From: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
To: "Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
Tetsuo Handa <penguin-kernel@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@socionext.com>,
Gary Lin <GLin@suse.com>, Bruno Meneguele <bmeneg@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:33:43 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200608163343.nvmdhbgkhoscwpau@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87mu5f8ljf.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 12:58:12AM -0500, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
> Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Sat, Jun 06, 2020 at 03:33:14PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 1:20 PM Alexei Starovoitov
> >> <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Please mention specific bugs and let's fix them.
> >>
> >> Well, Eric did mention one explicit bug, and several "looks dodgy" bugs.
> >>
> >> And the fact is, this isn't used.
> >>
> >> It's clever, and I like the concept, but it was probably a mistake to
> >> do this as a user-mode-helper thing.
> >>
> >> If people really convert netfilter rules to bpf, they'll likely do so
> >> in user space. This bpfilter thing hasn't gone anywhere, and it _has_
> >> caused problems.
> >>
> >> So Alexei, I think the burden of proof is not on Eric, but on you.
> >>
> >> Eric's claim is that
> >>
> >> (a) it has bugs (and yes, he pointed to at lelast one)
> >
> > the patch from March 12 ?
> > I thought it landed long ago. Is there an issue with it?
> > 'handling is questionable' is not very constructive.
>
> It was half a fix. Tetsuo still doesn't know how to fix tomoyo to work
> with fork_usermode_blob.
>
> He was asking for your feedback and you did not give it.
>
> The truth is Tetsuo's fix was only a fix for the symptoms. It was not a
> good fix to the code.
>
> >> (b) it's not doing anything useful
> >
> > true.
> >
> >> (b) it's a maintenance issue for execve, which is what Eric maintains.
> >
> > I'm not aware of execve issues. I don't remember being cc-ed on them.
> > To me this 'lets remove everything' patch comes out of nowhere with
> > a link to three month old patch as a justification.
>
> I needed to know how dead the code is and your reply has confirmed
> that the code is dead.
>
> Deleting the code is much easier than the detailed careful work it would
> take to make code that is in use work correctly.
>
> >> So you can't just dismiss this, ignore the reported bug, and say
> >> "we'll fix them".
> >>
> >> That only answers (a) (well, it _would_ have answered (a)., except you
> >> actually didn't even read Eric's report of existing bugs).
> >>
> >> What is your answer to (b)-(c)?
> >
> > So far we had two attempts at converting netfilter rules to bpf. Both ended up
> > with user space implementation and short cuts. bpf side didn't have loops and
> > couldn't support 10k+ rules. That is what stalled the effort. imo it's a
> > pointless corner case, but to be a true replacement people kept bringing it up
> > as something valid. Now we have bpf iterator concept and soon bpf will be able
> > to handle millions of rules. Also folks are also realizing that this effort has
> > to be project managed appropriately. Will it materialize in patches tomorrow?
> > Unlikely. Probably another 6 month at least. Also outside of netfilter
> > conversion we've started /proc extension effort that will use the same umh
> > facility. It won't be ready tomorrow as well, but both need umh.
>
> Given that I am one of the folks who looks after proc I haven't seen
> that either. The direction I have seen in the last 20 years is people
> figuring out how to reduce proc not really how to extend it so I can't
> imagine what a /proc extension effort is.
We already made it extensible without changing /proc.
Folks can mount bpffs into /newproc, pin bpf prog in there and it
will be cat-able.
It's not quite /proc, of course. It's a flexible alternative
with unstable cat-able files that are kernel specific.
>
> > initrd is not
> > an option due to operational constraints. We need a way to ship kernel tarball
> > where bpf things are ready at boot. I suspect /proc extensions patches will
> > land sooner. Couple month ago people used umh to do ovs->xdp translatation. It
> > didn't land. People argued that the same thing can be achieved in user space
> > and they were correct. So you're right that for most folks user space is the
> > answer. But there are cases where kernel has to have these things before
> > systemd starts.
>
> You may have a valid case for doing things in the kernel before systemd
> starts. The current mechanism is fundamentally in conflict with the
> LSMs which is an unresolved problem.
It's the other way around. fork_usermode_blob is a mechanism to launch bpf_lsm.
> I don't see why you can't have a userspace process that does:
>
> pid = fork();
> if (pid == 0) {
> /* Do bpf stuff */
> }
> else if (pid > 0) {
> execve("/sbin/init", ...);
> }
>
> You can build an initramfs with that code right into the kernel, so
> I can't imagine the existing mechanisms being insufficient.
that doesn't work for android.
It also doesn't work for us. We ship the kernel package.
It has vmlinux and kernel modules. That's it.
> That said the fork_usermode_blob code needs to be taken out and
> rewritten so as not to impose a burden on the rest of the code. There
> is no reason why code that is called only one time can not allocate a
> filename and pass it to __do_execve_file.
Sure. Let's alloc filename.
> There is no reason to allow modules access to any of that functionality
> if you need something before an initramfs can be processed.
>
> exit_umh() is completely unnecessary all that is needed is a reference
> to a struct pid.
So there are no bugs, but there are few layering concerns, right?
Let's switch to pid from task_struct.
> There are all of these layers and abstractions but with only the single
> user in net/bpfilter/bpfilter_kern.c they all appear to have been
> jumbled together without good layering inbetween then.
I'm totally fine tweaking the layering if it makes exec code easier
to maintain.
Sounds like alloc filename and pid vs task_struct are the only things
that needs to be tweaked.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-06-08 16:33 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 194+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <20200329005528.xeKtdz2A0%akpm@linux-foundation.org>
[not found] ` <13fb3ab7-9ab1-b25f-52f2-40a6ca5655e1@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
[not found] ` <202006051903.C44988B@keescook>
2020-06-06 19:20 ` [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-06 20:19 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 22:33 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07 1:49 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-07 2:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07 16:09 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:20 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:40 ` Greg KH
2020-06-08 18:35 ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09 1:26 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 15:37 ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09 19:51 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 2:31 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-08 16:23 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 23:22 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09 1:28 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 5:29 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09 22:32 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 23:30 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10 0:05 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10 3:08 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10 3:32 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10 7:30 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10 16:24 ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-09 20:02 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-09 23:56 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10 21:12 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-11 23:31 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-12 0:57 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13 3:38 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13 4:22 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13 14:08 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-13 15:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13 16:14 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-14 14:51 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-16 1:55 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-16 16:21 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:04 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 18:35 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:53 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 19:40 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 1:51 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24 4:00 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 4:58 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24 6:39 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 7:05 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24 15:41 ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24 17:54 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 19:48 ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24 6:05 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 14:18 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 12:13 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-24 14:26 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 23:14 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 1:35 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-25 6:38 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 9:57 ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 11:03 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:07 ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 14:21 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 19:34 ` David Miller
2020-06-26 1:36 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-26 1:51 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 4:58 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 5:41 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 6:20 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 6:39 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 12:51 ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53 ` [PATCH 01/14] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53 ` [PATCH 02/14] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54 ` [PATCH 03/14] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54 ` [PATCH 04/14] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:55 ` [PATCH 05/14] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 14:17 ` kernel test robot
2020-06-26 16:22 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 16:45 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27 1:26 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27 4:21 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27 4:36 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 12:55 ` [PATCH 06/14] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 15:37 ` Kees Cook
2020-06-26 16:31 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56 ` [PATCH 07/14] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56 ` [PATCH 08/14] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57 ` [PATCH 09/14] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57 ` [PATCH 10/14] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58 ` [PATCH 11/14] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58 ` [PATCH 12/14] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59 ` [PATCH 13/14] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59 ` [PATCH 14/14] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 13:48 ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:55 ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:56 ` [PATCH v2 01/15] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57 ` [PATCH v2 02/15] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57 ` [PATCH v2 03/15] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:59 ` [PATCH v2 04/15] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:00 ` [PATCH v2 05/15] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-07-01 17:18 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-01 17:42 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:01 ` [PATCH v2 06/15] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:02 ` [PATCH v2 07/15] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03 ` [PATCH v2 08/15] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03 ` [PATCH v2 09/15] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:04 ` [PATCH v2 10/15] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 5:43 ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 12:14 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:38 ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 14:28 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:55 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:05 ` [PATCH v2 11/15] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06 ` [PATCH v2 12/15] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06 ` [PATCH v2 13/15] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:07 ` [PATCH v2 14/15] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:08 ` [PATCH v2 15/15] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 22:12 ` [PATCH v2 00/15] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 1:13 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 6:16 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:29 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:21 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 13:08 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 13:40 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 16:02 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 13:19 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-03 22:25 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04 6:57 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-08 4:46 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:52 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-01 17:12 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:40 ` [PATCH v3 00/16] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 01/16] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 02/16] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 03/16] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 04/16] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 05/16] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 06/16] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 07/16] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 08/16] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 09/16] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 10/16] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08 6:35 ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 12:41 ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 13:08 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08 13:32 ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-12 21:02 ` Pavel Machek
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 11/16] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 12/16] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 13/16] exit: Factor thread_group_exited out of pidfd_poll Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 20:30 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-03 21:37 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04 0:03 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-04 15:50 ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-07 17:09 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08 0:05 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-07-08 3:50 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04 16:00 ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 14/16] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 15/16] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41 ` [PATCH v3 16/16] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 23:51 ` [PATCH v3 00/16] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-09 22:05 ` [merged][PATCH " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-14 19:42 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-08 5:20 ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Luis Chamberlain
2020-06-26 14:10 ` [PATCH 00/14] " Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-26 16:40 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 17:17 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 18:22 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-27 11:38 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27 12:59 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27 13:57 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-28 19:44 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 2:20 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-29 20:19 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 6:28 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:32 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:48 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 21:54 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 21:57 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 22:58 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:56 ` [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 13:25 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-25 14:26 ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 14:36 ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 15:21 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 16:03 ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 16:06 ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-26 11:30 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 5:58 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 11:56 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:35 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov [this message]
2020-06-06 20:43 ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-06-07 15:51 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 1:13 ` Tetsuo Handa
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