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From: Segher Boessenkool <segher@kernel.crashing.org>
To: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>
Cc: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	will@kernel.org, stern@rowland.harvard.edu,
	parri.andrea@gmail.com, boqun.feng@gmail.com, npiggin@gmail.com,
	dhowells@redhat.com, j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk, luc.maranget@inria.fr,
	akiyks@gmail.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-toolchains@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] LKMM: Add volatile_if()
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 06:36:51 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20210606113651.GR18427@gate.crashing.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210604204042.GZ4397@paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1>

On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 01:40:42PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 02:53:01PM -0500, Segher Boessenkool wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 11:55:26AM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 04, 2021 at 11:40:47AM -0500, Segher Boessenkool wrote:
> > > > My point is that you ask compiler developers to paint themselves into a
> > > > corner if you ask them to change such fundamental C syntax.
> > > 
> > > Once we have some experience with a language extension, the official
> > > syntax for a standardized version of that extension can be bikeshedded.
> > > Committees being what they are, what we use in the meantime will
> > > definitely not be what is chosen, so there is not a whole lot of point
> > > in worrying about the exact syntax in the meantime.  ;-)
> > 
> > I am only saying that it is unlikely any compiler that is used in
> > production will want to experiment with "volatile if".
> 
> That unfortunately matches my experience over quite a few years.  But if
> something can be implemented using existing extensions, the conversations
> often get easier.  Especially given many more people are now familiar
> with concurrency.

This was about the syntax "volatile if", not about the concept, let's
call that "volatile_if".  And no, it was not me who brought this up :-)

> > > Which is exactly why these conversations are often difficult.  There is
> > > a tension between pushing the as-if rule as far as possible within the
> > > compiler on the one hand and allowing developers to write code that does
> > > what is needed on the other.  ;-)
> > 
> > There is a tension between what users expect from the compiler and what
> > actually is promised.  The compiler is not pushing the as-if rule any
> > further than it always has: it just becomes better at optimising over
> > time.  The as-if rule is and always has been absolute.
> 
> Heh!  The fact that the compiler has become better at optimizing
> over time is exactly what has been pushing the as-if rule further.
> 
> The underlying problem is that it is often impossible to write large
> applications (such as the Linux kernel) completely within the confines of
> the standard.  Thus, most large applications, and especially concurrent
> applications, are vulnerable to either the compiler becoming better
> at optimizing or compilers pushing the as-if rule, however you want to
> say it.

Oh definitely.  But there is nothing the compiler can do about most
cases of undefined behaviour: it cannot detect it, and there is no way
it *can* be handled sanely.  Take for example dereferencing a pointer
that does not point to an object.


Segher

  reply	other threads:[~2021-06-06 11:41 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 125+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-06-04 10:12 Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 10:44 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 11:13   ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 11:31   ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 13:44     ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 13:56       ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 15:13         ` Will Deacon
2021-06-04 15:22           ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 15:36             ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 15:42             ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 15:51               ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 16:17                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 18:27                   ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 19:09                     ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 19:18                       ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 20:56                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 21:27                           ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 21:40                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 22:19                               ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-05 14:57                                 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06  0:14                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06  1:29                                     ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06  3:41                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06  4:43                                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 13:17                                           ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 19:07                                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 12:59                                         ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 13:47                                           ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 17:13                                             ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 18:25                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 19:19                                             ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 18:41                                         ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:59                                         ` Jakub Jelinek
2021-06-06 19:15                                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 19:22                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 20:11                                             ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 21:19                                             ` Alexander Monakov
2021-06-06 22:38                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 23:39                                                 ` Rasmus Villemoes
2021-06-06 23:44                                                   ` Rasmus Villemoes
2021-06-07  8:01                                                 ` Alexander Monakov
2021-06-07  8:27                                                   ` Marco Elver
2021-06-07 15:28                                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 17:04                                                       ` Marco Elver
2021-06-08  9:30                                                         ` Marco Elver
2021-06-08 11:22                                                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-08 15:28                                                             ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 12:44                                                               ` Marco Elver
2021-06-09 15:31                                                                 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 16:13                                                                   ` Marco Elver
2021-06-09 17:14                                                                     ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 17:31                                                                       ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-06-09 20:24                                                                         ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-09 18:25                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-07 17:52                                                   ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 18:07                                                     ` Alexander Monakov
2021-06-07 18:18                                                       ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 17:42                                                 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 20:31                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-07 22:54                                                     ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 11:53                                       ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 13:45                                         ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:04                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 18:22                                           ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:43                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-07 10:43                                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-07 11:52                                                 ` Will Deacon
2021-06-07 15:25                                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 16:02                                                     ` Will Deacon
2021-06-07 18:08                                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
     [not found]                                                   ` <20210730172020.GA32396@knuckles.cs.ucl.ac.uk>
2021-07-30 20:35                                                     ` Alan Stern
2021-08-02 21:18                                                     ` Alan Stern
2021-08-02 23:31                                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-08-04 20:09                                                       ` Alan Stern
2021-08-05 19:47                                                     ` Alan Stern
2021-08-07  0:51                                                     ` Alan Stern
2021-06-06 18:40                                           ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 18:48                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 18:53                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 19:52                                               ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 20:11                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06 20:26                                                   ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-06 23:37                                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 14:12                                                       ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 15:27                                                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 18:23                                                           ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 19:51                                                             ` Alan Stern
2021-06-07 20:16                                                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 22:40                                                                 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-07 23:26                                                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-07 10:52                                                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-07 14:16                                                       ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 22:05                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-05  3:14                       ` Alan Stern
2021-06-05 16:24                         ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 15:50         ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 15:47     ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 11:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 14:13   ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 15:35   ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 16:10     ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 16:40       ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 18:55         ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 19:53           ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 20:40             ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-06 11:36               ` Segher Boessenkool [this message]
2021-06-06 19:01                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 14:25 ` Alan Stern
2021-06-04 16:09 ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 16:33   ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 16:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 16:37   ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 16:52     ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 17:10     ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 17:24       ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 17:38         ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-04 18:25           ` Segher Boessenkool
2021-06-04 19:17         ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-06-04 20:43           ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-06-04 18:23       ` Alan Stern
2021-06-08 12:48 ` David Laight
2021-09-24 18:38 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2021-09-24 19:52   ` Alan Stern
2021-09-24 20:22     ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2021-09-24 19:55   ` Segher Boessenkool

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