Re: Best way (only?) to setup SSD's for using TRIM

[Curt Blank <curt@curtronics.com>]

Thanks. That made me think. Since as I said it's mainly going to contain 
the Linux OS that lessens my concern because of the static nature of those 
files. With the exception of /var/log and the MySQL DB's. /var/log files 
are rotated on a 24 hour basis, kept, then gzip'd after 14 days then kept, 
pretty much forever as long as space is available. MySQL DB's are mostly 
insert with some updates with the exception of the ZoneMinder DB which is 
mostly inserts and deletes continuously, majority of the data seldom lives 
past a month or two.

I can maybe see the need for TRIM on /var/log and maybe /mysql and 
possibly /usr/local (which is it's own MP) where I do all my code 
development.

Like I said, I'm not against compiling a kernel I just really don't want 
to have to do that every time the distribution updates and installs a new 
one.

So still looking for a way to use TRIM with RAID1 which gets me back to 
the LVM option I heard might work?

Also trying to find out if using my raid card might be the ticket but if 
not then it have to be the kernel if I want TRIM.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Roberto Spadim wrote:

> trim is used by file system to clean space to new files be writen, in other
> words, if you never need new space you won't need trim
> does your application a log like app? if yes trim is useless, the only use
> here is if you delete old log files and it normally is very rare, maybe
> once a month, maybe a week?
> 
> if you need always delete files and write new ones, yes trim can help you
> but it will not save your life, it give more 'clean' space to garbage
> collect of ssd, and ssd don't reuse spaces with informations, it will use
> new ones, so in other words a trim help ssd to write faster and dont do
> (read-merge-write)
> vertex 4 have a good firmware, i used a vertex 2 some years ago without
> trim, and it runs nice with mysql in a generic aplication with delete
> update select, it execute >300iops very easly, and 300MB/s too, i didn't
> checked a slow don't after some time using it, so i don't see why trim
> could speed a lot my app,
> try, and say what you got, it's not unsafe, and sounds good, i don't know
> about suse kernel support, but it's not hard to compile a new kernel if you
> need it
> 
> i used the vertex2 in raid1 configuration (it's better for many threads
> apps like mysql, but worst for stream application, for stream a raid10 or
> raid0 is better)
> 
> 
> 2012/10/29 Curtis J Blank <curt@curtronics.com>
> 
> >  Could you explain this a little more please? I don't understand why
> > applications come into play? Thought the file system, in this case ext4,
> > handles space allocation on the device not any application.
> >
> > And here again, I don't need TRIM, but everything I've been reading, even
> > from the SSD manufacturer, OCZ, says you do need TRIM to reduce write
> > amplification.
> >
> > If you don't need TRIM that makes things easy but my concern is write
> > amplification over time.
> >
> > [Had to resend, got rejected due to "reason: 550 5.7.1 Content-Policy
> > reject msg: The message contains HTML subpart, therefore we consider it
> > SPAM or Outlook Virus." from ThunderBird]
> >
> >
> > On 10/29/12 07:20, Roberto Spadim wrote:
> >
> > if you don't have DELETE and DROP in you application, you don't need
> > TRIM...
> >
> > 2012/10/28 Curtis J Blank <curt@curtronics.com>
> >
> >> I've got two new SSD's that I want to set up as RAID1 and use strictly
> >> for the OS and MySQL DB's partitioned accordingly.
> >>
> >> I'll be using the 3.4.6 kernel for now in openSuSE 12.2 with ext4. So
> >> after a lot of Google'n and reading it is my understanding that discard is
> >> not sent to the devices via the raid drivers. I am aware of Shaohua Li's
> >> patches to make it work but am not inclined to use them due to openSuSE's
> >> Online Update replacing the kernel. I'm not against patching and gen'ing a
> >> kernel, that used to be SOP, but just don't want deal with that overhead.
> >> Of course unless I really need to.
> >>
> >> So I've read, and if I understand things correctly, I can use LVM and
> >> RAID1 and the the discard commands will be sent to the devices. Is that
> >> correct and currently the only way or is/are there other ways?
> >>
> >> I've also read that a lot of people are saying TRIM isn't needed because
> >> the SSD's garbage collection is so good now TRIM isn't needed. But I don't
> >> see how that could work because the SSD's don't have access to the file
> >> system so they don't know which pages in the blocks are marked unused to do
> >> any consolidation and erasing. And using TRIM is suggested in a OCZ
> >> document I read and who's drives these are. Unless, the SDD when it has to
> >> change a page moves the whole block then erases the old block? But without
> >> TRIM in could be moving invalid data too because it doesn't know that and
> >> that to me sure doesn't sound efficient and this operation would be a
> >> perfect time to get rid of the invalid data if it did know.
> >>
> >> And due to PEC I'm wondering if this is even a good idea? Granted the OS
> >> files can be considered somewhat static, with the exception of /var/log so
> >> maybe that shouldn't go on the SSD, and maybe MySQL shouldn't either
> >> because for things like ZoneMinder it's DB is pretty dynamic. But with all
> >> the logging going on, and there is a lot, and the dynamic nature of the
> >> MySQL data is the exact reason I want it put it on SSD's, for the speed.
> >> See my quandary?
> >>
> >> This is my best understanding of things right now so I came here to and
> >> am asking the experts for help in clarifying and  understanding this and
> >> pick the best direction to go. Have the SSD's for a couple of weeks now but
> >> holding off using them until the I can determine the best way to use them.
> >> Oh and the SSD's are OCZ Vertex 4 VTX4-25SAT3-256G.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >> --
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >  --
> > Roberto Spadim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Roberto Spadim
>