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From: James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>
To: Mimi Zohar <zohar@linux.ibm.com>,
	Chuck Lever <chucklever@gmail.com>,
	James Morris <jmorris@namei.org>
Cc: Deven Bowers <deven.desai@linux.microsoft.com>,
	Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>, Sasha Levin <sashal@kernel.org>,
	snitzer@redhat.com, dm-devel@redhat.com,
	tyhicks@linux.microsoft.com, agk@redhat.com,
	Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com>,
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>,
	nramas@linux.microsoft.com, serge@hallyn.com,
	pasha.tatashin@soleen.com, Jann Horn <jannh@google.com>,
	linux-block@vger.kernel.org, Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
	Jens Axboe <axboe@kernel.dk>,
	mdsakib@microsoft.com, open list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	eparis@redhat.com, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-audit@redhat.com,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org,
	jaskarankhurana@linux.microsoft.com
Subject: Re: [dm-devel] [RFC PATCH v5 00/11] Integrity Policy Enforcement LSM (IPE)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:35:37 -0700
Message-ID: <1597073737.3966.12.camel@HansenPartnership.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <da6f54d0438ee3d3903b2c75fcfbeb0afdf92dc2.camel@linux.ibm.com>

On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 13:16 -0400, Mimi Zohar wrote:
> On Sat, 2020-08-08 at 13:47 -0400, Chuck Lever wrote:
> > > On Aug 5, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mimi Zohar <zohar@linux.ibm.com>
> > > wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > > If block layer integrity was enough, there wouldn't have been a
> > > need for fs-verity.   Even fs-verity is limited to read only
> > > filesystems, which makes validating file integrity so much
> > > easier.  From the beginning, we've said that fs-verity signatures
> > > should be included in the measurement list.  (I thought someone
> > > signed on to add that support to IMA, but have not yet seen
> > > anything.)
> > 
> > Mimi, when you and I discussed this during LSS NA 2019, I didn't
> > fully understand that you expected me to implement signed Merkle
> > trees for all filesystems. At the time, it sounded to me like you
> > wanted signed Merkle trees only for NFS files. Is that still the
> > case?
> 
> I definitely do not expect you to support signed Merkle trees for all
> filesystems.  My interested is from an IMA perspective of measuring
> and verifying the fs-verity Merkle tree root (and header info)
> signature. This is independent of which filesystems support it.
> 
> > 
> > The first priority (for me, anyway) therefore is getting the
> > ability to move IMA metadata between NFS clients and servers
> > shoveled into the NFS protocol, but that's been blocked for various
> > legal reasons.
> 
> Up to now, verifying remote filesystem file integrity has been out of
> scope for IMA.   With fs-verity file signatures I can at least grasp
> how remote file integrity could possibly work.  I don't understand
> how remote file integrity with existing IMA formats could be
> supported. You might want to consider writing a whitepaper, which
> could later be used as the basis for a patch set cover letter.

I think, before this, we can help with the basics (and perhaps we
should sort them out before we start documenting what we'll do).  The
first basic is that a merkle tree allows unit at a time verification. 
First of all we should agree on the unit.  Since we always fault a page
at a time, I think our merkle tree unit should be a page not a block. 
Next, we should agree where the check gates for the per page accesses
should be ... definitely somewhere in readpage, I suspect and finally
we should agree how the merkle tree is presented at the gate.  I think
there are three ways:

   1. Ahead of time transfer:  The merkle tree is transferred and verified
      at some time before the accesses begin, so we already have a
      verified copy and can compare against the lower leaf.
   2. Async transfer:  We provide an async mechanism to transfer the
      necessary components, so when presented with a unit, we check the
      log n components required to get to the root
   3. The protocol actually provides the capability of 2 (like the SCSI
      DIF/DIX), so to IMA all the pieces get presented instead of IMA
      having to manage the tree

There are also a load of minor things like how we get the head hash,
which must be presented and verified ahead of time for each of the
above 3.

James




  reply index

Thread overview: 61+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-07-28 21:36 Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 01/11] scripts: add ipe tooling to generate boot policy Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 02/11] security: add ipe lsm evaluation loop and audit system Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 03/11] security: add ipe lsm policy parser and policy loading Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 04/11] ipe: add property for trust of boot volume Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 05/11] fs: add security blob and hooks for block_device Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 22:22   ` Casey Schaufler
2020-07-28 22:40     ` Al Viro
2020-07-28 23:55       ` Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 06/11] dm-verity: move signature check after tree validation Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:50   ` Eric Biggers
2020-07-28 23:55     ` Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 07/11] dm-verity: add bdev_setsecurity hook for dm-verity signature Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 08/11] ipe: add property for signed dmverity volumes Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 09/11] dm-verity: add bdev_setsecurity hook for root-hash Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 10/11] documentation: add ipe documentation Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 10/12] ipe: add property for dmverity roothash Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 11/11] cleanup: uapi/linux/audit.h Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 11/12] documentation: add ipe documentation Deven Bowers
2020-07-28 21:36 ` [RFC PATCH v5 12/12] cleanup: uapi/linux/audit.h Deven Bowers
2020-08-02 11:55 ` [RFC PATCH v5 00/11] Integrity Policy Enforcement LSM (IPE) Pavel Machek
2020-08-02 14:03   ` Sasha Levin
2020-08-02 14:31     ` Pavel Machek
2020-08-02 16:43       ` [dm-devel] " James Bottomley
2020-08-04 16:07         ` Deven Bowers
2020-08-05 15:01           ` James Bottomley
2020-08-05 16:59             ` James Morris
2020-08-05 18:15               ` Mimi Zohar
2020-08-05 23:51                 ` James Morris
2020-08-06 14:33                   ` Mimi Zohar
2020-08-07 16:41                     ` James Morris
2020-08-07 17:31                       ` Mimi Zohar
2020-08-07 18:40                         ` Mimi Zohar
2020-08-10 20:29                           ` James Morris
2020-08-08 17:47                 ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-09 17:16                   ` Mimi Zohar
2020-08-10 15:35                     ` James Bottomley [this message]
2020-08-10 16:35                       ` Mimi Zohar
2020-08-10 17:13                         ` James Bottomley
2020-08-10 17:57                           ` Mimi Zohar
2020-08-10 23:36                       ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-11  5:43                         ` James Bottomley
2020-08-11 14:48                           ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-11 15:32                             ` James Bottomley
2020-08-11 19:30                               ` Pavel Machek
2020-08-12 14:45                               ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-11 15:53                             ` James Bottomley
2020-08-12 14:15                               ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-12 15:51                                 ` James Bottomley
2020-08-13 14:42                                   ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-13 15:10                                     ` James Bottomley
2020-08-14 14:21                                       ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-11 18:28                             ` James Bottomley
2020-08-12 13:56                               ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-12 15:42                                 ` James Bottomley
2020-08-13 14:21                                   ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-13 14:42                                     ` James Bottomley
2020-08-13 14:56                                       ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-11 21:03                   ` James Morris
2020-08-12 14:18                     ` Chuck Lever
2020-08-12 17:07                       ` Deven Bowers

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