ECN is on!

ECN is on!

[Matti Aarnio]

... and immediately I have been able to verify a bunch of
domains/servers which won't get thru when incoming connection
has ECN.    I tested all of these with Linux running ECN, and
Solaris 2.6 without ECN.  When Solaris got connection, and
ECN-Linux didn't, domain and its server got listed.

Amazing share of these troubled destination systems run some
firewall which thinks it is cool to fuck SMTP protocol.
(I mean obscuring responses given by the remote system,
 frobbing incoming protocol if some particular detail doesn't
 please the rules it presumes to play with, etc..)

I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to
let email out, but DaveM has veto there.

This list is NOT exhaustive of domains with problems, it
primarily lists only those who are subscribers of linux-kernel,
and thus accumulated (al lot) more than 1 email with "connection
timed out" status into vger's queue.


  DEST. DOMAIN                     SERVER NAME

ic.sunysb.edu                   -> bartman.ic.sunysb.edu
olympus.phys.wesleyan.edu       -> olympus.phys.wesleyan.edu
imap.reed.edu                   -> imogen.reed.edu
aplcomm.jhuapl.edu              -> dallas.jhuapl.edu
mail.utexas.edu                 -> mx2.mail.utexas.edu
cs.jhu.edu                      -> hops.cs.jhu.edu
judy.indstate.edu       - gets connected, but then freezes.
cc.usu.edu                      -> cc.usu.edu
aubi.de                         -> mail.aubi-online.de
opensource.se                   -> mail.carambole.com
routemeister.net		-> mail.carambole.com
*.swipnet.se                    -> smtp-ext.swip.net
swipnet.se                      -> smtp-ext.swip.net
get2net.dk			-> smtp-ext.swip.net
dina.kvl.dk			-> sheridan.dina.kvl.dk
enea.se				-> ruff.enea.se
able.es				-> jalon.able.es
vadoc.state.va.us		-> mail.vadoc.state.va.us
libero.it			-> smtp-in.libero.it
ra.cit.alcatel.fr		-> mail.alcatel.fr
csse.monash.edu.au		-> ld-mx.it.monash.edu.au
galactica.it			-> mail.galactica.it
ds.catv.ne.jp			-> cs14.catv.ne.jp
mailbox.dsnet.it		-> mailin.dsnet.it
lee.k12.nc.us			-> shomer.lee.k12.nc.us
sh.bel.alcatel.be		-> mx001.alcatel.be
quantum.cicese.mx		-> quantum.cicese.mx
isuzu.pl			-> isztye02.isuzu.pl
gruppocredit.it			-> mext.gruppocredit.it
debitel.net			-> mail.dnsg.net
optical.lvl.pri.bms.com		-> chimera.bms.com
us.celoxica.com			-> mail.us.embeddedsol.com
ford.com			-> mail0.allegro.net
vnnews.com			-> mail.cinet.vnn.vn
echostar.com			-> rf-mail1.echostar.com
jetform.com			-> mail.jetform.com
half.com			-> mailhub.half.com
pa.dec.com			-> ztxmail01.ztx.compaq.com
compaq.com			-> ztxmail01.ztx.compaq.com
zk3.dec.com			-> ztxmail01.ztx.compaq.com
allaire.com			-> smtp.allaire.com
catalog-international.com	-> ciexchange.catalog-international.com
lcr-m.com			-> mail1.lcr-m.net
logica.com			-> mail4.messagelabs.com
missioncriticallinux.com	-> mail.missioncriticallinux.com
msdw.com			-> mx1.ms.com
honeywell.com			-> tmpsmtp702.honeywell.com
austin.ibm.com			-> mg02.austin.ibm.com
btinternet.com			-> moongate.btinternet.com
geeksimplex.org			-> DNS A: 24.18.90.197 (home.com cable)

Re: ECN is on!

[David S. Miller]

Matti Aarnio writes:
 > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to
 > let email out, but DaveM has veto there.

I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and
get people to fix their kit.

We will remove these people, that's all.

Later,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com

Re: ECN is on!

[Alan Cox]

> Matti Aarnio writes:
>  > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to
>  > let email out, but DaveM has veto there.
> 
> I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and
> get people to fix their kit.
> 
> We will remove these people, that's all.

Since HTML email also has a spec can we remove the people who moan about that
too ;)

Alan
--
	"MIME, oh mime, how I hate thee.  Let me stick pins in you to 
	 count the ways..." -- Ben LaHaise

Re: ECN is on!

[Bohdan Vlasyuk]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:10:31PM +0300, Matti Aarnio wrote:

> This list is NOT exhaustive of domains with problems, it
> primarily lists only those who are subscribers of linux-kernel,
> and thus accumulated (al lot) more than 1 email with "connection
> timed out" status into vger's queue.
> 
>   DEST. DOMAIN                     SERVER NAME
> 
> ic.sunysb.edu                   -> bartman.ic.sunysb.edu
...
> geeksimplex.org			-> DNS A: 24.18.90.197 (home.com cable)
Please, next time you'll send such lists, sort it somehow. For example,
with vim you can do it by selecting lines with V, and then :!sort

Thanks!.

Re: ECN is on!

[Brent D. Norris]

> I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and
> get people to fix their kit.
>
Isn't this a problem though because the messge saying that ECN was enabled
was set after ECN was enabled?  Thus these people have no idea what is
going on and they probably won't know what to fix until they do.

> We will remove these people, that's all.
>
> Later,
> David S. Miller
> davem@redhat.com
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Brent Norris

Executive Advisor -- WKU-Linux

Re: ECN is on!

[Graham Murray]

Matti Aarnio <matti.aarnio@zmailer.org> writes:

> ... and immediately I have been able to verify a bunch of
> domains/servers which won't get thru when incoming connection
> has ECN.

As a matter of interest, are you also noting how many actually
negotiate ECN rather than simply responding with a "plain" SYN ACK? 

Re: ECN is on!

[Erik Mouw]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 06:51:57AM -0500, Brent D. Norris wrote:
> > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and
> > get people to fix their kit.
> >
> Isn't this a problem though because the messge saying that ECN was enabled
> was set after ECN was enabled?  Thus these people have no idea what is
> going on and they probably won't know what to fix until they do.

Not really, Dave Miller warned in advance that vger would enable ECN
Real Soon Now [tm]. If that wasn't a trigger for people to test if
their stuff could handle ECN, what does?


Erik

-- 
J.A.K. (Erik) Mouw, Information and Communication Theory Group, Department
of Electrical Engineering, Faculty of Information Technology and Systems,
Delft University of Technology, PO BOX 5031,  2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-15-2783635  Fax: +31-15-2781843  Email: J.A.K.Mouw@its.tudelft.nl
WWW: http://www-ict.its.tudelft.nl/~erik/

Re: ECN is on!

[Richard Gooch]

Alan Cox writes:
> > Matti Aarnio writes:
> >  > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to
> >  > let email out, but DaveM has veto there.
> > 
> > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and
> > get people to fix their kit.
> > 
> > We will remove these people, that's all.
> 
> Since HTML email also has a spec can we remove the people who moan
> about that too ;)

I'm sure M$ Exchange has a spec too. Doesn't mean we should support
it. As a community, we need to fight against the darkness.

> 	"MIME, oh mime, how I hate thee.  Let me stick pins in you to 
> 	 count the ways..." -- Ben LaHaise

Amen, brother!

				Regards,

					Richard....
Permanent: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au
Current:   rgooch@ras.ucalgary.ca

Re: ECN is on!

[Richard Gooch]

Brent D. Norris writes:
> > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and
> > get people to fix their kit.
> >
> > We will remove these people, that's all.
> 
> Isn't this a problem though because the messge saying that ECN was
> enabled was set after ECN was enabled?  Thus these people have no
> idea what is going on and they probably won't know what to fix until
> they do.

Dave sent a message out a week or two ago saying he was going to do it
soon. And back in January he said he'd be doing it in February. The
kernel list FAQ has stated this right at the top, in big, bright red
letters. Yesterday, after I saw Dave's announcement, I updated the FAQ
to reflect that we're now running ECN.

People have had plenty of warning. Think of it as a bonus that it
didn't happen back in February. They've had an extra 3 months to sort
something out.

I note with disgust the number of places which should know better, but
still haven't fixed their kit. Most appalling was
missionalcriticallinux.com. Shame!

Sure, Dave is being bloody-minded, but that's the only way we'll see
people get off their fat, lazy asses and fix their broken systems.
In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the
suggestion to bounce mails of the following type:
- MIME encoded
- HTML encoded
- quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to
  read).

				Regards,

					Richard....
Permanent: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au
Current:   rgooch@ras.ucalgary.ca

Re: ECN is on!

[Steve Modica]

"David S. Miller" wrote:
> 
> Matti Aarnio writes:
>  > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to
>  > let email out, but DaveM has veto there.
> 
> I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and
> get people to fix their kit.
> 
> We will remove these people, that's all.
> 
> Later,
> David S. Miller
> davem@redhat.com
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-net" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org

Perhaps it's none of my business, but it doesn't seem very sporting to
just turn something on that breaks stuff and say "you had fair
warning".  Why not shut it back off, issue a statement saying it works
now and will be re-enabled on June 10th or something, and everyone must
do thus and so or they will break on that day?

Vague things like "it'll be turned on real soon now" or ASAP really mean
"never" since admins always have things with real deadlines at the top
of their list.

Steve
-- 
Steve Modica
Manager - Networking Drivers Group
"Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day, hit him with a fish and
he leaves you alone" - me

Final Warning [ was: ECN is on! ]

[David Relson]

At 10:18 AM 5/22/01, Steve Modica wrote:


>Perhaps it's none of my business, but it doesn't seem very sporting to
>just turn something on that breaks stuff and say "you had fair
>warning".  Why not shut it back off, issue a statement saying it works
>now and will be re-enabled on June 10th or something, and everyone must
>do thus and so or they will break on that day?
>
>Vague things like "it'll be turned on real soon now" or ASAP really mean
>"never" since admins always have things with real deadlines at the top
>of their list.


I'd suggest something like:

Final Warning.  ECN is being turned on NOW.  If your firewall doesn't 
support ECN, this will be the last message that gets through to you from us.

Such a message will have the interesting characteristic of being the last 
message received.  This will make it obvious why no further messages are 
arriving.

David

--------------------------------------------------------
David Relson                   Osage Software Systems, Inc.
relson@osagesoftware.com       Ann Arbor, MI 48103
www.osagesoftware.com          tel:  734.821.8800

Re: Final Warning [ was: ECN is on! ]

[Matti Aarnio]

  Folks, don't speculate.  You are late anyway.

  We just had ECN off for two hours, and all sites which didn't
  commit harakiri at their firewalls ("bad TCP frame from that address,
  I will place that source into dead list") now either got their message,
  or are having some long-term troubles which might anyway get them
  kicked out after a few days time.
  (Long-term troubles meaning things where my solaris 2.6 machine can't
   reach those sites/servers.  D'uh...)

/Matti Aarnio


On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 10:57:34AM -0400, David Relson wrote:
> I'd suggest something like:
> 
> Final Warning.  ECN is being turned on NOW.  If your firewall doesn't 
> support ECN, this will be the last message that gets through to you from us.
> 
> Such a message will have the interesting characteristic of being the last 
> message received.  This will make it obvious why no further messages are 
> arriving.
> 
> David
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> David Relson                   Osage Software Systems, Inc.
> relson@osagesoftware.com       Ann Arbor, MI 48103
> www.osagesoftware.com          tel:  734.821.8800
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ECN is on!

[Matti Aarnio]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 09:06:25AM -0400, Richard Gooch wrote:
...
> Sure, Dave is being bloody-minded, but that's the only way we'll see
> people get off their fat, lazy asses and fix their broken systems.
> In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the
> suggestion to bounce mails of the following type:
> - MIME encoded
> - HTML encoded
> - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to
>   read).

  Bounces to where ?

  The bounces ARE in MIME, but frobbing them into HTML is ...
  That would involve my dead body, which I am not keen on supplying.

  And for that matter, people who you do want to punish do run MUAs, which
  happily open up everything -- except these bounce reports VGER generates.
  But then, vger sends those reports to linux-kernel-owner, who needs no
  additional punishment...

> 				Regards,
> 					Richard....
> Permanent: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au
> Current:   rgooch@ras.ucalgary.ca

/Matti Aarnio

Re: ECN is on!

[Tony Hoyle]

Richard Gooch wrote:

> In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the
> suggestion to bounce mails of the following type:
> - MIME encoded
> - HTML encoded
> - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to
>   read).

Surely it'd be better to get the list to filter them through stripmime?


I'd be tempted to put a message at the top at the same time:
"*WARNING* The message below was sent by someone too clueless to 
configure their email client properly"

:-)

Tony

-- 
"Two weeks before due date, the programmers work 22 hour days
  cobbling an application from... (apparently) one programmer
  bashing his face into the keyboard." -- Dilbert

tmh@magenta-netlogic.com     http://www.nothing-on.tv

Re: ECN is on!

[Matti Aarnio]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:00:22PM +0100, Tony Hoyle wrote:
> > suggestion to bounce mails of the following type:
> > - MIME encoded
> > - HTML encoded
> > - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to
> >   read).
> 
> Surely it'd be better to get the list to filter them through stripmime?

Read page:

    http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

 
> :-)
> Tony

/Matti Aarnio

Re: ECN is on!

[Rogier Wolff]

Richard Gooch wrote:
> Dave sent a message out a week or two ago saying he was going to do it
> soon. And back in January he said he'd be doing it in February. The
> kernel list FAQ has stated this right at the top, in big, bright red
> letters. Yesterday, after I saw Dave's announcement, I updated the FAQ
> to reflect that we're now running ECN.
> 
> People have had plenty of warning. Think of it as a bonus that it
> didn't happen back in February. They've had an extra 3 months to sort
> something out.

The "we'll turn it on in February" warning is worth NOTHING in this
situation: February comes and goes. March comes and goes. Everybody
who read the warning will think: Ok, so I must be fine.

A warning of the form: "ECN will go on as soon as this message clears
the queues" would've been useful, as thousands (hundreds?) suddenly get
nothing anymore.

			Roger. 

-- 
** R.E.Wolff@BitWizard.nl ** http://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2137555 **
*-- BitWizard writes Linux device drivers for any device you may have! --*
* There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots. 
* There are also old, bald pilots. 

Re: ECN is on!

[Richard Gooch]

Matti Aarnio writes:
> On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 09:06:25AM -0400, Richard Gooch wrote:
> ...
> > Sure, Dave is being bloody-minded, but that's the only way we'll see
> > people get off their fat, lazy asses and fix their broken systems.
> > In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the
> > suggestion to bounce mails of the following type:
> > - MIME encoded
> > - HTML encoded
> > - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to
> >   read).
> 
>   Bounces to where ?

To the sender, of course, who is the evil culprit.

>   And for that matter, people who you do want to punish do run MUAs,
>   which happily open up everything -- except these bounce reports
>   VGER generates.  But then, vger sends those reports to
>   linux-kernel-owner, who needs no additional punishment...

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying that these
MUAs which generate horrible messages drop bounces on the floor?!?

				Regards,

					Richard....
Permanent: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au
Current:   rgooch@ras.ucalgary.ca

Re: ECN is on!

[Richard Gooch]

Tony Hoyle writes:
> Richard Gooch wrote:
> 
> > In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the
> > suggestion to bounce mails of the following type:
> > - MIME encoded
> > - HTML encoded
> > - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to
> >   read).
> 
> Surely it'd be better to get the list to filter them through stripmime?
> 
> I'd be tempted to put a message at the top at the same time:
> "*WARNING* The message below was sent by someone too clueless to 
> configure their email client properly"

Well, while that would be somewhat satisfying, there is a problem if
the message gets corrupted by this. And since some people send to the
list without being subscribed (or, like me, have duplicate filtering),
they'll never see that their message was mangled as it passed through
the list.

Nope, a bounce is better. If you're going to do these things, feedback
is essential. The bounce isn't meant to offend the sender, it's
designed to let them know what's happening.

				Regards,

					Richard....
Permanent: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au
Current:   rgooch@ras.ucalgary.ca

Re: ECN is on!

[Steve Modica]

Rogier Wolff wrote:
> The "we'll turn it on in February" warning is worth NOTHING in this
> situation: February comes and goes. March comes and goes. Everybody
> who read the warning will think: Ok, so I must be fine.
> 
> A warning of the form: "ECN will go on as soon as this message clears
> the queues" would've been useful, as thousands (hundreds?) suddenly get
> nothing anymore.
> 

I agree with this line of thinking.  The various academics studying
geology have been warning California about "The Big One" for years now,
and no one seems to care anymore.  

I don't think anyone's being lazy and I certainly don't have the
information to comment on the size of their butts.  So I'd rather just
assume they were working very hard on other things (like getting TPC-H
benchmarks to run!)

Steve

-- 
Steve Modica
Manager - Networking Drivers Group
"Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day, hit him with a fish and
he leaves you alone" - me

Re: Final Warning [ was: ECN is on! ]

[Joe Barr]

What is ECN?  Is it the reason SNORT has started this lately:

<snip>

Active System Attack Alerts
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
May 22 10:11:18 pooh snort: spp_portscan: PORTSCAN DETECTED from 199.183.24.194 (STEALTH)
May 22 10:11:22 pooh snort: spp_portscan: portscan status from 199.183.24.194: 1 connections across 1 hosts: TCP(1), UDP(0) STEALTH

</snip>

See ya,
Joe Barr




On Tue, 22 May 2001 10:57:34 -0400




David Relson <relson@osagesoftware.com> wrote:

> At 10:18 AM 5/22/01, Steve Modica wrote:
> 
> 
> >Perhaps it's none of my business, but it doesn't seem very sporting to
> >just turn something on that breaks stuff and say "you had fair
> >warning".  Why not shut it back off, issue a statement saying it works
> >now and will be re-enabled on June 10th or something, and everyone must
> >do thus and so or they will break on that day?
> >
> >Vague things like "it'll be turned on real soon now" or ASAP really mean
> >"never" since admins always have things with real deadlines at the top
> >of their list.
> 
> 
> I'd suggest something like:
> 
> Final Warning.  ECN is being turned on NOW.  If your firewall doesn't 
> support ECN, this will be the last message that gets through to you from us.
> 
> Such a message will have the interesting characteristic of being the last 
> message received.  This will make it obvious why no further messages are 
> arriving.
> 
> David
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> David Relson                   Osage Software Systems, Inc.
> relson@osagesoftware.com       Ann Arbor, MI 48103
> www.osagesoftware.com          tel:  734.821.8800
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 


-- 

#--------------------------------------------------#
| Joe Barr                   warthawg@blackhat.net |
| Longears and Linux........... nowhere but Texas! |
#--------------------------------------------------#

Re: ECN is on!

[Matti Aarnio]

  FOLKS, I HAVE ALL THE TIME USED 'Reply-To:' HEADER POINTING
  TO  linux-kernel -- INSTEAD OF ALL THE LISTS...

  If you want to continue this, do it there.
  (Before I decide to taboo "Re: ECN is on!" subject line..)


On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 12:23:29PM -0400, Richard Gooch wrote:
...
> Well, while that would be somewhat satisfying, there is a problem if
> the message gets corrupted by this. And since some people send to the
> list without being subscribed (or, like me, have duplicate filtering),
> they'll never see that their message was mangled as it passed through
> the list.
> 
> Nope, a bounce is better. If you're going to do these things, feedback
> is essential. The bounce isn't meant to offend the sender, it's
> designed to let them know what's happening.

	The only GOOD time to bounce is at SMTP reception
	into VGER, not latter.  It doesn't have facilities
	to do all what Majordomo taboo filters do now.
	(Just because I have been lazy and haven't done
	 any such content filters for vger.)

	With ECN on, emailed bounce messages won't (necessarily)
	make it to the sender at all.

	Majordomo's filter bounces the message to be approved
	by list owner -- who usually uses the 'D' key to my
	knowledge.

> 				Regards,
> 
> 					Richard....
> Permanent: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au
> Current:   rgooch@ras.ucalgary.ca

/Matti Aarnio

Re: Final Warning [ was: ECN is on! ]

[Matti Aarnio]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 11:55:59AM -0500, Joe Barr wrote:
> What is ECN?  Is it the reason SNORT has started this lately:

    http://vger.kernel.org/

  Follow the links, and you will get an exellent answer.

> <snip>
> Active System Attack Alerts
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> May 22 10:11:18 pooh snort: spp_portscan: PORTSCAN DETECTED from 199.183.24.194 (STEALTH)
> May 22 10:11:22 pooh snort: spp_portscan: portscan status from 199.183.24.194: 1 connections across 1 hosts: TCP(1), UDP(0) STEALTH
> </snip>
> 
> See ya,
> Joe Barr

/Matti Aarnio

Re: ECN is on!

[Matthias Andree]

Richard Gooch <rgooch@ras.ucalgary.ca> writes:

> Sure, Dave is being bloody-minded, but that's the only way we'll see
> people get off their fat, lazy asses and fix their broken systems.
> In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the
> suggestion to bounce mails of the following type:
> - MIME encoded
> - HTML encoded
> - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to
>   read).

MIME is no encoding, but a way to declare mail contents and encode
binary data. You need not use it on mail you send.

HTML is no encoding. (No doubt it's usually sent by people without A
Clue[tm] or being ruthless.)

quoted-printable is an encoding, and it's probably around for ten years
now. I can send base64 if you like that better, but then, even more
people will cry, while others don't even notice. 

Gnus 5.8 + Emacs, mutt, Netscape Communicator are three packages which
deal with MIME-"enhanced" mail.

Plus, people which use any characters beyond ASCII have no real choice
but to use MIME; if they have MTAs in between that don't talk
ESMTP/8BITMIME, then quoted-printable is what happens.

Use emil, metamail or such if you want to keep your mailer.

-- 
Matthias Andree

Re: ECN is on!

[Matti Aarnio]

  Folks, herewith I declare this topic ("ECN is on") TABOO, if
  you want to continue discussing it, do that at   linux-kernel
  WITH NEW TOPIC.

  My original message had  reply-to  pointing to  linux-kernel,
  but all it takes is single person to ignore that...

  Spare the other lists, my original intention was to "spread
  the word", as not everybody subscribes  linux-kernel ...

/Matti Aarnio