* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
@ 2005-11-19 6:31 Marco Costalba
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Marco Costalba @ 2005-11-19 6:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Junio C Hamano, git
H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
>> I just looked at the diff this commit introduces:
>>
>> e6bd23911efd0a2bd756c77d9e7ba6576eb739a1
>> Documentation: asciidoc sources are utf-8
>>
>> with gitk (BTW, I pulled from paulus today, so "master" branch
>> has the latest gitk) while my locale set to LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8.
>>
>> Surprisingly, the diff to Documentation/git-pack-redundant.txt,
>> which changes Lukas' name originally incorrectly encoded in
>> iso-8859-1 to utf-8, was shown and both pre-image and post-image
>> lines are readable.
>>
>> I do not know how tcl/tk does it, but it is doing the right
>> thing.
>>
>
> Tcl/Tk assumes that anything that isn't valid UTF-8 is Latin-1.
>
> -hpa
> -
My locale is set to LC_CTYPE=it_IT (local codec is ISO 8859-15).
Gitk shows correctly pre-image lines, but not post-image. BTW it's
the same output I have with
git-diff-tree -p e6bd23911efd0a2bd756c77d9e7ba6576eb739a1
run from KDE Konsole.
So I think the local encoding (LC_CTYPE) has a role in the story.
Marco
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-27 3:57 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-27 4:13 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-27 16:18 ` Kay Sievers
1 sibling, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Kay Sievers @ 2005-11-27 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Junio C Hamano; +Cc: Linus Torvalds, git
On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 07:57:48PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Kay Sievers <kay.sievers@vrfy.org> writes:
> > On Sat, Nov 19, 2005 at 09:52:34AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >> On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Well, some people on the list seem to think UTF-8 is the one and
> >> > only right encoding, so for them if the message does not
> >> > identify what it is in, assuming UTF-8 and not doing any
> >> > conversion is probably the right thing ;-).
> >>
> >> If you replace "assume" with "verify", then I agree.
> > I found some test code I did a while ago for validation of
> > filesystem labels, cause D-BUS diconnects your session, if you
> > send an invalid utf-8 string to the bus. :)
>
> Thanks. I take it that you are licensing this code to use in
> git when we doing what Linus suggests?
Sure, it's free to use under any version of the GPL git uses itself.
Thanks,
Kay
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-27 3:57 ` Junio C Hamano
@ 2005-11-27 4:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-27 16:18 ` Kay Sievers
1 sibling, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-27 4:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Junio C Hamano; +Cc: Kay Sievers, git
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Kay Sievers <kay.sievers@vrfy.org> writes:
> >>
> >> If you replace "assume" with "verify", then I agree.
>
> One problem I have that approach is what to do if it does not
> verify. Reject and ask them to re-run the program with another
> option --binary-log-message?
We could do that. With perhaps an option to just do the trivial
"latin1->utf8" translation, which will be correct in most of the western
world (and, perhaps more importantly - the places it won't be correct in
will almost universally have an explicit locale setting or similar, since
otherwise nothing would work).
In other words, in the absense of locale settings, we can pretty much
assume any 8-bit data is latin1 if it isn't already utf-8. That's what a
lot of tools do already (eg, gitk automatically does the right thing,
exactly because it will assume non-proper utf-8 being in latin1).
I'd suggest that the current "-u" flag do the latin1->utf8 autoconversion,
and _without_ the "-u" flag, you'd just commit it as binary data..
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
[not found] ` <20051127025249.GA12286@vrfy.org>
@ 2005-11-27 3:57 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-27 4:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-27 16:18 ` Kay Sievers
0 siblings, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Junio C Hamano @ 2005-11-27 3:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kay Sievers; +Cc: Linus Torvalds, git
Kay Sievers <kay.sievers@vrfy.org> writes:
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2005 at 09:52:34AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>> >
>> > Well, some people on the list seem to think UTF-8 is the one and
>> > only right encoding, so for them if the message does not
>> > identify what it is in, assuming UTF-8 and not doing any
>> > conversion is probably the right thing ;-).
>>
>> If you replace "assume" with "verify", then I agree.
One problem I have that approach is what to do if it does not
verify. Reject and ask them to re-run the program with another
option --binary-log-message?
> I found some test code I did a while ago for validation of
> filesystem labels, cause D-BUS diconnects your session, if you
> send an invalid utf-8 string to the bus. :)
>
> Kay
Thanks. I take it that you are licensing this code to use in
git when we doing what Linus suggests?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-21 8:38 ` Johannes Schindelin
@ 2005-11-21 9:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-21 9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Johannes Schindelin; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
>
>>Johannes Schindelin wrote:
>>
>>>BTW, utf-8 was designed on purpose to be easily distinguishable from
>>>other encodings so that you don't have to rely on every document
>>>obeying a certain encoding.
>>>
>>
>>No, it wasn't. It was designated on purpose to be ASCII-compatible,
>>substring-safe, and minimally stateful.
>
>
> For the record, my information stems from
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utf-8#Rationale_behind_UTF-8.27s_mechanics
>
That article is a bit confusing, as it mixes rationale with commentary.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-20 18:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-11-21 8:38 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-21 9:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Schindelin @ 2005-11-21 8:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Hi,
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> >
> > BTW, utf-8 was designed on purpose to be easily distinguishable from
> > other encodings so that you don't have to rely on every document
> > obeying a certain encoding.
> >
>
> No, it wasn't. It was designated on purpose to be ASCII-compatible,
> substring-safe, and minimally stateful.
For the record, my information stems from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utf-8#Rationale_behind_UTF-8.27s_mechanics
Hth,
Dscho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 0:04 ` Johannes Schindelin
@ 2005-11-20 18:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-21 8:38 ` Johannes Schindelin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-20 18:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Johannes Schindelin; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Kay Sievers wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, convince the git maintainers, that it's incredibly stupid not to
>>enforce utf8 in commit messages. It makes absolutely zero sense in a
>>SCM, which merges forth and back between people around the world to
>>allow random encodings from the last century.
>
>
> Oh, but it makes sense! Just because you happen to work on a very
> international project does not mean everybody does.
>
> Just because you happen to like utf-8 does not mean that you still do in
> 2046. The encoding-du-jour might well be a 64-bit wide char code by then,
> since they'll laugh about our dreaming about terabytes.
>
> BTW, utf-8 was designed on purpose to be easily distinguishable from other
> encodings so that you don't have to rely on every document obeying a
> certain encoding.
>
No, it wasn't. It was designated on purpose to be ASCII-compatible,
substring-safe, and minimally stateful.
Furthermore, it's extensible. Although the original UTF-8 is limited to
31 bits, and the officially published UTF-8 is further crippled to 21
bits by Mirco$oft cronies who wanted it to be brainfuck-compatible with
UTF-16, it could easily be extended to 64 bits or beyond.
I think it's *definitely* safe to say that whatever encoding we'll use
in 2046, current UTF-8 will be a subset. If you don't believe me,
consider how long we've had ASCII and the first of the design criteria
for UTF-8 that I listed in the first paragraph.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-20 3:10 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-20 4:13 ` Johannes Schindelin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Schindelin @ 2005-11-20 4:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Junio C Hamano, git
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 505 bytes --]
Hi,
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> (In Finnish/Swedish, the letter 'ä' is code \x00E4, which in UTF-8 is the
> sequence \xA5\xC3. But you can't know if a text that has that sequence is
> UTF-8, or if it's a strange two-character latin1 sequence of "Ã¥"
> (character codes \x00A5 and \x00C3).
>
> But I can pretty much guarantee that most any _sane_ latin1 text will
> obviously not be UTF-8, so in _practice_ you can definitely tell the two
> apart.
Thank you,
Dscho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-20 1:16 ` Johannes Schindelin
@ 2005-11-20 3:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-20 4:13 ` Johannes Schindelin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-20 3:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Johannes Schindelin; +Cc: Junio C Hamano, git
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 855 bytes --]
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> > And text with 8-bit latin1 is almost never valid utf-8.
>
> I had the impression utf-8 was designed in a way so you could strike
> "almost". But I don't have my docs handy...
No, strange latin combinations will be valid utf-8.
It needs to be some really strange text to be real latin1 but look like it
might be utf-8, though.
(In Finnish/Swedish, the letter 'ä' is code \x00E4, which in UTF-8 is the
sequence \xA5\xC3. But you can't know if a text that has that sequence is
UTF-8, or if it's a strange two-character latin1 sequence of "Ã¥"
(character codes \x00A5 and \x00C3).
But I can pretty much guarantee that most any _sane_ latin1 text will
obviously not be UTF-8, so in _practice_ you can definitely tell the two
apart.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 17:52 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-20 1:16 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-20 3:10 ` Linus Torvalds
[not found] ` <20051127025249.GA12286@vrfy.org>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Schindelin @ 2005-11-20 1:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Junio C Hamano, git
Hi,
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> And text with 8-bit latin1 is almost never valid utf-8.
I had the impression utf-8 was designed in a way so you could strike
"almost". But I don't have my docs handy...
Ciao,
Dscho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 10:31 ` Junio C Hamano
@ 2005-11-19 17:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-20 1:16 ` Johannes Schindelin
[not found] ` <20051127025249.GA12286@vrfy.org>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-19 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Junio C Hamano; +Cc: git
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
> Well, some people on the list seem to think UTF-8 is the one and
> only right encoding, so for them if the message does not
> identify what it is in, assuming UTF-8 and not doing any
> conversion is probably the right thing ;-).
If you replace "assume" with "verify", then I agree.
It's pretty easy to verify whether something is valid utf-8 or not (not
trivial - you have to also check the sequences for minimality, which adds
a few extra tests, but it's certainly not complicated).
And text with 8-bit latin1 is almost never valid utf-8.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 8:49 ` Andreas Ericsson
@ 2005-11-19 10:58 ` Johannes Schindelin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Schindelin @ 2005-11-19 10:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Ericsson; +Cc: git
Hi,
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Andreas Ericsson wrote:
> Isn't it already? You can install and use any hooks you like after all.
Exactly. All you have to do is provide a recipe for Documentation/howto/.
Anybody wanting to enforce policy just takes that recipe, adjusts it for
her needs, and installs the hook.
Hth,
Dscho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 1:05 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-19 10:31 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-19 17:52 ` Linus Torvalds
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Junio C Hamano @ 2005-11-19 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: git
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> writes:
> Although right now "-u" doesn't actually _force_ a conversion: if you have
> an email with 8-bit characters and no character set mentioned, it will
> silently just do nothing, and the end result won't be valid UTF-8 after
> all.
... unless it was already utf8, that is. I have received a
couple of patches with charset=utf-8; I think cte of them were
qp, which was a bit unpleasant.
> If we want utf-8, we should probably force it, and default to the latin1
> translation (with some way to specify alternatives).
Well, some people on the list seem to think UTF-8 is the one and
only right encoding, so for them if the message does not
identify what it is in, assuming UTF-8 and not doing any
conversion is probably the right thing ;-).
This suggests a few flags (config items) to mailinfo:
(1) if we pass thru the input intact or not (1 bit);
(2) what charset to assume if the mail does not identify
itself (default to latin1; specify "barf" to mean abort
processing if a message with 8-bit character does not
identify itself);
(3) what we do when the mail does not transliterate
correctly (1 bit -- fail, or remove offending bytes and
pretend things are peachy -- defaulting on the stricter
side);
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 1:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-11-19 8:49 ` Andreas Ericsson
2005-11-19 10:58 ` Johannes Schindelin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Ericsson @ 2005-11-19 8:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> Andreas Ericsson wrote:
>
>>>
>>> You're assuming there *IS* an original (and initially main) project.
>>>
>>> There is another usage mode: "we're dumping CVS and switching to this
>>> new-fangled git thing." I have myself done this with several
>>> projects by now.
>>
>>
>> I'm guessing Linus' scenario is more common. I do it myself and I'd
>> like it to keep working.
>>
>
> I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the *option* might be useful.
>
Isn't it already? You can install and use any hooks you like after all.
--
Andreas Ericsson andreas.ericsson@op5.se
OP5 AB www.op5.se
Tel: +46 8-230225 Fax: +46 8-230231
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 21:29 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-19 8:48 ` Junio C Hamano
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Junio C Hamano @ 2005-11-19 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ismail Donmez; +Cc: git
Ismail Donmez <ismail@uludag.org.tr> writes:
> Your produced XML is NOT valid then. You put encoding=utf-8 and then put
> latin-1 encoded data in it. You SHOULD NOT do that. Either put latin-1 as
> encoding in the RSS because you say its the way data should be else encode
> non-utf stuff to be utf-8.
Maybe, but that is not me ;-).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 3:28 ` Junio C Hamano
@ 2005-11-19 4:35 ` H. Peter Anvin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-19 4:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Junio C Hamano; +Cc: git
Junio C Hamano wrote:
> I just looked at the diff this commit introduces:
>
> e6bd23911efd0a2bd756c77d9e7ba6576eb739a1
> Documentation: asciidoc sources are utf-8
>
> with gitk (BTW, I pulled from paulus today, so "master" branch
> has the latest gitk) while my locale set to LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8.
>
> Surprisingly, the diff to Documentation/git-pack-redundant.txt,
> which changes Lukas' name originally incorrectly encoded in
> iso-8859-1 to utf-8, was shown and both pre-image and post-image
> lines are readable.
>
> I do not know how tcl/tk does it, but it is doing the right
> thing.
>
Tcl/Tk assumes that anything that isn't valid UTF-8 is Latin-1.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:02 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-18 20:08 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-19 0:04 ` Johannes Schindelin
@ 2005-11-19 3:28 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-19 4:35 ` H. Peter Anvin
2 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Junio C Hamano @ 2005-11-19 3:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
I just looked at the diff this commit introduces:
e6bd23911efd0a2bd756c77d9e7ba6576eb739a1
Documentation: asciidoc sources are utf-8
with gitk (BTW, I pulled from paulus today, so "master" branch
has the latest gitk) while my locale set to LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8.
Surprisingly, the diff to Documentation/git-pack-redundant.txt,
which changes Lukas' name originally incorrectly encoded in
iso-8859-1 to utf-8, was shown and both pre-image and post-image
lines are readable.
I do not know how tcl/tk does it, but it is doing the right
thing.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:53 ` Andreas Ericsson
@ 2005-11-19 1:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-19 8:49 ` Andreas Ericsson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-19 1:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Ericsson; +Cc: git
Andreas Ericsson wrote:
>>
>> You're assuming there *IS* an original (and initially main) project.
>>
>> There is another usage mode: "we're dumping CVS and switching to this
>> new-fangled git thing." I have myself done this with several projects
>> by now.
>
> I'm guessing Linus' scenario is more common. I do it myself and I'd like
> it to keep working.
>
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the *option* might be useful.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-19 0:37 ` Junio C Hamano
@ 2005-11-19 1:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-19 10:31 ` Junio C Hamano
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-19 1:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Junio C Hamano; +Cc: git
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
> Pulls are "too late, sorry you have to live with it"; for
> patches, mailinfo and am have -u (I do not remember if I added
> it to applymbox -- I do not use applymbox anymore myself).
It's in applymbox too, although the default is not to use it (and
applymbox only supports the short "-u" form, not the "--utf8" one).
> Maybe we should make -u the default and countermand with -U to
> encourage the use of utf8 further?
Probably.
Although right now "-u" doesn't actually _force_ a conversion: if you have
an email with 8-bit characters and no character set mentioned, it will
silently just do nothing, and the end result won't be valid UTF-8 after
all.
I think. You're the one who wrote all the conversion stuff ;)
If we want utf-8, we should probably force it, and default to the latin1
translation (with some way to specify alternatives).
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-19 0:34 ` Johannes Schindelin
@ 2005-11-19 0:37 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-19 1:05 ` Linus Torvalds
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Junio C Hamano @ 2005-11-19 0:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: git
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> writes:
> Of course, you could equally easily (more so?) make it just a commit
> trigger instead, which might well be the right thing.
I think it is the right approach. As I repeatedly said (not
that repeating things makes them right) on this list, I think
that the interpretation of what is in commit log is a policy
issue that is local to each project.
> (And that still leaves the question open what to do about patches and
> pulls, but if people mainly worry about newly written commit messages
> itself, then at least that part is unambiguous).
Pulls are "too late, sorry you have to live with it"; for
patches, mailinfo and am have -u (I do not remember if I added
it to applymbox -- I do not use applymbox anymore myself).
Maybe we should make -u the default and countermand with -U to
encourage the use of utf8 further?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:25 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-19 0:34 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-19 0:37 ` Junio C Hamano
1 sibling, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Schindelin @ 2005-11-19 0:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: H. Peter Anvin, Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Hi,
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> This I agree with, btw. We could easily have a
>
> [core]
> utf=1
>
> thing, and make git-commit-tree refuse to commit a non-UTF8 message.
>
> Of course, you could equally easily (more so?) make it just a commit
> trigger instead, which might well be the right thing.
Actually, hooks have been introduced for exactly that purpose! Besides,
they are a much more powerful tool. For example, you can not only enforce
utf-8, but also replace words from a swear words list by "*beep*".
So, hooks are the way to go. Introducing another way to accomplish the
same thing would be like Microsoft, implementing hundreds of APIs for the
same task, none of them correct.
I can only underline what Linus said here: Software should work for
people, not the other way round. Please, before you send some BS like
"utf-8 is the only reasonable thing for everybody, everywhere, ever", read
that sentence in Linus' mail again. Software should *not* restrict anybody
for non-technical reasons. ever. Period.
Ciao,
Dscho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:58 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-11-19 0:29 ` Johannes Schindelin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Schindelin @ 2005-11-19 0:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Linus Torvalds, Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Hi,
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> And in *either* case you may want to convert commit messages.
You may, and you may not. Remember, this is *free* software. If there is
no technical point to it, you should not restrict people. Else you get
forked...
Hth,
Dscho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:02 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-18 20:08 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-19 0:04 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-20 18:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-19 3:28 ` Junio C Hamano
2 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Johannes Schindelin @ 2005-11-19 0:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kay Sievers; +Cc: Ismail Donmez, git
Hi,
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Kay Sievers wrote:
> Yes, convince the git maintainers, that it's incredibly stupid not to
> enforce utf8 in commit messages. It makes absolutely zero sense in a
> SCM, which merges forth and back between people around the world to
> allow random encodings from the last century.
Oh, but it makes sense! Just because you happen to work on a very
international project does not mean everybody does.
Just because you happen to like utf-8 does not mean that you still do in
2046. The encoding-du-jour might well be a 64-bit wide char code by then,
since they'll laugh about our dreaming about terabytes.
BTW, utf-8 was designed on purpose to be easily distinguishable from other
encodings so that you don't have to rely on every document obeying a
certain encoding.
Hth,
Dscho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 23:58 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-19 0:29 ` Johannes Schindelin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-18 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
>>There is another usage mode: "we're dumping CVS and switching to this
>>new-fangled git thing." I have myself done this with several projects by now.
>
>
> I agree that in that case, the problem space is _much_ simpler, and you're
> able to do much more.
>
> And I suspect it works well for projects with a few developers that can
> just afford to do that. And it obviously works for a big project with
> hundreds of developers that is forced to do it.
>
> But I suspect it's not the common way of doing things. There's already a
> few projects that do the "maintain in parallel" thing, like the Wine tree
> discussed a few days ago.
>
Oh, agreed. However, if you want to convert your master repository you
may want to do conversion.
And in *either* case you may want to convert commit messages.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:53 ` Andreas Ericsson
@ 2005-11-18 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 23:58 ` H. Peter Anvin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
> There is another usage mode: "we're dumping CVS and switching to this
> new-fangled git thing." I have myself done this with several projects by now.
I agree that in that case, the problem space is _much_ simpler, and you're
able to do much more.
And I suspect it works well for projects with a few developers that can
just afford to do that. And it obviously works for a big project with
hundreds of developers that is forced to do it.
But I suspect it's not the common way of doing things. There's already a
few projects that do the "maintain in parallel" thing, like the Wine tree
discussed a few days ago.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-11-18 23:53 ` Andreas Ericsson
2005-11-19 1:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Ericsson @ 2005-11-18 23:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>>
>>> On the fly conversion on CVS import isn't particularly crazy, as long
>>> as it's
>>> under user control.
>>
>>
>> Actually, it is.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> How are you going to feed your changes back to the original (and
>> initially main) project?
>>
>> Hint: they're not going to pull from your git tree, are they?
>>
>> Ahh. Maybe patches would be a good idea.
>>
>> Ooops.
>>
>
> You're assuming there *IS* an original (and initially main) project.
>
> There is another usage mode: "we're dumping CVS and switching to this
> new-fangled git thing." I have myself done this with several projects
> by now.
>
I'm guessing Linus' scenario is more common. I do it myself and I'd like
it to keep working.
--
Andreas Ericsson andreas.ericsson@op5.se
OP5 AB www.op5.se
Tel: +46 8-230225 Fax: +46 8-230231
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 23:20 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 23:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:53 ` Andreas Ericsson
2005-11-18 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
0 siblings, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-18 23:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
>>On the fly conversion on CVS import isn't particularly crazy, as long as it's
>>under user control.
>
> Actually, it is.
>
> Why?
>
> How are you going to feed your changes back to the original (and initially
> main) project?
>
> Hint: they're not going to pull from your git tree, are they?
>
> Ahh. Maybe patches would be a good idea.
>
> Ooops.
>
You're assuming there *IS* an original (and initially main) project.
There is another usage mode: "we're dumping CVS and switching to this
new-fangled git thing." I have myself done this with several projects
by now.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 22:12 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:20 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 23:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-19 0:34 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-19 0:37 ` Junio C Hamano
1 sibling, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
> Similarly, it may not be a bad idea to add an *option* -- now when we have a
> config file mechanism -- to signal error on invalid UTF-8 import. This would
> keep a correct UTF-8 repository from getting inadvertently messed up.
This I agree with, btw. We could easily have a
[core]
utf=1
thing, and make git-commit-tree refuse to commit a non-UTF8 message.
Of course, you could equally easily (more so?) make it just a commit
trigger instead, which might well be the right thing.
(And that still leaves the question open what to do about patches and
pulls, but if people mainly worry about newly written commit messages
itself, then at least that part is unambiguous).
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 22:12 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-11-18 23:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 23:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:25 ` Linus Torvalds
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
> On the fly conversion on CVS import isn't particularly crazy, as long as it's
> under user control.
Actually, it is.
Why?
How are you going to feed your changes back to the original (and initially
main) project?
Hint: they're not going to pull from your git tree, are they?
Ahh. Maybe patches would be a good idea.
Ooops.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 21:48 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 22:12 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 23:25 ` Linus Torvalds
0 siblings, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-18 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Kay Sievers, Ismail Donmez, git
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> Want to do on-the-fly conversion on CVS import (or worse yet - something
> like clearcase)? With magic rules or fragile heuristics for binary files?
> That's crazy, and that's not how these things work. No, the way these
> things work is that they continue to be maintained in EUC-JP or whatever,
> and a tool that requires conversion is a tool that just doesn't get used.
>
On the fly conversion on CVS import isn't particularly crazy, as long as
it's under user control. Although I was primarly thinking about it in
the context of commit messages, it could be done on file contents as
well, since CVS has the ability to flag files as text or as binary
(-kb). We already have a bunch of options relating to how to map CVS
onto git, and conversion time is a good time to do it.
Similarly, it may not be a bad idea to add an *option* -- now when we
have a config file mechanism -- to signal error on invalid UTF-8 import.
This would keep a correct UTF-8 repository from getting inadvertently
messed up.
What *does* need to happen, I'm convinced, is that any tool that handles
email needs to be able to take the email and convert its character set
encodings (by default to UTF-8). Most MUAs today use all kinds of weird
heuristics for which character set to use, and it's frequently not what
the user expected.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 21:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 21:33 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-18 21:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 22:12 ` H. Peter Anvin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kay Sievers; +Cc: Ismail Donmez, git
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 1820 bytes --]
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> And last I heard (if I remember correctly), Junio explicitly said that a
> lot of the people he works with still use shift-jis.
I should have dug it up. Apparently it's AUC-JP, not SJIS.
Anyway. I literally have _no_ idea what the difference between those
encodings are. I'm totally clueless when it comes to how the encodings
actually work etc. I wouldn't know a Japanese character if it painted
itself purple and did a risqué dance number.
But I do know just how slowly these conversions happen, and what a huge
deal it is for people who have documents and tools and databases that are
encoded in some particular encoding.
You do have to realize that while you may think that it's stupid that
people use a non-utf8 encoding, those very people don't actually see a
huge advantage from switching away from what has worked for them for
decades, and they _do_ see huge transition pains and costs.
So let's say that you have a project where the coding style includes S-JIS
or EUC-JP (of which there are multiple variations, I believe, just to make
things even more fun). You could argue that if such a project moves into
git, it should be converted to UTF-8 at that point. That's all fine and
dandy, but usually you don't do flag-days. You have people who start
tracking it in git, and maybe even developing it in git, but they still
have to work with the outside people.
Want to do on-the-fly conversion on CVS import (or worse yet - something
like clearcase)? With magic rules or fragile heuristics for binary files?
That's crazy, and that's not how these things work. No, the way these
things work is that they continue to be maintained in EUC-JP or whatever,
and a tool that requires conversion is a tool that just doesn't get used.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 21:30 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 21:33 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:48 ` Linus Torvalds
1 sibling, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 23:30, you wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Kay Sievers wrote:
> > Actually, the real bug is not to try to prevent binary nonsense in
> > textual commit logs, which are distibuted. Remember, that you provide a
> > SCM not a filesystem.
>
> I never said they were text, and in fact, I never even said I'm doing an
> SCM. Quite the reverse. I very much said that I'm doing a filesystem that
> is flexible.
>
> The fact that the headers are text-like is not so much about text as it is
> about flexibility and easy tool access. If you look at the git object
> format, for example, the header is strictly NUL-terminated ASCII, but the
> object itself is a pure binary data stream. Which obviously just _happens_
> to often be text too, since quite often the object contents is something
> like a C source file, but there's a real power to _not_ thinking that it
> means that files are text-files.
>
> And I like UTF-8, but the fact is, all my editors and mail tools are still
> Latin-1. My editor converts the UTF-8 input into latin1 and keeps it in
> that format on disk (it writes it to the _screen_ as UTF-1 just to make
> the glyphs come out right, but the file it works with is still latin1).
>
> Could I change? Yup, I could change pretty easily. I wrote the code that
> did the latin1 conversion, and I've got source for my tools, so I could
> just decide one day that I'll join the 21st century and switch. I just
> haven't done so yet.
>
> The fact that _I_ can't be bothered, even though I'm in just about the
> best possible situation (I've got a keyboard with åäö on it, but they're
> not in my name, so I don't use them that much) should tell you something.
> Namely, it should tell you that there's a _lot_ of people who have a much
> harder time than I do in changing their setups.
>
> I think most of Asia _still_ doesn't use utf-8. And I _guarantee_ you that
> it's a hell of a lot easier for you to complain about it and say "they
> should" than it is for them to actually do so and convert all the programs
> they use.
>
> On this mailing list, the only person that I've seen pipe up about these
> things in the past _and_ that I suspect actually has to work with this
> thing in real life (instead of just from a theoretical "this is how things
> should be done" standpoint) is Junio. And last I heard (if I remember
> correctly), Junio explicitly said that a lot of the people he works with
> still use shift-jis.
>
> And I'm not surprised. Look on the web. As far as I know, shift-jis is
> still much more common than utf-8.
>
> AND IT DOESN'T MATTER ONE WHIT WHEN SOME GEEK SAYS "THEY SHOULDN'T DO
> THAT, THEN"!
>
> Software should conform to people, not the other way around.
Linus,
I got your point. But the XML should reflect the data it contains. This _is_
my problem. Will the data be latin-1, OK then the xml should say its latin-1
and not lie as utf-8.
Regards,
ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:55 ` Kay Sievers
@ 2005-11-18 21:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 21:33 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:48 ` Linus Torvalds
0 siblings, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kay Sievers; +Cc: Ismail Donmez, git
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 2625 bytes --]
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Kay Sievers wrote:
>
> Actually, the real bug is not to try to prevent binary nonsense in textual
> commit logs, which are distibuted. Remember, that you provide a SCM not a
> filesystem.
I never said they were text, and in fact, I never even said I'm doing an
SCM. Quite the reverse. I very much said that I'm doing a filesystem that
is flexible.
The fact that the headers are text-like is not so much about text as it is
about flexibility and easy tool access. If you look at the git object
format, for example, the header is strictly NUL-terminated ASCII, but the
object itself is a pure binary data stream. Which obviously just _happens_
to often be text too, since quite often the object contents is something
like a C source file, but there's a real power to _not_ thinking that it
means that files are text-files.
And I like UTF-8, but the fact is, all my editors and mail tools are still
Latin-1. My editor converts the UTF-8 input into latin1 and keeps it in
that format on disk (it writes it to the _screen_ as UTF-1 just to make
the glyphs come out right, but the file it works with is still latin1).
Could I change? Yup, I could change pretty easily. I wrote the code that
did the latin1 conversion, and I've got source for my tools, so I could
just decide one day that I'll join the 21st century and switch. I just
haven't done so yet.
The fact that _I_ can't be bothered, even though I'm in just about the
best possible situation (I've got a keyboard with åäö on it, but they're
not in my name, so I don't use them that much) should tell you something.
Namely, it should tell you that there's a _lot_ of people who have a much
harder time than I do in changing their setups.
I think most of Asia _still_ doesn't use utf-8. And I _guarantee_ you that
it's a hell of a lot easier for you to complain about it and say "they
should" than it is for them to actually do so and convert all the programs
they use.
On this mailing list, the only person that I've seen pipe up about these
things in the past _and_ that I suspect actually has to work with this
thing in real life (instead of just from a theoretical "this is how things
should be done" standpoint) is Junio. And last I heard (if I remember
correctly), Junio explicitly said that a lot of the people he works with
still use shift-jis.
And I'm not surprised. Look on the web. As far as I know, shift-jis is
still much more common than utf-8.
AND IT DOESN'T MATTER ONE WHIT WHEN SOME GEEK SAYS "THEY SHOULDN'T DO
THAT, THEN"!
Software should conform to people, not the other way around.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 21:25 ` Junio C Hamano
@ 2005-11-18 21:29 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-19 8:48 ` Junio C Hamano
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 23:25, you wrote:
> Ismail Donmez <ismail@uludag.org.tr> writes:
> >> I agree that UTF-8 is a good idea, but that's a totally different
> >> argument.
> >
> > Maybe you could officially require all commit messages to be UTF-8 then
> > the problem would be just solved for future commits at least. Until then
> > it should be workarounded in gitweb I guess.
>
> No, that's something I will *not* do.
>
> Linus is right --- he is always right but he is slightly more
> right than he usually is in this particular case ;-).
>
> We allow any 8-bit data in commit log messages. We even make it
> easier to use utf-8 than other encodings, and we encourage use
> of utf-8 for obvious reasons. But we do not go further than
> that. Any patch to change commit-tree.c to reject binary data
> in a commit log message that utf-8 validator chokes at *will* be
> rejected.
>
> Go back to the list archive. Dig out messages on this topic.
> Summarize the ones that say why we encourage utf-8 in textual
> commit log messages, submit a patch to add that to
> Documentation/howto/ or perhaps Documentation/tutorial.txt, to
> further encourage people to use utf-8. Just do not forbid non
> utf-8 text nor binary data in general.
Your produced XML is NOT valid then. You put encoding=utf-8 and then put
latin-1 encoded data in it. You SHOULD NOT do that. Either put latin-1 as
encoding in the RSS because you say its the way data should be else encode
non-utf stuff to be utf-8.
Regards,
ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:45 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:13 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 21:25 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-18 21:29 ` Ismail Donmez
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Junio C Hamano @ 2005-11-18 21:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ismail Donmez; +Cc: git
Ismail Donmez <ismail@uludag.org.tr> writes:
>> I agree that UTF-8 is a good idea, but that's a totally different
>> argument.
>
> Maybe you could officially require all commit messages to be UTF-8 then the
> problem would be just solved for future commits at least. Until then it
> should be workarounded in gitweb I guess.
No, that's something I will *not* do.
Linus is right --- he is always right but he is slightly more
right than he usually is in this particular case ;-).
We allow any 8-bit data in commit log messages. We even make it
easier to use utf-8 than other encodings, and we encourage use
of utf-8 for obvious reasons. But we do not go further than
that. Any patch to change commit-tree.c to reject binary data
in a commit log message that utf-8 validator chokes at *will* be
rejected.
Go back to the list archive. Dig out messages on this topic.
Summarize the ones that say why we encourage utf-8 in textual
commit log messages, submit a patch to add that to
Documentation/howto/ or perhaps Documentation/tutorial.txt, to
further encourage people to use utf-8. Just do not forbid non
utf-8 text nor binary data in general.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 21:13 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 21:22 ` Ismail Donmez
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 23:13, you wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Ismail Donmez wrote:
> > Maybe you could officially require all commit messages to be UTF-8 then
> > the problem would be just solved for future commits at least.
>
> Just think about what that would mean for a second.
>
> What do people put in commit messages? They put things like filenames, to
> indicate that they changed file so-and-so because of issue so-and-so, or
> they needed to include header file so-and-so to fix a problem.
>
> So by virtue of forcing all commit messages to be in UTF-8, you've
> suddenly forced all filesystems to do UTF-8 too.
>
> Take that one step further: you've also forced all the file _contents_
> you talk about to be in UTF-8, since the commit message might quote part
> of the file ("'xyzzy' was misspelled, it should be 'abcde'").
>
> Or alternatively, you've forced the commit message to no longer match the
> reality that it tries to explain.
>
> See the problem?
>
> And that's ignoring the fact that you've unilaterally forced probably 50%
> of asian users to use an environment that they don't normally use.
>
> Remember: it's actually pretty _easy_ for most of the western world to
> move to UTF-8, because 99% of what we do doesn't really care one whit, and
> the remaining 1% isn't usually even a huge problem (ie it's such a small
> percentage that even if you show the wrong character for it, people
> understand what it said).
These days you can just open kwrite, select encoding and voila you don't have
to change anything on the filesystem you can still use whatever $LANG you
use. We would just force them to use a working editor imho. Nothing else. And
thats not much to ask is it? Even joe(1) can edit utf-8 these days that must
tell something.
Regards,
ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:45 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-18 21:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 21:22 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:25 ` Junio C Hamano
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ismail Donmez; +Cc: git
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Ismail Donmez wrote:
>
> Maybe you could officially require all commit messages to be UTF-8 then the
> problem would be just solved for future commits at least.
Just think about what that would mean for a second.
What do people put in commit messages? They put things like filenames, to
indicate that they changed file so-and-so because of issue so-and-so, or
they needed to include header file so-and-so to fix a problem.
So by virtue of forcing all commit messages to be in UTF-8, you've
suddenly forced all filesystems to do UTF-8 too.
Take that one step further: you've also forced all the file _contents_
you talk about to be in UTF-8, since the commit message might quote part
of the file ("'xyzzy' was misspelled, it should be 'abcde'").
Or alternatively, you've forced the commit message to no longer match the
reality that it tries to explain.
See the problem?
And that's ignoring the fact that you've unilaterally forced probably 50%
of asian users to use an environment that they don't normally use.
Remember: it's actually pretty _easy_ for most of the western world to
move to UTF-8, because 99% of what we do doesn't really care one whit, and
the remaining 1% isn't usually even a huge problem (ie it's such a small
percentage that even if you show the wrong character for it, people
understand what it said).
There's only one thing that is easier still: to force your way of working
on others.
This is why I'm so steadfast on it being just a stream of bytes. Because
let's face it, no english-speaking project will ever _really_ care: we'll
get a few peoples names wrong, but it's all going to be pretty irrelevant,
and there's not going to be any real confusion.
In contrast, _forcing_ people to use UTF-8 results in real problems, and
really limits what can be done.
A data stream of 8-bit bytes is really powerful. And oh, btw, it just
happens to be the UNIX way.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:51 ` Josef Weidendorfer
@ 2005-11-18 21:01 ` Kay Sievers
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Kay Sievers @ 2005-11-18 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Josef Weidendorfer; +Cc: git
On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 09:51:56PM +0100, Josef Weidendorfer wrote:
> On Friday 18 November 2005 21:28, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> > I think the point is: what do you do with the data? If it *looks* like
> > valid UTF-8, you pretty much have to assume it is; if it's not (it
> > contains invalid UTF-8 sequences), what do you do? There are only a
> > small handful of alternatives, and none are really good:
> >
> > - Reject it (it's kind of too late, should have been done at
> > checkin)
> > - Show them as SUBSTITUTE characters (U+FFFD).
> > - Show them as Latin-1 or Windows-1252
> > - Provide a complex configuration mechanism
> >
> > I think Kay is going with the second option.
>
> In the case of the Linux kernel, UTF-8 of course is the
> way to go. As you can not reject already commited objects, the second
> option seems the best way.
>
> But I think it would be better to have a config option specifying the
> prefered encoding for commit comments in a project. Something like
>
> core.commit-encoding = Latin-1
>
> gitweb should use this.
Sorry, the 90's are over. Patch it, if you need it, I will not make it happen.
Kay
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:47 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 20:55 ` H. Peter Anvin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-18 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Ismail Donmez, git
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> Which is a fine option. Latin-1 is probably the right choice for the
> kernel, but not necessarily for other projects.
>
> Another option is to just pass them through unmodified, and encourage the
> XML parser to handle it. Anything that takes UTF-8 and doesn't have some
> fallback to handle malformed input is basically buggy. It simply _will_
> happen occasionally, quite independently of git. You can either give up,
> or try to handle it. And giving up is always the wrong choice.
>
Not necessarily. If you can't guarantee that you won't do something
that's bad for security, giving up is the only valid choice.
The problem, of course, comes into place when people write generic XML
parsers -- or, for that matter, UTF-8 decoders -- and don't know what
will happen to the data downstream. Trying to make invalid data valid
has the same problems as DWIM (after all, it *is* DWIM): if done on the
wrong side of a security barrier it has unpredictable consequences.
Thus, making gitweb -- a producer application -- do the guessing is
probably the right thing.
Sorry, Mr. Protocol; in this malware-infested world the old adage "be
liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send" unfortunately
has had to be modified.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 20:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 20:45 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-18 20:55 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-18 21:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Kay Sievers @ 2005-11-18 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Ismail Donmez, git
On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 12:22:34PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Ismail Donmez wrote:
> >
> > > And git guys, please start to think again about your insane options,
> > > that cause more harm than anything good.
> >
> > Can git maintainer(s) comment on this please?
>
> It's easy to say "just do the right thing", and ignore reality.
Well the reality tells that everything that is successful does not give
too many options that harm adoption. For me it's a very simple and "real"
rule.
It's all about a sane default, which git obviously doesn't have. You
guys may look at it from the very low level, but that isn't what I call
"reality".
> git commit logs have always been "8-bit data". It's actually gitweb that
> is buggy if it claims it is UTF-8 without checking or converting it to
> such.
Actually, the real bug is not to try to prevent binary nonsense in textual
commit logs, which are distibuted. Remember, that you provide a SCM not a
filesystem.
> I agree that UTF-8 is a good idea, but that's a totally different
> argument.
Well, I don't see real arguments against sane a default.
Thanks,
Kay
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 20:47 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 20:51 ` Josef Weidendorfer
2005-11-18 21:01 ` Kay Sievers
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Josef Weidendorfer @ 2005-11-18 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 21:28, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> I think the point is: what do you do with the data? If it *looks* like
> valid UTF-8, you pretty much have to assume it is; if it's not (it
> contains invalid UTF-8 sequences), what do you do? There are only a
> small handful of alternatives, and none are really good:
>
> - Reject it (it's kind of too late, should have been done at
> checkin)
> - Show them as SUBSTITUTE characters (U+FFFD).
> - Show them as Latin-1 or Windows-1252
> - Provide a complex configuration mechanism
>
> I think Kay is going with the second option.
In the case of the Linux kernel, UTF-8 of course is the
way to go. As you can not reject already commited objects, the second
option seems the best way.
But I think it would be better to have a config option specifying the
prefered encoding for commit comments in a project. Something like
core.commit-encoding = Latin-1
gitweb should use this.
Josef
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-11-18 20:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 20:55 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 20:51 ` Josef Weidendorfer
1 sibling, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: H. Peter Anvin; +Cc: Ismail Donmez, git
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>
> I think the point is: what do you do with the data? If it *looks* like valid
> UTF-8, you pretty much have to assume it is; if it's not (it contains invalid
> UTF-8 sequences), what do you do?
Btw, this is not a new issue.
This is true even of data that _claims_ to be UTF-8 but contains sequences
that are illegal. A program that just barfs on it is a buggy program.
And yes, I know there are buggy programs out there. I seem to recall some
perl(?) problems when it got UTF-8 strings that weren't, and did
impossible things.
> There are only a small handful of alternatives, and none are really good:
>
> - Reject it (it's kind of too late, should have been done at
> checkin)
It can't be done at checkin, since it's not _wrong_. It's 8-bit data.
It's like saying that /bin/echo is an illegal program and shouldn't be
executed, because it's not encoded in utf-8.
I can well imagine somebody wanting to put a binary signature at the end
of a commit. git shouldn't care, and the important thing to realize is
that there _is_ no "encoding" for such things. So the commits don't
necessarily have to have a font encoding at all, and any visualization
tool should just accept that fact.
> - Show them as SUBSTITUTE characters (U+FFFD).
> - Show them as Latin-1 or Windows-1252
> - Provide a complex configuration mechanism
>
> I think Kay is going with the second option.
Which is a fine option. Latin-1 is probably the right choice for the
kernel, but not necessarily for other projects.
Another option is to just pass them through unmodified, and encourage the
XML parser to handle it. Anything that takes UTF-8 and doesn't have some
fallback to handle malformed input is basically buggy. It simply _will_
happen occasionally, quite independently of git. You can either give up,
or try to handle it. And giving up is always the wrong choice.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 20:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
@ 2005-11-18 20:45 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 21:25 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-18 20:55 ` Kay Sievers
2 siblings, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 20:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 22:22, you wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Ismail Donmez wrote:
> > > And git guys, please start to think again about your insane options,
> > > that cause more harm than anything good.
> >
> > Can git maintainer(s) comment on this please?
>
> It's easy to say "just do the right thing", and ignore reality.
>
> git commit logs have always been "8-bit data". It's actually gitweb that
> is buggy if it claims it is UTF-8 without checking or converting it to
> such.
>
> I agree that UTF-8 is a good idea, but that's a totally different
> argument.
Maybe you could officially require all commit messages to be UTF-8 then the
problem would be just solved for future commits at least. Until then it
should be workarounded in gitweb I guess.
Regards
ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
@ 2005-11-18 20:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 20:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 20:51 ` Josef Weidendorfer
2005-11-18 20:45 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 20:55 ` Kay Sievers
2 siblings, 2 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2005-11-18 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Ismail Donmez, git
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> It's easy to say "just do the right thing", and ignore reality.
>
> git commit logs have always been "8-bit data". It's actually gitweb that
> is buggy if it claims it is UTF-8 without checking or converting it to
> such.
>
> I agree that UTF-8 is a good idea, but that's a totally different
> argument.
>
I think the point is: what do you do with the data? If it *looks* like
valid UTF-8, you pretty much have to assume it is; if it's not (it
contains invalid UTF-8 sequences), what do you do? There are only a
small handful of alternatives, and none are really good:
- Reject it (it's kind of too late, should have been done at
checkin)
- Show them as SUBSTITUTE characters (U+FFFD).
- Show them as Latin-1 or Windows-1252
- Provide a complex configuration mechanism
I think Kay is going with the second option.
Note this problem always exists for the data contents anyway. We can't
do anything about that.
What's probably more important is that tools that rely on email or other
outside data sources (like CVS) do the necessary conversions, so one
doesn't end up with an inadvertently incorrect repository.
-hpa
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:08 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-18 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 20:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2005-11-18 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ismail Donmez; +Cc: git
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Ismail Donmez wrote:
>
> > And git guys, please start to think again about your insane options,
> > that cause more harm than anything good.
>
> Can git maintainer(s) comment on this please?
It's easy to say "just do the right thing", and ignore reality.
git commit logs have always been "8-bit data". It's actually gitweb that
is buggy if it claims it is UTF-8 without checking or converting it to
such.
I agree that UTF-8 is a good idea, but that's a totally different
argument.
Linus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 20:02 ` Kay Sievers
@ 2005-11-18 20:08 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-19 0:04 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-19 3:28 ` Junio C Hamano
2 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 22:02, you wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 09:27:06PM +0200, Ismail Donmez wrote:
> > On Friday 18 November 2005 19:26, you wrote:
> > > On Friday 18 November 2005 18:33, you wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I am trying to parse git's rss feed and now xml parsers seems to
> > > > choke on it because of an error in the produced feed. Looking at
> > > > http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;
> > > >a=rs s
> > > >
> > > > line 781 says :
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, David G\363mez wrote:<br/>
> > > >
> > > > which is part of the commit :
> > > > http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;
> > > >a=co mm it;h=05b8b0fafd4cac75d205ecd5ad40992e2cc5934d
> > >
> > > Ok looks like this text is latin-1 encoded although xml is served as
> > > utf-8.
> >
> > Any comments on this?
>
> Yes, convince the git maintainers, that it's incredibly stupid not to
> enforce utf8 in commit messages. It makes absolutely zero sense in a
> SCM, which merges forth and back between people around the world to
> allow random encodings from the last century.
>
I totally agree, utf8 should be default else the produced XML is wrong. Its
advertised as utf-8 but the content is latin1.
> With the next round of gitweb, I will substitute these caracters with
> valid utf8, which will show up as invalid chars.
When should we expect this? Currently I can't parse commit feed without
encoding to utf8 first.
> And git guys, please start to think again about your insane options,
> that cause more harm than anything good.
Can git maintainer(s) comment on this please?
Regards,
ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 19:27 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-18 20:02 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-18 20:08 ` Ismail Donmez
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Kay Sievers @ 2005-11-18 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ismail Donmez; +Cc: git
On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 09:27:06PM +0200, Ismail Donmez wrote:
> On Friday 18 November 2005 19:26, you wrote:
> > On Friday 18 November 2005 18:33, you wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I am trying to parse git's rss feed and now xml parsers seems to choke on
> > > it because of an error in the produced feed. Looking at
> > > http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=rs
> > >s
> > >
> > > line 781 says :
> > >
> > > On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, David G\363mez wrote:<br/>
> > >
> > > which is part of the commit :
> > > http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=co
> > >mm it;h=05b8b0fafd4cac75d205ecd5ad40992e2cc5934d
> >
> > Ok looks like this text is latin-1 encoded although xml is served as utf-8.
>
> Any comments on this?
Yes, convince the git maintainers, that it's incredibly stupid not to
enforce utf8 in commit messages. It makes absolutely zero sense in a
SCM, which merges forth and back between people around the world to
allow random encodings from the last century.
I still can't believe that this is a subject for discussion, in a
software developed in the year 2005.
With the next round of gitweb, I will substitute these caracters with
valid utf8, which will show up as invalid chars.
And git guys, please start to think again about your insane options,
that cause more harm than anything good.
Thanks,
Kay
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 17:26 ` Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-18 19:27 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 20:02 ` Kay Sievers
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 19:26, you wrote:
> On Friday 18 November 2005 18:33, you wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am trying to parse git's rss feed and now xml parsers seems to choke on
> > it because of an error in the produced feed. Looking at
> > http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=rs
> >s
> >
> > line 781 says :
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, David G\363mez wrote:<br/>
> >
> > which is part of the commit :
> > http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=co
> >mm it;h=05b8b0fafd4cac75d205ecd5ad40992e2cc5934d
>
> Ok looks like this text is latin-1 encoded although xml is served as utf-8.
Any comments on this?
Regards,
ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
2005-11-18 16:33 Ismail Donmez
@ 2005-11-18 17:26 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 19:27 ` Ismail Donmez
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
On Friday 18 November 2005 18:33, you wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am trying to parse git's rss feed and now xml parsers seems to choke on
> it because of an error in the produced feed. Looking at
> http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=rss
>
> line 781 says :
>
> On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, David G\363mez wrote:<br/>
>
> which is part of the commit :
> http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=comm
>it;h=05b8b0fafd4cac75d205ecd5ad40992e2cc5934d
Ok looks like this text is latin-1 encoded although xml is served as utf-8.
/ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Rss produced by git is not valid xml?
@ 2005-11-18 16:33 Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 17:26 ` Ismail Donmez
0 siblings, 1 reply; 50+ messages in thread
From: Ismail Donmez @ 2005-11-18 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: git
Hi all,
I am trying to parse git's rss feed and now xml parsers seems to choke on it
because of an error in the produced feed. Looking at
http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=rss
line 781 says :
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, David G\363mez wrote:<br/>
which is part of the commit :
http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=05b8b0fafd4cac75d205ecd5ad40992e2cc5934d
This looks like malformed xml to me ( because of \363 part ). Is there any way
to fix this so git rss can be parsed? Or is this legal in xml and parsers are
buggy?
Regards,
ismail
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2005-11-27 16:18 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 50+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2005-11-19 6:31 Rss produced by git is not valid xml? Marco Costalba
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-11-18 16:33 Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 17:26 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 19:27 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 20:02 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-18 20:08 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 20:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 20:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 20:55 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 20:51 ` Josef Weidendorfer
2005-11-18 21:01 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-18 20:45 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 21:22 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:25 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-18 21:29 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-19 8:48 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-18 20:55 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-18 21:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 21:33 ` Ismail Donmez
2005-11-18 21:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 22:12 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 23:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-18 23:53 ` Andreas Ericsson
2005-11-19 1:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-19 8:49 ` Andreas Ericsson
2005-11-19 10:58 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-18 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-18 23:58 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-19 0:29 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-18 23:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-19 0:34 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-19 0:37 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-19 1:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-19 10:31 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-19 17:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-20 1:16 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-20 3:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-20 4:13 ` Johannes Schindelin
[not found] ` <20051127025249.GA12286@vrfy.org>
2005-11-27 3:57 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-27 4:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-11-27 16:18 ` Kay Sievers
2005-11-19 0:04 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-20 18:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-21 8:38 ` Johannes Schindelin
2005-11-21 9:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2005-11-19 3:28 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-11-19 4:35 ` H. Peter Anvin
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