Re: default cpufreq gov, was: [PATCH] sched/fair: check for idle core

From: "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@kernel.org>
To: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
Cc: Mel Gorman <mgorman@suse.de>,
	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net>,
	Giovanni Gherdovich <ggherdovich@suse.com>,
	Viresh Kumar <viresh.kumar@linaro.org>,
	Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@inria.fr>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
	kernel-janitors@vger.kernel.org,
	Juri Lelli <juri.lelli@redhat.com>,
	Vincent Guittot <vincent.guittot@linaro.org>,
	Dietmar Eggemann <dietmar.eggemann@arm.com>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
	Ben Segall <bsegall@google.com>,
	Daniel Bristot de Oliveira <bristot@redhat.com>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Valentin Schneider <valentin.schneider@arm.com>,
	Gilles Muller <Gilles.Muller@inria.fr>,
	Srinivas Pandruvada <srinivas.pandruvada@linux.intel.com>,
	Linux PM <linux-pm@vger.kernel.org>,
	Len Brown <len.brown@intel.com>
Subject: Re: default cpufreq gov, was: [PATCH] sched/fair: check for idle core
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 15:55:27 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAJZ5v0hcUq1F4mXDtg9=Co90o-DwtZAN7_bMZfesgM6aoZ+aCg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20201022152514.GJ2611@hirez.programming.kicks-ass.net>

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:25 PM Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 03:52:50PM +0100, Mel Gorman wrote:
>
> > There are some questions
> > currently on whether schedutil is good enough when HWP is not available.
>
> Srinivas and Rafael will know better, but Intel does run a lot of tests
> and IIRC it was found that schedutil was on-par for !HWP. That was the
> basis for commit:
>
>   33aa46f252c7 ("cpufreq: intel_pstate: Use passive mode by default without HWP")
>
> But now it turns out that commit results in running intel_pstate-passive
> on ondemand, which is quite horrible.

It doesn't in general.  AFAICS this happens only if "ondemand" was
selected as the default governor in the old kernel config, which
should not be the common case.

But I do agree that this needs to be avoided.

> > There was some evidence (I don't have the data, Giovanni was looking into
> > it) that HWP was a requirement to make schedutil work well.
>
> That seems to be the question; Rafael just said the opposite.

I'm not aware of any data like that.

HWP should not be required and it should always be possible to make an
HWP system run without HWP (except for those with exotic BIOS
configs).  However, schedutil should work without HWP as well as (or
better than) the "ondemand" and "conservative" governors on top of the
same driver (whatever it is) and it should work as well as (or better
than) "raw" HWP (so to speak) on top of intel_pstate in the passive
mode with HWP enabled (before 5.9 it couldn't work in that
configuration at all and now it can do that, which I guess may be
regarded as an improvement).

> > For distros, switching to schedutil by default would be nice because
> > frequency selection state would follow the task instead of being per-cpu
> > and we could stop worrying about different HWP implementations but it's
>
> s/HWP/cpufreq-governors/ ? But yes.

Well, different HWP implementations in different processor generations
may be a concern as well in general.

> > not at the point where the switch is advisable. I would expect hard data
> > before switching the default and still would strongly advise having a
> > period of time where we can fall back when someone inevitably finds a
> > new corner case or exception.
>
> Which is why I advocated to make it 'difficult' to use the old ones and
> only later remove them.

Slightly less convenient may be sufficient IMV.

> > For reference, SLUB had the same problem for years. It was switched
> > on by default in the kernel config but it was a long time before
> > SLUB was generally equivalent to SLAB in terms of performance.
>
> I remember :-)