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From: Josh Steadmon <steadmon@google.com>
To: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.net>,
	Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Derrick Stolee <stolee@gmail.com>,
	Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>,
	Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget <gitgitgadget@gmail.com>,
	git@vger.kernel.org, peff@peff.net, jrnieder@google.com,
	Derrick Stolee <dstolee@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/15] [RFC] Maintenance jobs and job runner
Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:39:07 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200527223907.GB65111@google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200408000149.GN6369@camp.crustytoothpaste.net>

I'm late to the discussion, but I'd like to chime in here too.


On 2020.04.08 00:01, brian m. carlson wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> On 2020-04-07 at 22:23:43, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > > If there are periodic tasks that should be done, even if only on large
> > > repos, then let's have a git gc --periodic that does them.  I'm not sure
> > > that fetch should be in that set, but nothing prevents users from doing
> > > "git fetch origin && git gc --periodic".
> > 
> > Hmm. Who says that maintenance tasks are essentially only `gc`? With
> > _maaaaaybe_ a `fetch` thrown in?
> 
> What I'm saying is that we have a tool to run maintenance tasks on the
> repository.  If we need to perform additional maintenance tasks, let's
> put them in the same place as the ones we have now.  I realize "gc" may
> become a less accurate name, but oh, well.
> 
> > > Let's make it as simple and straightforward as possible.
> > 
> > I get the impression, however, that many reviewers here seem to favor the
> > goal of making the _patches_ as simple and straightforward as possible,
> > however, at the expense of the original goal. Like, totally sacrificing
> > the ease of use in return for "just use a shell script" advice.
> 
> I think we can have both.  They are not mutually exclusive, and I've
> proposed a suggestion for both.
> 
> > > As for handling multiple repositories, the tool to do that could be as
> > > simple as a shell script which reads from ~/.config/git/repo-maintenance
> > > (or whatever) and runs the same command on all of the repos it finds
> > > there, possibly with a subcommand to add and remove repos.
> > 
> > Sure, that is flexible.
> > 
> > And it requires a ton of Git expertise to know what to put into those
> > scripts. And Git updates cannot deliver more value to those scripts.
> 
> Perhaps I was unclear what I thought could be the design of this.  My
> proposal is something like the following:
> 
>   git schedule-gc add [--period=TIME] [--fetch=REMOTE | --fetch-all] REPO
>   git schedule-gc remove REPO
> 
> The actual command invoked by the system scheduler would be something
> like the following:
> 
>   git schedule-gc run
> 
> It would work as I proposed under the hood, but it would be relatively
> straightforward to use.

Regardless of what happens with the job-runner, I would like to see a
top-level command that performs a single iteration of all the
recommended maintenance steps, with zero configuration required, on a
single repo. This gives an entry point for users who want to manage
their own maintenance schedule without running a background process.


> > > I'm not opposed to seeing a tool that can schedule periodic maintenance
> > > jobs, perhaps in contrib, depending on whether other people think it
> > > should go.  However, I think running periodic jobs is best handled on
> > > Unix with cron or anacron and not a custom tool or a command in Git.
> > 
> > Okay, here is a challenge for you: design this such that the Windows
> > experience does _not_ feel like a 3rd-class citizen. Go ahead. Yes, there
> > is a scheduler. Yep, it does not do cron-like things. Precisely: you have
> > to feed it an XML to make use of the "advanced" features. Yeah, I also
> > cannot remember what the semantics are regarding missed jobs due to
> > shutdown cycles. Nope, you cannot rely on the XML being an option, that
> > would require Windows 10. The list goes on.
> 
> I will freely admit that I know next to nothing about Windows.  I have
> used it only incidentally, if at all, for at least two decades.  It is
> not a platform I generally have an interest in developing for, although
> I try to make it work as well as possible when I am working on a project
> which supports it.
> 
> It is, in general, my assumption, based on its wide usage, that it is a
> powerful and robust operating system with many features, but I have
> little actual knowledge about how it functions or the exact features it
> provides.
> 
> I want a solution that builds on the existing Unix tools for Unix,
> because that is least surprising to users and it is how Unix tools are
> supposed to work.  I think we can agree that Git was designed with the
> Unix philosophy in mind.
> 
> I also want a solution that works on Windows.  Ideally that solution
> would build on existing components that are part of Windows, because it
> reduces the maintenance burden on all of us.  But unfortunately, I know
> next to nothing about how to build such a solution.
> 
> > > I've dealt with systems that implemented periodic tasks without using
> > > the existing tools for doing that, and I've found that usually that's a
> > > mistake.  Despite seeming straightforward, there are a lot of tricky
> > > edge cases to deal with and it's easy to get wrong.
> > 
> > But maybe you found one of those issues in Stolee's patches? If so, please
> > do contribute your experience there to point out those issues, so that
> > they can be addressed.
> 
> One of the benefits of using anacron on Unix is that it can skip running
> tasks when the user is on battery.  This is not anything we can portably
> do across systems, nor is it something that Git should need to know
> about.
> 
> > > We also don't have to reimplement all the features in the system
> > > scheduler and can let expert users use a different tool of their choice
> > > instead if cron (or the Windows equivalent) is not to their liking.
> > 
> > Do we really want to start relying on `cron`, when the major platform used
> > by the target audience (enterprise software engineers who deal with rather
> > larger repositories than git.git or linux.git) quite obviously _lacks_
> > support for that?
> 
> Unix users will be unhappy with us if we use our own scheduling system
> when cron is available.  They will expect us to reimplement those
> features and they will complain if we do not.  While I cannot name
> names, there are a nontrivial number of large, enterprise monorepos that
> run only on macOS and Linux.

Speaking purely as a user, I agree with this point. This is why I want a
single-iteration top-level maintenance command.

Once we have that, we can provide recommended configs for existing
scheduling solutions (cron, launchd, systemd, etc.) in contrib/. If the
Windows scheduler is cumbersome enough that users don't want to use it,
then I think it's perfectly reasonable to provide our own limited
job-runner in contrib/ as well, so long as we don't require people to
use it.

> That doesn't prevent us from building tooling that does the scheduling
> on Windows if we can't use the system scheduler, but it would be nice to
> try to present a relatively unified interface across the two platforms.
> -- 
> brian m. carlson: Houston, Texas, US
> OpenPGP: https://keybase.io/bk2204



  reply	other threads:[~2020-05-27 22:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 55+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-03 20:47 Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 01/15] run-job: create barebones builtin Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-05 15:10   ` Phillip Wood
2020-04-05 19:21     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-04-06 14:42       ` Derrick Stolee
2020-04-07  0:58         ` Danh Doan
2020-04-07 10:54           ` Derrick Stolee
2020-04-07 14:16             ` Danh Doan
2020-04-07 14:30               ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 02/15] run-job: implement commit-graph job Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-05-20 19:08   ` Josh Steadmon
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 03/15] run-job: implement fetch job Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-05 15:14   ` Phillip Wood
2020-04-06 12:48     ` Derrick Stolee
2020-04-05 20:28   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-04-06 12:46     ` Derrick Stolee
2020-05-20 19:08   ` Josh Steadmon
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 04/15] run-job: implement loose-objects job Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-05 20:33   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 05/15] run-job: implement pack-files job Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-05-27 22:17   ` Josh Steadmon
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 06/15] run-job: auto-size or use custom pack-files batch Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 07/15] config: add job.pack-files.batchSize option Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 08/15] job-runner: create builtin for job loop Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 09/15] job-runner: load repos from config by default Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-05 15:18   ` Phillip Wood
2020-04-06 12:49     ` Derrick Stolee
2020-04-05 15:41   ` Phillip Wood
2020-04-06 12:57     ` Derrick Stolee
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 10/15] job-runner: use config to limit job frequency Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-05 15:24   ` Phillip Wood
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 11/15] job-runner: use config for loop interval Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 12/15] job-runner: add --interval=<span> option Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 13/15] job-runner: skip a job if job.<job-name>.enabled is false Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 14/15] job-runner: add --daemonize option Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 20:48 ` [PATCH 15/15] runjob: customize the loose-objects batch size Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
2020-04-03 21:40 ` [PATCH 00/15] [RFC] Maintenance jobs and job runner Junio C Hamano
2020-04-04  0:16   ` Derrick Stolee
2020-04-07  0:50     ` Danh Doan
2020-04-07 10:59       ` Derrick Stolee
2020-04-07 14:26         ` Danh Doan
2020-04-07 14:43           ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-04-07  1:48     ` brian m. carlson
2020-04-07 20:08       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-04-07 22:23       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-04-08  0:01         ` brian m. carlson
2020-05-27 22:39           ` Josh Steadmon [this message]
2020-05-28  0:47             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-05-27 21:52               ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-05-28 14:48                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-05-28 14:50                 ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-05-28 14:57                   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-05-28 15:03                     ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-05-28 15:30                       ` Derrick Stolee
2020-05-28  4:39                         ` Johannes Schindelin

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