From: Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@mojatatu.com>
To: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: Cong Wang <xiyou.wangcong@gmail.com>,
David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
Andrii Nakryiko <andrii@kernel.org>,
John Fastabend <john.fastabend@gmail.com>,
Lorenz Bauer <lmb@cloudflare.com>,
Linux Kernel Network Developers <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>, kernel-team <kernel-team@fb.com>,
Pedro Tammela <pctammela@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH bpf-next] bpf: Introduce bpf_timer
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:25:28 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <3a274610-c407-7a66-4acb-d5dfde0d5951@mojatatu.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210526165847.g4z5anq6ync47z4t@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com>
On 2021-05-26 12:58 p.m., Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:34:04AM -0400, Jamal Hadi Salim wrote:
>> On 2021-05-25 6:08 p.m., Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:09 PM Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@mojatatu.com> wrote:
>>
>> Didnt follow why this wouldnt work in the same way for Array?
>
> array doesn't have delete.
Ok. But even for arrays if userspace for example does update
of an existing entry we should be able to invoke callback, no?
>> One interesting concept i see come out of this is emulating
>> netlink-like event generation towards user space i.e a user
>> space app listening to changes to a map.
>
> Folks do it already via ringbuf events. No need for update/delete
> callback to implement such notifications.
>
Please bear with me:
I know it is trivial to do if you are in control of the kernel
side if your prog creates/updates/deletes map entries. Ive done
it many times with perf event arrays (before ringbuf existed).
But:
What i was referring to is if another entity altogether
(possibly not under your control) was to make that change
from the kernel side then you dont get to know. Same with a
user space program doing a write to the map entry.
If you say this can be done then please do me a kindness and point
me to someone already doing this or some sample code.
>> would like to hear what the proposed ideas are.
>> I see this as a tricky problem to solve - you can make LRU
>> programmable to allow the variety of LRU replacement algos out
>> there but not all encompansing for custom or other types of algos.
>> The problem remains that LRU is very specific to evicting
>> entries that are least used. I can imagine that if i wanted to
>> do a LIFO aging for example then it can be done with some acrobatics
>> as an overlay on top of LRU with all sorts of tweaking.
>> It is sort of fitting a square peg into a round hole - you can do
>> it, but why the torture when you have a flexible architecture.
>
> Using GC to solve 'hash table is running out of memory' problem is
> exactly the square peg.
> Timers is absolutely wrong way to address memory pressure.
>
>> We need to provide the mechanisms (I dont see a disagreement on
>> need for timers at least).
>
> It's an explicit non-goal for timer api to be used as GC for conntrack.
Agreed.
> You'll be able to use it as such, but when it fails to scale
> (as it's going to happen with any timer implementation) don't blame
> infrastructure for that.
Agreed again. Timers are a necessary part of the toolset.
I hope i was reading as claiming that just firing random
timers equates to gc or that on its own will scale.
>> A reasonable approach is to let the policy be defined
>> from user space. I may want the timer to keep polling
>> a map that is not being updated until the next program
>> restarts and starts updating it.
>> I thought Cong's approach with timerids/maps was a good
>> way to achieve control.
>
> No, it's not a policy, and no, it doesn't belong to user space,
> and no, Cong's approach has nothing to do with this design choice.
You listed 3 possibilities of what could happen in the use case
i described. One person's meat is another person's poison.
i.e it is about design choice. What i meant by policy is
whether intentionaly or not, Cong's approach had the user able to
control what happens to the timer.
cheers,
jamal
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-05-26 18:25 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 77+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-05-20 18:55 [RFC PATCH bpf-next] bpf: Introduce bpf_timer Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-21 14:38 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-21 21:37 ` Cong Wang
2021-05-23 16:01 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-24 8:45 ` Lorenz Bauer
2021-05-25 3:16 ` Cong Wang
2021-05-25 4:59 ` Cong Wang
2021-05-25 18:21 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-25 19:35 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-05-25 19:57 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-25 21:09 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-05-25 22:08 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-26 15:34 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-05-26 16:58 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-26 18:25 ` Jamal Hadi Salim [this message]
2021-05-30 6:36 ` Cong Wang
2021-06-02 2:00 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-06-02 8:48 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2021-06-02 17:54 ` Martin KaFai Lau
2021-06-02 18:13 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2021-06-02 18:26 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-06-02 18:30 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2021-06-02 18:46 ` John Fastabend
2021-05-23 11:48 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2021-05-23 15:58 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-24 8:42 ` Lorenz Bauer
2021-05-24 14:48 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-24 17:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-24 18:39 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2021-05-24 18:38 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2021-05-24 11:49 ` Lorenz Bauer
2021-05-24 14:56 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-24 19:13 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2021-05-25 5:22 ` Cong Wang
2021-05-25 19:47 ` Andrii Nakryiko
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-04-01 4:26 [RFC Patch bpf-next] bpf: introduce bpf timer Cong Wang
2021-04-01 6:38 ` Song Liu
2021-04-01 17:28 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-01 20:17 ` Song Liu
2021-04-02 17:34 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-02 17:57 ` Song Liu
2021-04-02 19:08 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-02 19:43 ` Song Liu
2021-04-02 20:57 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-02 23:31 ` Song Liu
2021-04-05 23:49 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-06 1:07 ` Song Liu
2021-04-06 1:24 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-06 6:17 ` Song Liu
2021-04-06 16:48 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-06 23:36 ` Song Liu
2021-04-08 22:45 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-02 19:28 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-04-02 21:24 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-02 23:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-04-06 0:36 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-12 23:01 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-04-15 4:02 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-15 4:25 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-04-15 15:51 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-26 23:00 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-26 23:05 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-04-26 23:37 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-27 2:01 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-04-27 11:52 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-04-27 16:36 ` Cong Wang
2021-04-27 18:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-05-09 5:37 ` Cong Wang
2021-05-10 20:55 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-05-11 21:29 ` Cong Wang
2021-05-12 22:56 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-05-11 5:05 ` Joe Stringer
2021-05-11 21:08 ` Cong Wang
2021-05-12 22:43 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-05-13 18:45 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2021-05-14 2:53 ` Cong Wang
2021-08-11 21:03 ` Joe Stringer
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