From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>
To: Segher Boessenkool <segher@kernel.crashing.org>
Cc: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
will@kernel.org, stern@rowland.harvard.edu,
parri.andrea@gmail.com, boqun.feng@gmail.com, npiggin@gmail.com,
dhowells@redhat.com, j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk, luc.maranget@inria.fr,
akiyks@gmail.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
linux-toolchains@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] LKMM: Add volatile_if()
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 11:55:26 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20210604185526.GW4397@paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210604164047.GH18427@gate.crashing.org>
On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 11:40:47AM -0500, Segher Boessenkool wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 06:10:55PM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 10:35:18AM -0500, Segher Boessenkool wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 01:44:37PM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > > > On naming (sorry Paul for forgetting that in the initial mail); while I
> > > > think using the volatile qualifier for the language feature (can we haz
> > > > plz, kthxbai) makes perfect sense, Paul felt that we might use a
> > > > 'better' name for the kernel use, ctrl_dep_if() was proposed.
> > >
> > > In standard C statements do not have qualifiers. Unless you can
> > > convince the ISO C committee to have them on "if", you will have a very
> > > hard time convincing any serious compiler to do this.
> >
> > While some people like talking to the Committee, I would much rather
> > explore language extensions with the compiler communities. Such
> > extensions can then make their way into the Committee once they show
> > their usefulness.
>
> My point is that you ask compiler developers to paint themselves into a
> corner if you ask them to change such fundamental C syntax.
Once we have some experience with a language extension, the official
syntax for a standardized version of that extension can be bikeshedded.
Committees being what they are, what we use in the meantime will
definitely not be what is chosen, so there is not a whole lot of point
in worrying about the exact syntax in the meantime. ;-)
> > If you have another proposal on how to express this; one you'd rather
> > see implemented, I'm all ears.
>
> I would love to see something that meshes well with the rest of C. But
> there is no 1-1 translation from C code to machine code (not in either
> direction), so anything that more or less depends on that will always
> be awkward. If you can actually express the dependency in your source
> code that will get us 95% to where we want to be.
>
> > Data dependencies, control dependencies and address dependencies, C
> > doesn't really like them, we rely on them. It would be awesome if we can
> > fix this.
>
> Yes. The problem is that C is a high-level language. All C semantics
> are expressed on a an "as-if" level, never as "do this, then that" --
> well, of course that *is* what it says, it's an imperative language just
> like most, but that is just how you *think* about things on a conceptual
> level, there is nothing that says the machine code has to do the same
> thing in the same order as you wrote!
Which is exactly why these conversations are often difficult. There is
a tension between pushing the as-if rule as far as possible within the
compiler on the one hand and allowing developers to write code that does
what is needed on the other. ;-)
Thanx, Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-06-04 18:55 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 127+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-06-04 10:12 [RFC] LKMM: Add volatile_if() Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 10:44 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 11:13 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 11:31 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 13:44 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 13:56 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 15:13 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 15:22 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 15:36 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 15:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 15:51 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 16:17 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 18:27 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 19:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 19:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 20:56 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 21:27 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 21:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 22:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-05 14:57 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 0:14 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 1:29 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 3:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 4:43 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 13:17 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 19:07 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 12:59 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 13:47 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 17:13 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 18:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 19:19 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 18:41 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:59 ` Jakub Jelinek
2021-06-06 19:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 19:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 20:11 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 21:19 ` Alexander Monakov
2021-06-06 22:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 23:39 ` Rasmus Villemoes
2021-06-06 23:44 ` Rasmus Villemoes
2021-06-07 8:01 ` Alexander Monakov
2021-06-07 8:27 ` Marco Elver
2021-06-07 15:28 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 17:04 ` Marco Elver
2021-06-08 9:30 ` Marco Elver
2021-06-08 11:22 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-08 15:28 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 12:44 ` Marco Elver
2021-06-09 15:31 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 16:13 ` Marco Elver
2021-06-09 17:14 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 17:31 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-06-09 20:24 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 18:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-07 17:52 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 18:07 ` Alexander Monakov
2021-06-07 18:18 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 17:42 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 20:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-07 22:54 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 11:53 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 13:45 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 18:22 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:43 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-07 10:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-07 11:52 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-07 15:25 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 16:02 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-07 18:08 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <20210730172020.GA32396@knuckles.cs.ucl.ac.uk>
2021-07-30 20:35 ` Alan Stern
2021-08-02 21:18 ` Alan Stern
2021-08-02 23:31 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-08-04 20:09 ` Alan Stern
2021-08-05 19:47 ` Alan Stern
2021-08-07 0:51 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:40 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 18:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 18:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 19:52 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 20:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 20:26 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 23:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 14:12 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 15:27 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 18:23 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 19:51 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-07 20:16 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 22:40 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 23:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 10:52 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-07 14:16 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 22:05 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-05 3:14 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-05 16:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 15:50 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 15:47 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 11:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 14:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 15:35 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 16:10 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 16:40 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 18:55 ` Paul E. McKenney [this message]
2021-06-04 19:53 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 20:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 11:36 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 19:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 14:25 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 16:09 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 16:33 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 16:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 16:37 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 16:52 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 17:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 17:24 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 17:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 18:25 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 19:17 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 20:43 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 18:23 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-08 12:48 ` David Laight
2021-09-24 18:38 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2021-09-24 19:52 ` Alan Stern
2021-09-24 20:22 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2021-09-24 19:55 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-09-24 20:39 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2021-09-24 22:07 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
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