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From: Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com>
To: Finn Thain <fthain@telegraphics.com.au>
Cc: James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@hansenpartnership.com>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	"Gustavo A. R. Silva" <gustavoars@kernel.org>,
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	Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@google.com>,
	Nathan Chancellor <natechancellor@gmail.com>,
	Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@kernel.org>, Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 000/141] Fix fall-through warnings for Clang
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 00:46:23 +0100
Message-ID: <CANiq72=Ybm2MHmOizo1xQ_QYGuvbthtnLbwCkr8AFb8PcfmuQw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.23.453.2011241036520.7@nippy.intranet>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 1:58 AM Finn Thain <fthain@telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>
> What I meant was that you've used pessimism as if it was fact.

"future mistakes that it might prevent" is neither pessimism nor states a fact.

> For example, "There is no way to guess what the effect would be if the
> compiler trained programmers to add a knee-jerk 'break' statement to avoid
> a warning".

It is only knee-jerk if you think you are infallible.

> Moreover, what I meant was that preventing programmer mistakes is a
> problem to be solved by development tools

This warning comes from a development tool -- the compiler.

> The idea that retro-fitting new
> language constructs onto mature code is somehow necessary to "prevent
> future mistakes" is entirely questionable.

The kernel is not a frozen codebase.

Further, "mature code vs. risk of change" arguments don't apply here
because the semantics of the program and binary output isn't changing.

> Sure. And if you put -Wimplicit-fallthrough into the Makefile and if that
> leads to well-intentioned patches that cause regressions, it is partly on
> you.

Again: adding a `fallthrough` does not change the program semantics.
If you are a maintainer and want to cross-check, compare the codegen.

> Have you ever considered the overall cost of the countless
> -Wpresume-incompetence flags?

Yeah: negative. On the other hand, the overall cost of the countless
-fI-am-infallible flags is very noticeable.

> Perhaps you pay the power bill for a build farm that produces logs that
> no-one reads? Perhaps you've run git bisect, knowing that the compiler
> messages are not interesting? Or compiled software in using a language
> that generates impenetrable messages? If so, here's a tip:
>
> # grep CFLAGS /etc/portage/make.conf
> CFLAGS="... -Wno-all -Wno-extra ..."
> CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
>
> Now allow me some pessimism: the hardware upgrades, gigawatt hours and
> wait time attributable to obligatory static analyses are a net loss.

If you really believe compiler warnings and static analysis are
useless and costly, I think there is not much point in continuing the
discussion.

> No, it's not for me to prove that such patches don't affect code
> generation. That's for the patch author and (unfortunately) for reviewers.

I was not asking you to prove it. I am stating that proving it is very easy.

Cheers,
Miguel

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-20 18:21 Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:28 ` Joe Perches
2020-11-20 19:02   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:40 ` [PATCH 134/141] video: fbdev: lxfb_ops: " Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-22 22:05   ` Sam Ravnborg
2020-11-24 14:44     ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:40 ` [PATCH 135/141] video: fbdev: pm2fb: " Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:53 ` [PATCH 000/141] " Jakub Kicinski
2020-11-20 19:04   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 19:30   ` Kees Cook
2020-11-20 19:51     ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-11-20 20:48       ` Kees Cook
2020-11-22 16:17       ` Kees Cook
2020-11-22 18:21         ` James Bottomley
2020-11-22 18:25           ` Joe Perches
2020-11-22 19:12             ` James Bottomley
2020-11-22 19:22               ` Joe Perches
2020-11-22 19:53                 ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 13:03                   ` [Intel-wired-lan] " Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-23 16:31                     ` James Bottomley
2020-11-24 21:32                       ` Kees Cook
2020-11-24 22:24                         ` Finn Thain
2020-11-24 23:15                           ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-24 23:53                             ` Finn Thain
2020-11-25  1:05                               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25  7:05                         ` James Bottomley
2020-11-25 12:24                           ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-25 21:33                             ` Finn Thain
2020-11-25 22:09                               ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-25 23:21                                 ` Finn Thain
2020-11-26  0:30                                 ` Finn Thain
     [not found]                             ` <20201125082405.1d8c23dc@kicinski-fedora-pc1c0hjn.dhcp.thefacebook.com>
2020-11-25 17:04                               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25 22:09                               ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-25 21:10                           ` Kees Cook
2020-11-22 20:35           ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-22 22:36             ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 14:19               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-23 15:58                 ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 16:24                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2020-11-23 16:32                   ` Joe Perches
2020-11-23 18:56                   ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-23 20:37                     ` James Bottomley
2020-11-25  0:32                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25 22:44                         ` Edward Cree
2020-11-26 14:53                           ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-26 15:28                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2020-11-26 16:18                               ` Karol Herbst
2020-11-26 17:05                               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25 10:38                       ` Andy Shevchenko
2020-11-25  9:01                   ` Sean Young
2020-11-22 22:54             ` Finn Thain
2020-11-22 23:04               ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 14:05               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-24  0:58                 ` Finn Thain
2020-11-24  1:05                   ` Joe Perches
2020-11-24  2:48                     ` Finn Thain
2020-11-24 23:46                   ` Miguel Ojeda [this message]
2020-11-22 22:10           ` Sam Ravnborg
2020-11-24  1:32         ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-24 21:25           ` Kees Cook
2020-11-25 23:02             ` Edward Cree
2020-12-01 14:08           ` Dan Carpenter
2020-12-01 14:04         ` Dan Carpenter
2020-11-20 22:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-23 20:03 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-11-24 14:47   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
     [not found] ` <160616392671.21180.16517492185091399884.b4-ty@kernel.org>
2020-11-24 14:47   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-12-01  5:52 ` Martin K. Petersen
2020-12-01  8:20   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-12-08  4:52 ` (subset) " Martin K. Petersen

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