From: Sage Weil <sage@newdream.net>
To: Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>
Cc: Trond Myklebust <trond.myklebust@primarydata.com>,
Zach Brown <zab@redhat.com>,
Alexander Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
Linux FS-devel Mailing List <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Linux API Mailing List <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC] vfs: add a O_NOMTIME flag
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:12:46 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1505121454000.20395@cobra.newdream.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20150512012133.GR4327@dastard>
On Tue, 12 May 2015, Dave Chinner wrote:
> > > Neither of these examples cases are under the control of the
> > > application that calls open(O_NOMTIME).
> >
> > Wouldn't a mount option (e.g., allow_nomtime) address this concern? Only
> > nodes provisioned explicitly to run these systems would be enable this
> > option.
>
> Back to my Joe Speedracer comments.....
>
> I'm not sure what the right answer is - mount options are simply too
> easy to add without understanding the full implications of them.
> e.g. we didn't merge FALLOC_FL_NO_HIDE_STALE simply because it was
> too dangerous for unsuspecting users. This isn't at that same level
> or concern, but it's still a landmine we want to avoid users from
> arming without realising it...
>
> > > >> I'm happy for it to be an ioctl interface - even an XFS specific
> > > >> interface if you want to go that route, Sage - and it probably
> > > >> should emit a warning to syslog first time it is used so there is
> > > >> trace for bug triage purposes. i.e. we know the app is not using
> > > >> mtime updates, so bug reports that are the result of mtime
> > > >> mishandling don't result in large amounts of wasted developer time
> > > >> trying to understand them...
> > > >
> > > > A warning on using the interface (or when mounting with user_nomtime)
> > > > sounds reasonable.
> > > >
> > > > I'd rather not make this XFS specific as other local filesystmes (ext4,
> > > > f2fs, possibly btrfs) would similarly benefit. (And if we want to target
> > > > XFS specifically the existing XFS open-by-handle ioctl is sufficient as it
> > > > already does O_NOMTIME unconditionally.)
> > >
> > > Lack of a namespace, doesn't imply that you don't want to manage the
> > > data. The whole point of using object storage instead of plain old
> > > block storage is to be able to provide whatever metadata you still
> > > need in order to manage the object.
> >
> > Yeah, agreed--this is presumably why open_by_handle(2) (which is what we'd
> > like to use) doesn't assume O_NOMTIME.
>
> Right - the XFS ioctls were designed specifically for applications
> that interacted directly with the structure of XFS filesystems and
> so needed invisible IO (e.g. online defragmenter). IOWs, they are
> not interfaces intended for general usage. They are also only
> available to root, so a typical user application won't be making use
> of them, either.
I understand that's what they're intended for, but I'm having a hard time
parsing out the difference between what they *do* and what O_NOMTIME + -o
allow_nomtime does. The open-by-handle ioctls have nothing to do with the
online XFS format--they simply allow you to open a file via an opaque
handle (albeit a differently formatted one than the generic
open_by_handle_at(2)). They also force you into an O_NOMTIME-equivalent
mode.
AFAICS the only difference that I see is that
1) the ioctl is XFS specific. (As open_by_handle_at(2) demonstrates, this
needn't be the case.)
2) the NOMTIME mode is only available via the open-by-handle interface,
not open(2).
3) it is an ioctl interface, and thus more obscure. (Well, there is a
libhandle library, but it doesn't seem to be widely used.)
Would you object less if
1) the O_NOMTIME flag were only available via open_by_handle_at(2)?
2) an equivalent ioctl were implemented for each file system of interest
that (say) called into open_by_handle_at(2) code, adding in the O_NOMTIME
flag?
3) O_NOMTIME required root (vs a mount option that requires root and
unpriviledged O_NOMTIME)?
Just trying to tease apart which part is problematic...
Thanks!
sage
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-05-12 23:12 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 52+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-05-06 22:00 [PATCH RFC] vfs: add a O_NOMTIME flag Zach Brown
2015-05-06 22:14 ` Trond Myklebust
2015-05-06 22:19 ` Sage Weil
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.00.1505061515550.28239-vIokxiIdD2AQNTJnQDzGJqxOck334EZe@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-06 22:41 ` Zach Brown
[not found] ` <20150506224113.GA17282-fypN+1c5dIyjpB87vu3CluTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-06 22:46 ` Sage Weil
2015-05-06 23:21 ` Theodore Ts'o
[not found] ` <1430949612-21356-1-git-send-email-zab-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-07 0:26 ` Dave Chinner
2015-05-07 17:20 ` Zach Brown
2015-05-07 18:43 ` Zach Brown
2015-05-08 1:01 ` Sage Weil
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.00.1505071752520.28239-vIokxiIdD2AQNTJnQDzGJqxOck334EZe@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-08 1:23 ` Trond Myklebust
2015-05-08 15:19 ` Sage Weil
[not found] ` <CAHQdGtQjMHA8rVPkggB2zMz=k3O667+APH_1EY_2FtYmHL7-hw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-08 22:13 ` Dave Chinner
2015-05-08 22:24 ` Sage Weil
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.00.1505081517470.28239-vIokxiIdD2AQNTJnQDzGJqxOck334EZe@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-10 23:13 ` Trond Myklebust
[not found] ` <CAHQdGtTFTN2XuvmarFZ9HPQV=cuhh7FosdHSrJME_U4htr=i8w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-11 7:31 ` Dave Chinner
2015-05-11 16:39 ` Sage Weil
2015-05-11 17:12 ` Trond Myklebust
[not found] ` <CAHQdGtT3rCf-ycAYw-=7HGaemg1+HfY8sw3+kb54VHONxDyP3w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-11 17:30 ` Sage Weil
2015-05-12 1:21 ` Dave Chinner
2015-05-12 23:12 ` Sage Weil [this message]
2015-05-13 0:57 ` Dave Chinner
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.00.1505111020120.28239-vIokxiIdD2AQNTJnQDzGJqxOck334EZe@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-12 13:41 ` John Stoffel
2015-05-11 14:47 ` Theodore Ts'o
[not found] ` <20150511144719.GA14088-AKGzg7BKzIDYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-11 16:24 ` Sage Weil
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.00.1505110920520.28239-vIokxiIdD2AQNTJnQDzGJqxOck334EZe@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-11 23:10 ` Theodore Ts'o
2015-05-12 5:08 ` Kevin Easton
[not found] ` <20150512050821.GA9404-Qr0l8DEfScZEV+tojptmR0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-12 11:45 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
[not found] ` <5551E7EB.8040301-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-12 13:54 ` John Stoffel
2015-05-12 14:36 ` J. Bruce Fields
[not found] ` <20150512143637.GA6370-uC3wQj2KruNg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-12 14:53 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-05-12 21:51 ` Dave Chinner
2015-05-13 15:16 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-05-12 22:39 ` NeilBrown
[not found] ` <20150513083951.5eb63bc0-wvvUuzkyo1EYVZTmpyfIwg@public.gmane.org>
2015-07-14 13:13 ` Pavel Machek
2015-07-15 4:54 ` NeilBrown
2015-07-22 13:47 ` Pavel Machek
2015-05-12 21:35 ` Sage Weil
2015-05-13 12:32 ` Jan Kara
2015-05-08 14:43 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-05-08 17:11 ` Zach Brown
2015-05-08 14:29 ` John Stoffel
2015-07-14 11:50 ` Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20150507172053.GA659-fypN+1c5dIyjpB87vu3CluTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-07 19:09 ` Richard Weinberger
2015-05-07 19:53 ` Andy Lutomirski
[not found] ` <554BC4D8.9010507@nod.at>
2015-05-07 20:06 ` Andy Lutomirski
[not found] ` <CALCETrWNDMq0nK3ac-uZweV5BKK_yWTQHH5D0YkyEu7bcONo9g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-08 2:42 ` Dave Chinner
2015-07-14 11:44 ` Pavel Machek
2015-05-08 2:37 ` Dave Chinner
2015-05-08 3:24 ` Andy Lutomirski
[not found] ` <CALCETrUksu5ZB4QBfC8DMwYO2OFjfPW2eWsTweZGN_gybzcsmw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-05-08 14:44 ` Eric Sandeen
2015-05-11 20:36 ` J. Bruce Fields
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