linux-pci.vger.kernel.org archive mirror
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: "Tian, Kevin" <kevin.tian@intel.com>
To: Jason Gunthorpe <jgg@mellanox.com>
Cc: "Raj, Ashok" <ashok.raj@intel.com>,
	"Jiang, Dave" <dave.jiang@intel.com>,
	"vkoul@kernel.org" <vkoul@kernel.org>,
	"megha.dey@linux.intel.com" <megha.dey@linux.intel.com>,
	"maz@kernel.org" <maz@kernel.org>,
	"bhelgaas@google.com" <bhelgaas@google.com>,
	"rafael@kernel.org" <rafael@kernel.org>,
	"gregkh@linuxfoundation.org" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	"tglx@linutronix.de" <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	"hpa@zytor.com" <hpa@zytor.com>,
	"alex.williamson@redhat.com" <alex.williamson@redhat.com>,
	"Pan, Jacob jun" <jacob.jun.pan@intel.com>,
	"Liu, Yi L" <yi.l.liu@intel.com>,
	"Lu, Baolu" <baolu.lu@intel.com>,
	"Kumar, Sanjay K" <sanjay.k.kumar@intel.com>,
	"Luck, Tony" <tony.luck@intel.com>,
	"Lin, Jing" <jing.lin@intel.com>,
	"Williams, Dan J" <dan.j.williams@intel.com>,
	"kwankhede@nvidia.com" <kwankhede@nvidia.com>,
	"eric.auger@redhat.com" <eric.auger@redhat.com>,
	"parav@mellanox.com" <parav@mellanox.com>,
	"dmaengine@vger.kernel.org" <dmaengine@vger.kernel.org>,
	"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"x86@kernel.org" <x86@kernel.org>,
	"linux-pci@vger.kernel.org" <linux-pci@vger.kernel.org>,
	"kvm@vger.kernel.org" <kvm@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: RE: [PATCH RFC 00/15] Add VFIO mediated device support and IMS support for the idxd driver.
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:13:33 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <AADFC41AFE54684AB9EE6CBC0274A5D19D8D906E@SHSMSX104.ccr.corp.intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200426191357.GB13640@mellanox.com>

> From: Jason Gunthorpe <jgg@mellanox.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 3:14 AM
[...]
> > technically Scalable IOV is definitely different from SR-IOV. It's
> > simpler in hardware. And we're not emulating SR-IOV. The point
> > is just in usage-wise we want to present a consistent user
> > experience just like passing through a PCI endpoint (PF or VF) device
> > through vfio eco-system, including various userspace VMMs (Qemu,
> > firecracker, rust-vmm, etc.), middleware (Libvirt), and higher level
> > management stacks.
> 
> Yes, I understand your desire, but at the same time we have not been
> doing device emulation in the kernel. You should at least be
> forthwright about that major change in the cover letters/etc.

I searched 'emulate' in kernel/Documentation:

Documentation/sound/alsa-configuration.rst (emulate oss on alsa)
Documentation/security/tpm/tpm_vtpm_proxy.rst (emulate virtual TPM)
Documentation/networking/generic-hdlc.txt (emulate eth on HDLC)
Documentation/gpu/todo.rst (generic fbdev emulation)
...

I believe the main reason why putting such emulations in kernel is 
because those emulated device interfaces have their established 
eco-systems and values which the kernel shouldn't break. As you 
emphasize earlier, they have good reasons for getting into kernel.

Then back to this context. Almost every newly-born Linux VMM
(firecracker, crosvm, cloud hypervisor, and some proprietary 
implementations) support only two types of devices: virtio and 
vfio, because they want to be simple and slim. Virtio provides a 
basic set of I/O capabilities required by most VMs, while vfio brings
an unified interface for gaining added values or higher performance
from assigned devices. Even Qemu supports a minimal configuration 
('microvm') now, for similar reason.  So the vfio eco-system is 
significant and represents a major trend in the virtualization space.

Then supporting vfio eco-system is actually the usage GOAL 
of this patch series, instead of an optional technique to be opted. 
vfio-pci is there for passing through standalone PCI endpoints 
(PF or VF), and vfio-mdev is there for passing through smaller 
portion of device resources but sharing the same VFIO interface 
to gain the uniform support in this eco-system. 

I believe above is the good reason for putting emulation in idxd 
driver by using vfio-mdev. Yes, it does imply that there will be 
more emulations in kernel when more Scalable-IOV (or alike) 
devices are introduced. But as explained earlier, the pci config 
space emulation can be largely consolidated and reused. and 
the remaining device specific MMIO emulation is relatively 
simple because we define virtual device interface to be same 
as or even simpler than a VF interface. Only a small set of registers 
are emulated after fast-path resource is passed through, and 
such small set of course needs to meet the normal quality 
requirement for getting into the kernel.

We'll definitely highlight this part in future cover letter. 😊

> 
> > > The only thing we get out of this is someone doesn't have to write a
> > > idxd emulation driver in qemu, instead they have to write it in the
> > > kernel. I don't see how that is a win for the ecosystem.
> >
> > No. The clear win is on leveraging classic VFIO iommu and its eco-system
> > as explained above.
> 
> vdpa had no problem implementing iommu support without VFIO. This was
> their original argument too, it turned out to be erroneous.
> 

Every wheel can be re-invented... my gut-feeling is that vdpa is for 
offloading fast-path vhost operations to the underlying accelerators. 
It is just a welcomed/reasonable extension to the existing virtio/vhost 
eco-system. For other types of devices such as idxd, we rely on the vfio
eco-system to catch up fast-evolving VMM spectrum.

Thanks
Kevin

  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-04-27 12:13 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 89+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-21 23:33 Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:33 ` [PATCH RFC 01/15] drivers/base: Introduce platform_msi_ops Dave Jiang
2020-04-26  7:01   ` Greg KH
2020-04-27 21:38     ` Dave Jiang
2020-04-28  7:34       ` Greg KH
2020-04-21 23:33 ` [PATCH RFC 02/15] drivers/base: Introduce a new platform-msi list Dave Jiang
2020-04-25 21:13   ` Thomas Gleixner
2020-05-04  0:08     ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 03/15] drivers/base: Allocate/free platform-msi interrupts by group Dave Jiang
2020-04-25 21:23   ` Thomas Gleixner
2020-05-04  0:08     ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 04/15] drivers/base: Add support for a new IMS irq domain Dave Jiang
2020-04-23 20:11   ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-01 22:30     ` Dey, Megha
2020-05-03 22:25       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-03 22:40         ` Dey, Megha
2020-05-03 22:46           ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-04  0:25             ` Dey, Megha
2020-05-04 12:14               ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-06 10:27                 ` Tian, Kevin
2020-04-25 21:38   ` Thomas Gleixner
2020-05-04  0:11     ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 05/15] ims-msi: Add mask/unmask routines Dave Jiang
2020-04-25 21:49   ` Thomas Gleixner
2020-05-04  0:16     ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 06/15] ims-msi: Enable IMS interrupts Dave Jiang
2020-04-25 22:13   ` Thomas Gleixner
2020-05-04  0:17     ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 07/15] Documentation: Interrupt Message store Dave Jiang
2020-04-23 20:04   ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-01 22:32     ` Dey, Megha
2020-05-03 22:28       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-03 22:41         ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 08/15] vfio/mdev: Add a member for iommu domain in mdev_device Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 09/15] vfio/type1: Save domain when attach domain to mdev Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 10/15] dmaengine: idxd: add config support for readonly devices Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:34 ` [PATCH RFC 11/15] dmaengine: idxd: add IMS support in base driver Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:35 ` [PATCH RFC 12/15] dmaengine: idxd: add device support functions in prep for mdev Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:35 ` [PATCH RFC 13/15] dmaengine: idxd: add support for VFIO mediated device Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:35 ` [PATCH RFC 14/15] dmaengine: idxd: add error notification from host driver to " Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:35 ` [PATCH RFC 15/15] dmaengine: idxd: add ABI documentation for mediated device support Dave Jiang
2020-04-21 23:54 ` [PATCH RFC 00/15] Add VFIO mediated device support and IMS support for the idxd driver Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-22  0:53   ` Tian, Kevin
2020-04-22 11:50     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-22 21:14       ` Raj, Ashok
2020-04-23 19:12         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-24  3:27           ` Tian, Kevin
2020-04-24 12:44             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-24 16:25               ` Tian, Kevin
2020-04-24 18:12                 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-26  5:18                   ` Tian, Kevin
2020-04-26 19:13                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-27  3:43                       ` Alex Williamson
2020-04-27 11:58                         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-27 13:19                           ` Alex Williamson
2020-04-27 13:22                             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-27 14:18                               ` Alex Williamson
2020-04-27 14:25                                 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-27 15:41                                   ` Alex Williamson
2020-04-27 16:16                                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-27 16:25                                       ` Dave Jiang
2020-04-27 21:56                                         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-29  9:42                               ` Tian, Kevin
2020-05-08 20:47                                 ` Raj, Ashok
2020-05-08 23:16                                   ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-08 23:52                                     ` Dave Jiang
2020-05-09  0:09                                     ` Raj, Ashok
2020-05-09 12:21                                       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-13  2:29                                         ` Jason Wang
2020-05-13  8:30                                         ` Tian, Kevin
2020-05-13 12:40                                           ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-27 12:13                       ` Tian, Kevin [this message]
2020-04-27 12:55                         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-04-22 21:24   ` Dan Williams
2020-04-23 19:17     ` Dan Williams
2020-04-23 19:49       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-01 22:31         ` Dey, Megha
2020-05-03 22:21           ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-03 22:32             ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-23 19:18     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-01 22:31       ` Dey, Megha
2020-05-03 22:22         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-03 22:31           ` Dey, Megha
2020-05-03 22:36             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-04  0:20               ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-22 23:04   ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-23 19:44     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-05-01 22:32       ` Dey, Megha
2020-04-24  6:31   ` Jason Wang

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=AADFC41AFE54684AB9EE6CBC0274A5D19D8D906E@SHSMSX104.ccr.corp.intel.com \
    --to=kevin.tian@intel.com \
    --cc=alex.williamson@redhat.com \
    --cc=ashok.raj@intel.com \
    --cc=baolu.lu@intel.com \
    --cc=bhelgaas@google.com \
    --cc=dan.j.williams@intel.com \
    --cc=dave.jiang@intel.com \
    --cc=dmaengine@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=eric.auger@redhat.com \
    --cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=hpa@zytor.com \
    --cc=jacob.jun.pan@intel.com \
    --cc=jgg@mellanox.com \
    --cc=jing.lin@intel.com \
    --cc=kvm@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=kwankhede@nvidia.com \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-pci@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=maz@kernel.org \
    --cc=megha.dey@linux.intel.com \
    --cc=parav@mellanox.com \
    --cc=rafael@kernel.org \
    --cc=sanjay.k.kumar@intel.com \
    --cc=tglx@linutronix.de \
    --cc=tony.luck@intel.com \
    --cc=vkoul@kernel.org \
    --cc=x86@kernel.org \
    --cc=yi.l.liu@intel.com \
    --subject='RE: [PATCH RFC 00/15] Add VFIO mediated device support and IMS support for the idxd driver.' \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).