi analyzer sofwares).
>>> Do you have pointers/tutorial to help me doing that ?
>> Try this
>>
>> # find interface name
>> iw dev
>> # perform scan on interface
>> iw dev wlan0 scan -u
>>
>> This previously dumped the country IE in a nice readable form, 
>> however it no longer does on my device running LEDE master so you may 
>> not have any luck depending on how new your distro is.
>>
>> Typically for this task I would use monitor mode + Wireshark or my 
>> favoured (sadly proprietary) WiFi surveying app, however I can only 
>> provide advise for macOS.
>>
>>> Further reading your answer, my guess is that DJI has complied to 
>>> UNII-3 choice. At least on their website Spark spec page, they 
>>> clearly give the good max power figures and make the difference between
FCC and EU areas.
>>>
>>> This leads to my concern about why not adding the matching rules in 
>>> the DB for EU countries that have transposed it into their laws.
>>> Is this regulatory DB supposed to strictly reflect the current state 
>>> of local regulations or doe it also endorse a higher level of 
>>> "responsability"
>>> in order to prevent issues with non complient devices as I 
>>> understand your fears ?
>> The regdb is only used in practice for 802.11 rather than as a 
>> universal dictionary for radio regulations. My personal opinion is 
>> that it should first reflect local regulations, and then subsequently 
>> reflect established industry conventions that are more restrictive. 
>> In this instance, the industry convention appears to be disabling the
>> UNII-3 range in Europe and I happen to agree more for practical 
>> reasons than any sense of 'responsibility'.
>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Le 07/09/2017 ? 15:44, Ryan Mounce a ?crit :
>>>> You can see the 'FR' Country Code, can you see the full 802.11d 
>>>> Country Information IE that is broadcast by the DJI drone?
>>>>
>>>> I can see how this situation has come about. In much of the world 
>>>> including China (DJI) and the USA (DJI's largest international 
>>>> market) the 'UNII-3' equivalent range is a simple default choice 
>>>> with high power and outdoor use permitted, with no DFS to worry about.
>>>>
>>>> Europe is not so simple. In roughly descending order of device 
>>>> compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> 2.4GHz has power restrictions compared to USA/China, and is 
>>>> polluted in every country.
>>>> UNII-1 is indoor only and should require the user to confirm they 
>>>> are indoors (for a device like a drone that is likely to be used 
>>>> outdoors, unlike a home WiFi AP)
>>>> UNII-2 adds DFS and TPC restrictions to UNII-1, quite restrictive.
>>>> UNII-2E is fairly quiet and allows more generous power, however DFS 
>>>> is still a consideration and a portable device like a drone would 
>>>> have to scan for at least 60 seconds before broadcasting in this band.
>>>> UNII-3 has the strictest power restrictions of all, and thus the 
>>>> most limited range.
>>>>
>>>> So it seems that DJI have simply ignored this altogether, and are 
>>>> broadcasting in a poorly supported frequency band in Europe with 
>>>> either a very weak short range signal or a very strong signal in 
>>>> violation of regulations. Either way, this is very much their 
>>>> problem (and unfortunately also their customers').
>>> --
>>> tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59
>> _______________________________________________
>> wireless-regdb mailing list
>> wireless-regdb@lists.infradead.org
>> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless-regdb


--
tel : +33 (0)6 87 30 83 59




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