From: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
To: Stephen Hemminger <stephen@networkplumber.org>
Cc: "Daniel Borkmann" <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
"Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>,
"David Ahern" <dsahern@gmail.com>,
"Andrii Nakryiko" <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com>,
"Jiri Benc" <jbenc@redhat.com>,
"Edward Cree" <ecree@solarflare.com>,
"Hangbin Liu" <haliu@redhat.com>,
"Alexei Starovoitov" <ast@kernel.org>,
"Martin KaFai Lau" <kafai@fb.com>,
"Song Liu" <songliubraving@fb.com>, "Yonghong Song" <yhs@fb.com>,
"David Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
"Jesper Dangaard Brouer" <brouer@redhat.com>,
Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
"Andrii Nakryiko" <andrii@kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 16:40:06 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAADnVQLy9QiqRUWND43uC3BvfEz2WXtLMV0v0D-9B+hoBak2yw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20201112160437.64c36022@hermes.local>
On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 4:35 PM Stephen Hemminger
<stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 00:20:52 +0100
> Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net> wrote:
>
> > On 11/12/20 11:36 PM, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen wrote:
> > > Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net> writes:
> > >
> > >>> Besides, for the entire history of BPF support in iproute2 so far, the
> > >>> benefit has come from all the features that libbpf has just started
> > >>> automatically supporting on load (BTF, etc), so users would have
> > >>> benefited from automatic library updates had it *not* been vendored in.
> > >>
> > >> Not really. What you imply here is that we're living in a perfect
> > >> world and that all distros follow suite and i) add libbpf dependency
> > >> to their official iproute2 package, ii) upgrade iproute2 package along
> > >> with new kernel releases and iii) upgrade libbpf along with it so that
> > >> users are able to develop BPF programs against the feature set that
> > >> the kernel offers (as intended). These are a lot of moving parts to
> > >> get right, and as I pointed out earlier in the conversation, it took
> > >> major distros 2 years to get their act together to officially include
> > >> bpftool as a package - I'm not making this up, and this sort of pace
> > >> is simply not sustainable. It's also not clear whether distros will
> > >> get point iii) correct.
> > >
> > > I totally get that you've been frustrated with the distro adoption and
> > > packaging of BPF-related tools. And rightfully so. I just don't think
> > > that the answer to this is to try to work around distros, but rather to
> > > work with them to get things right.
> > >
> > > I'm quite happy to take a shot at getting a cross-distro effort going in
> > > this space; really, having well-supported BPF tooling ought to be in
> > > everyone's interest!
> >
> > Thanks, yes, that is worth a push either way! There is still a long tail
> > of distros that are not considered major and until they all catch up with
> > points i)-iii) it might take a much longer time until this becomes really
> > ubiquitous with iproute2 for users of the libbpf loader. Its that this
> > frustrating user experience could be avoided altogether. iproute2 is
> > shipped and run also on small / embedded devices hence it tries to have
> > external dependencies reduced to a bare minimum (well, except that libmnl
> > detour, but it's not a mandatory dependency). If I were a user and would
> > rely on the loader for my progs to be installed I'd probably end up
> > compiling my own version of iproute2 linked with libbpf to move forward
> > instead of being blocked on distro to catch up, but its an additional
> > hassle for shipping SW instead of just having it all pre-installed when
> > built-in given it otherwise comes with the base distro already. But then
> > my question is what is planned here as deprecation process for the built-in
> > lib/bpf.c code? I presume we'll remove it eventually to move on?
>
> Perf has a similar problem and it made it into most distributions because it is
> a valuable tool. Maybe there is some lessons learned that could apply here.
Indeed.
Please read tools/perf/Documentation/Build.txt
and realize that perf binary _statically_ links libperf library.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-11-13 0:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 167+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-10-23 3:38 [PATCH iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 14:34 ` David Ahern
2020-10-25 15:13 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-25 22:12 ` David Ahern
2020-10-26 8:56 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-26 15:15 ` David Ahern
2020-10-27 2:58 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-24 0:21 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-25 15:11 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-26 8:10 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 21:17 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Alexei Starovoitov
2020-10-28 23:02 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:06 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 2:20 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:45 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 3:00 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 3:17 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 10:26 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 10:51 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-29 2:27 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:33 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:46 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:34 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-10-29 2:50 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 11:38 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-10-29 20:30 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:33 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:26 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-02 15:37 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 5:54 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-03 17:32 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 8:51 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-04 11:09 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 11:40 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-02 15:41 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 5:48 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-03 17:19 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 8:22 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-05 2:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 7:51 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-05 15:25 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 15:57 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-05 16:02 ` David Ahern
2020-11-06 0:56 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-06 0:41 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-02 15:47 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support David Ahern
2020-11-03 6:58 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-03 8:42 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-03 17:45 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 17:48 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-03 8:46 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-03 17:35 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 17:47 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-03 18:23 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-03 22:32 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 22:55 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 1:40 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 2:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 9:28 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-05 2:39 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 2:17 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-04 3:11 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 10:01 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-04 10:21 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-04 11:20 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 13:12 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-04 19:17 ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-11-04 20:43 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-04 22:24 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-05 20:14 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-05 3:48 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 20:53 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-05 3:19 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 14:05 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2020-11-05 21:01 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 15:27 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2020-11-06 21:25 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-10 12:47 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-11 0:53 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-11 11:31 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-11 18:08 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-05 20:45 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 9:00 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-06 21:07 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-04 21:15 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-04 22:10 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 22:35 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 23:05 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-05 20:19 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 8:44 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-06 20:57 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 21:04 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-06 23:25 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-06 23:30 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-07 0:41 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-07 1:07 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 23:38 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 1:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-10 4:09 ` David Ahern
2020-11-11 0:47 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-11 11:02 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-11 15:06 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-11 16:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-12 22:36 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-12 23:20 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-13 0:04 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-13 0:40 ` Alexei Starovoitov [this message]
2020-11-13 3:55 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-14 3:26 ` David Ahern
2020-11-16 4:30 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 4:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-11-14 3:24 ` David Ahern
2020-11-16 3:55 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 7:19 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-16 14:54 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-11-16 23:29 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-17 2:37 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-17 3:19 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-17 18:27 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-17 11:56 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-17 3:38 ` David Ahern
2020-11-17 18:19 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-16 16:45 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 1/5] iproute2: add check_libbpf() and get_libbpf_version() Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: make ipvrf able to use libbpf and fix function name conflicts Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:12 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:12 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-25 5:28 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support David Ahern
2020-11-25 5:30 ` patchwork-bot+netdevbpf
2020-11-29 6:16 ` [PATCH " Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-29 6:22 ` Greg KH
2020-11-30 11:39 ` Michal Kubecek
2020-11-29 17:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-29 19:41 ` David Ahern
2020-11-30 11:04 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-12-01 14:22 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
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