From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
To: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
Daniel Colascione <dancol@google.com>,
Song Liu <songliubraving@fb.com>,
Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
Kernel Team <Kernel-team@fb.com>,
Lorenz Bauer <lmb@cloudflare.com>, Jann Horn <jannh@google.com>,
Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 bpf-next 1/4] bpf: unprivileged BPF access via /dev/bpf
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:59:18 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <317422C3-ACE3-42A7-A287-7B8FEE12E33A@amacapital.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190814233335.37t4zfsiswrpd4d6@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com>
> On Aug 14, 2019, at 4:33 PM, Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 03:30:51PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:51:23AM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If eBPF is genuinely not usable by programs that are not fully trusted
>>>> by the admin, then no kernel changes at all are needed. Programs that
>>>> want to reduce their own privileges can easily fork() a privileged
>>>> subprocess or run a little helper to which they delegate BPF
>>>> operations. This is far more flexible than anything that will ever be
>>>> in the kernel because it allows the helper to verify that the rest of
>>>> the program is doing exactly what it's supposed to and restrict eBPF
>>>> operations to exactly the subset that is needed. So a container
>>>> manager or network manager that drops some provilege could have a
>>>> little bpf-helper that manages its BPF XDP, firewalling, etc
>>>> configuration. The two processes would talk over a socketpair.
>>>
>>> there were three projects that tried to delegate bpf operations.
>>> All of them failed.
>>> bpf operational workflow is much more complex than you're imagining.
>>> fork() also doesn't work for all cases.
>>> I gave this example before: consider multiple systemd-like deamons
>>> that need to do bpf operations that want to pass this 'bpf capability'
>>> to other deamons written by other teams. Some of them will start
>>> non-root, but still need to do bpf. They will be rpm installed
>>> and live upgraded while running.
>>> We considered to make systemd such centralized bpf delegation
>>> authority too. It didn't work. bpf in kernel grows quickly.
>>> libbpf part grows independently. llvm keeps evolving.
>>> All of them are being changed while system overall has to stay
>>> operational. Centralized approach breaks apart.
>>>
>>>> The interesting cases you're talking about really *do* involved
>>>> unprivileged or less privileged eBPF, though. Let's see:
>>>>
>>>> systemd --user: systemd --user *is not privileged at all*. There's no
>>>> issue of reducing privilege, since systemd --user doesn't have any
>>>> privilege to begin with. But systemd supports some eBPF features, and
>>>> presumably it would like to support them in the systemd --user case.
>>>> This is unprivileged eBPF.
>>>
>>> Let's disambiguate the terminology.
>>> This /dev/bpf patch set started as describing the feature as 'unprivileged bpf'.
>>> I think that was a mistake.
>>> Let's call systemd-like deamon usage of bpf 'less privileged bpf'.
>>> This is not unprivileged.
>>> 'unprivileged bpf' is what sysctl kernel.unprivileged_bpf_disabled controls.
>>>
>>> There is a huge difference between the two.
>>> I'm against extending 'unprivileged bpf' even a bit more than what it is
>>> today for many reasons mentioned earlier.
>>> The /dev/bpf is about 'less privileged'.
>>> Less privileged than root. We need to split part of full root capability
>>> into bpf capability. So that most of the root can be dropped.
>>> This is very similar to what cap_net_admin does.
>>> cap_net_amdin can bring down eth0 which is just as bad as crashing the box.
>>> cap_net_admin is very much privileged. Just 'less privileged' than root.
>>> Same thing for cap_bpf.
>>
>> The new pseudo-capability in this patch set is absurdly broad. I’ve proposed some finer-grained divisions in this thread. Do you have comments on them?
>
> Initially I agreed that it's probably too broad, but then realized
> that they're perfect as-is. There is no need to partition further.
>
>>> May be we should do both cap_bpf and /dev/bpf to make it clear that
>>> this is the same thing. Two interfaces to achieve the same result.
>>
>> What for? If there’s a CAP_BPF, then why do you want /dev/bpf? Especially if you define it to do the same thing.
>
> Indeed, ambient capabilities should work for all cases.
>
>> No, I’m not. I have no objection at all if you try to come up with a clear definition of what the capability checks do and what it means to grant a new permission to a task. Changing *all* of the capable checks is needlessly broad.
>
> There are not that many bits left. I prefer to consume single CAP_BPF bit.
> All capable(CAP_SYS_ADMIN) checks in kernel/bpf/ will become CAP_BPF.
> This is no-brainer.
>
> The only question is whether few cases of CAP_NET_ADMIN in kernel/bpf/
> should be extended to CAP_BPF or not.
> imo devmap and xskmap can stay CAP_NET_ADMIN,
> but cgroup bpf attach/detach should be either CAP_NET_ADMIN or CAP_BPF.
> Initially cgroup-bpf hooks were limited to networking.
> It's no longer the case. Requiring NET_ADMIN there make little sense now.
>
Cgroup bpf attach/detach, with the current API, gives very strong control over the whole system, and it will just get stronger as bpf gains features. Making it CAP_BPF means that you will never have the ability to make CAP_BPF safe to give to anything other than an extremely highly trusted process. Unsafe pointers are similar. The rest could plausibly be hardened in the future, although the by_id stuff may be tricky too.
Do new programs really need the by_id calls? It could make sense to leave those unchanged and to have new programs use persistent maps instead.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-08-14 23:59 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 92+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-06-27 20:19 [PATCH v2 bpf-next 0/4] sys_bpf() access control via /dev/bpf Song Liu
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 1/4] bpf: unprivileged BPF access " Song Liu
2019-06-27 23:40 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-27 23:42 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-28 10:28 ` Christian Brauner
2019-06-28 9:05 ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-06-28 19:04 ` Song Liu
2019-06-30 0:12 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-01 9:03 ` Song Liu
2019-07-02 1:59 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-02 18:24 ` Kees Cook
2019-07-02 21:32 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-02 23:48 ` Song Liu
2019-07-22 20:53 ` Song Liu
2019-07-23 10:45 ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-07-23 15:11 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-23 22:56 ` Song Liu
2019-07-24 1:40 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-24 6:30 ` Song Liu
2019-07-27 18:20 ` Song Liu
2019-07-30 5:07 ` Song Liu
2019-07-30 20:24 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-31 8:10 ` Song Liu
2019-07-31 19:09 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-02 7:21 ` Song Liu
2019-08-04 22:16 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 0:08 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 5:47 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 7:36 ` Song Liu
2019-08-05 17:23 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 19:21 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-05 21:25 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 22:21 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-06 1:11 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-07 5:24 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-07 9:03 ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-08-07 13:52 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-13 21:58 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-13 22:26 ` Daniel Colascione
2019-08-13 23:24 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-13 23:06 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14 0:57 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 17:51 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14 22:05 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 22:30 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14 23:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 23:59 ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2019-08-15 0:36 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-15 11:24 ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-15 17:28 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-15 18:36 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15 23:08 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 9:34 ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-16 9:59 ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-16 11:33 ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-16 19:52 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 20:28 ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-17 15:02 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:44 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-19 9:15 ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-19 17:27 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-19 17:38 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15 18:43 ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-15 19:46 ` Kees Cook
2019-08-15 23:46 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 0:54 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-16 5:56 ` Song Liu
2019-08-16 21:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 22:22 ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-17 15:08 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:16 ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-17 15:36 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:42 ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-22 14:17 ` Daniel Borkmann
2019-08-22 15:16 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-22 15:17 ` RFC: very rough draft of a bpf permission model Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-22 23:26 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-23 23:09 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-26 22:36 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-27 0:05 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-27 0:34 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-22 22:48 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 1/4] bpf: unprivileged BPF access via /dev/bpf Alexei Starovoitov
2019-07-30 20:20 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-31 7:44 ` Song Liu
2019-06-28 9:01 ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-06-28 19:10 ` Song Liu
2019-07-01 9:34 ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-07-02 19:22 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2019-07-03 7:28 ` Greg KH
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 2/4] bpf: sync tools/include/uapi/linux/bpf.h Song Liu
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 3/4] libbpf: add libbpf_[enable|disable]_sys_bpf() Song Liu
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 4/4] bpftool: use libbpf_[enable|disable]_sys_bpf() Song Liu
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