Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

The following configuration symbols in 2.4.6pre5 do not have 
Congfgure.help entries,:

CONFIG_ACPI_AC
CONFIG_ACPI_BUSMGR
CONFIG_ACPI_BUTTON
CONFIG_ACPI_CMBATT
CONFIG_ACPI_CPU
CONFIG_ACPI_DEBUG
CONFIG_ACPI_EC
CONFIG_ACPI_SYS
CONFIG_ACPI_THERMAL
CONFIG_MOMENCO_OCELOT
CONFIG_MTD_CFI_VIRTUAL_ER
CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310

Would the responsible parties please send me doocumentation for the 
Configure.help masters?
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they
are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America
cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the people are armed,
and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.
	-- Noah Webster

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Russell King]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 03:49:34PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310

I think we've covered this one before.

This symbol only exists as an undefined reference at the moment, and
therefore can never be 'y'.  As such, there is little point in providing
help for it.

Even the master ARM tree doesn't contain its definition yet, so please,
stop bringing it up.

The reason you have it is that stuff has come via a different route which
relies on it - via the MTD CVS tree.

The symbol is therefore currently irrelevent, and can be placed on your
"ignore" list.

--
Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk)                The developer of ARM Linux
             http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

Russell King <rmk@arm.linux.org.uk>:
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 03:49:34PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310
> 
> I think we've covered this one before.

Yes.  But if I don't ask, I won't ncessarily know when it changes status.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the
*government*, not to *society*; and as long as they have nothing to
revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their
own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the 
use of arms, and no possible disadvantage.
        -- Joel Barlow, "Advice to the Privileged Orders", 1792-93

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[David Woodhouse]

esr@thyrsus.com said:
> > I think we've covered this one before.
> Yes.  But if I don't ask, I won't ncessarily know when it changes
> status.

It hasn't changed status in the last five days since your query was last 
answered. When it gets defined in arch/arm/config.in, its status has 
changed. Until that happens, please don't keep asking about it every few 
dayus.

--
dwmw2

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>:
> It hasn't changed status in the last five days since your query was last 
> answered. When it gets defined in arch/arm/config.in, its status has 
> changed. Until that happens, please don't keep asking about it every few 
> dayus.

You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't write
help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated.
That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

I don't like the idea that the police department seems bent on keeping
a pool of unarmed victims available for the predations of the criminal
class.
         -- David Mohler, 1989, on being denied a carry permit in NYC

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Russell King]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:49:34AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't write
> help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated.
> That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to.

The people you're irritating are not the people who create these symbols
though, so its a little pointless.

--
Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk)                The developer of ARM Linux
             http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

Russell King <rmk@arm.linux.org.uk>:
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:49:34AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> > You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't write
> > help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated.
> > That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to.
> 
> The people you're irritating are not the people who create these symbols
> though, so its a little pointless.

Irritating port managers a little is good, too.  Sometimes, they can get 
the right person to move.  It's happened before.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

A ``decay in the social contract'' is detectable; there is a growing
feeling, particularly among middle-income taxpayers, that they are not
getting back, from society and government, their money's worth for
taxes paid. The tendency is for taxpayers to try to take more control
of their finances ..
	-- IRS Strategic Plan, (May 1984)

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Russell King]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:54:26AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> Irritating port managers a little is good, too.  Sometimes, they can get 
> the right person to move.  It's happened before.

You really don't want to irritate me, especially when its over something
I have precisely zero control over that I didn't even submit, or have the
ability of submitting either.

--
Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk)                The developer of ARM Linux
             http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Brent D. Norris]

> You really don't want to irritate me, especially when its over something
> I have precisely zero control over that I didn't even submit, or have the
> ability of submitting either.

"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I am angry"
				 -- Dr. Bruce Banner

C'mon guys you are each trying to do your job. No sense getting crazy over
it.

Brent Norris

Executive Advisor -- WKU-Linux

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Wichert Akkerman]

In article <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com>,
Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
>You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't write
>help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated.
>That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to.

You mean you actually want people to start ignoring you?

Wichert.

-- 
  _________________________________________________________________
 /       Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool     \
| wichert@wiggy.net                   http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ |
| 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0  2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |

-- 
  _________________________________________________________________
 /       Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool     \
| wichert@wiggy.net                   http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ |
| 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0  2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Rob Landley]

On Friday 22 June 2001 10:00, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> In article <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com>,
>
> Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
> >You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't write
> >help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated.
> >That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to.
>
> You mean you actually want people to start ignoring you?


There's a really simple solution to that.  Eric can just make up his own help 
file entries that are wildly inaccurate and actively insulting to whoever it 
is who owns the symbol.  Something along the lines of:

"Enabling this subsystem may cause your house to burn down and your dog to 
explode.  The prevailing opinion is that Linus was probably blackmailed into 
including this option by someone with naked pictures of his cat.  It's 
useless and irritating, and just might be removed soon, so don't count on it 
continuing to be there.  Nobody knows how to use it because they didn't 
provide any documentation for it."

Then they're welcome to ignore it. :)

Rob

(As mel brooks said, it's good to be the help file maintainer...)

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[David Woodhouse]

landley@webofficenow.com said:
>  There's a really simple solution to that.  Eric can just make up his
> own help  file entries that are wildly inaccurate and actively
> insulting to whoever it  is who owns the symbol. 

Heh. Lets not be too harsh though. Chasing people who add config options
without help text is a thankless task for the most part, but I'm grateful to
ESR for doing it. I must admit I was actually counting on him to catch the
ones I'd missed.

It was only when he ignored my patch which removed an offending symbol and
explained the status of a couple of false positives, and kept asking about
them instead of placing them on his 'ignore' list that it became irritating.

I objected, he assures me they're on the ignore list now, and we're all 
happy.

--
dwmw2

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Alan Cox]

> You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't write
> help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated.
> That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to.

Umm yes so you irritate people and you end up in their killfiles, that doesn't
strike me as stunningly productive

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
> > You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't write
> > help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated.
> > That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to.
> 
> Umm yes so you irritate people and you end up in their killfiles,
> that doesn't strike me as stunningly productive

That's why it's important to be irritating but not obnoxious.  The
difference is that between reminding people that there is work to be done
and being insulting about it.  Thus, I post lists of symbols for which
there is missing help, but I don't cast aspersions on the people who
haven't come through yet (however tempting that sometimes seems).

I also find it helpful to be up front about *why* I'm being irritating,
just as I'm doing now.  When people understand that it's professional
rather than personal, they don't tend to killfile me.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

"To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
        -- George Mason, speech of June 14, 1788

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[David Woodhouse]

esr@thyrsus.com said:
>  You're a bit irritated.  That's good.  I *want* people who don't
> write help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit
> irritated. That way, they might get around to actually doing what they
> ought to.

I wasn't irritated the first time. I sent you a patch which added all the
help entries I'd missed, and thanked you for checking. To be honest, I'd
actually been counting on you to do that for me and catch the ones I'd 
missed.

The irritation only happened because you seem to have ignored the remainder
of my original response and patch - which explained the status of the Ocelot
and XScale options, and which removed the other offending option from
Config.in completely. I'd removed the corresponding code before syncing up
with Linus because it wanted rewriting before it could be submitted, just
forgotten to remove the config option for it.

I'm already rejecting patches which add new config entries but don't add 
the corresponding help text. What more do you want?

--
dwmw2

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>:
> The irritation only happened because you seem to have ignored the remainder
> of my original response and patch - which explained the status of the Ocelot
> and XScale options, and which removed the other offending option from
> Config.in completely. I'd removed the corresponding code before syncing up
> with Linus because it wanted rewriting before it could be submitted, just
> forgotten to remove the config option for it.

No, I remember that.  But if I don't remind lkml periodically that there is
work not done on this, I fear it will slide to the bottom of peoples'
to-do lists and fall off.  That's how we got to the distressing state where
about 1/4 of the configuration symbols weren't documented.  

I solved this problem by (a) working like a dog at writing help
entries myself, and (b) using a combination of supplication and
irritation on configuration maintainers to get them to hold up their
end.  This was effective; we've gone from 537 undocumented symbols to 2.

In any situation like this, supplication tends to work well initially;
you catch the cooperative people who would almost have done what you
needed anyway, which is usually 60% or more of them.  As you get
towards the bottom of the barrel, (subtle) irritation becomes more
important.  While it isn't *necessarily* the case that the last few
holdouts won't move unless you're a persistent pain in the butt about
it, that's the smart way to bet.

(I've done jobs like this before.  Couldn't you tell?  :-))

> I'm already rejecting patches which add new config entries but don't add 
> the corresponding help text. What more do you want?

That's very good, and I thank you for that policy.   From *you*, I don't
want anything else.  From the person(s) reponsible for the missing symbols,
I want documentation.  The problem is that, lacking a detailed database
of who is responsible for what, I don't know how to prod each of the
people I really want to supplicate/irritate without having you see it
also.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic
weapons.  A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple
weapon -- so long as there is no answer to it -- gives claws to the
weak.
        -- George Orwell, "You and the Atom Bomb", 1945

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[David Woodhouse]

esr@thyrsus.com said:
>  From the person(s) reponsible for the missing symbols, I want
> documentation.  The problem is that, lacking a detailed database of
> who is responsible for what, I don't know how to prod each of the
> people I really want to supplicate/irritate without having you see it
> also.

In fact, in the case of the Ocelot and IQ80310, I _am_ the person 
responsible for their visibility in Linus' tree at the moment, so you
shouldn't be hassling the owners of those symbols.

I put the references there, as guards for drivers which are specific to
those platforms, although the rest of the support for those platforms hasn't
yet been merged into Linus' tree.

Until such time as the {Strong,}ARM and MIPS arch maintainers feed the rest 
of the code to support these platforms to Linus, it's unfair to hassle them
for the documentation. And until that time, it's not strictly necessary 
either, because the user can't even see the options in question, surely?

You could perhaps argue that I shouldn't have sent code to Linus which 
can't yet be enabled and used. If you did, I'd disagree with that.

The VIRTUAL_ER option is also my fault, and will go away shortly - it just
depends on how many times I have to resend the patch to Linus.

--
dwmw2

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[David Woodhouse]

esr@thyrsus.com said:
>  Alas, my report generators aren't smart enough to know that.  The
> CML1  config syntax makes it hard to extract that kind of information,
> and  I haven't worked at it because the CML2 cutover looks like
> happening fairly soon.  When I know there's an exception case, I put
> it on my  ignore list.

OK. You didn't put these two on your ignore list the first time I told you
about them. Can I assume, then, that you've done so now and you won't be
asking about them again for a while?

I'll resend the patch which removes the unused VIRTUAL_ER config option if 
Linus hasn't applied it when 2.4.6 proper comes out.

--
dwmw2

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>:
> OK. You didn't put these two on your ignore list the first time I told you
> about them. Can I assume, then, that you've done so now and you won't be
> asking about them again for a while?

Yes.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

"Say what you like about my bloody murderous government," I says,
"but don't insult me poor bleedin' country."
	-- Edward Abbey

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:

> The following configuration symbols in 2.4.6pre5 do not have
> Congfgure.help entries,:
[...]
> CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310

1- This symbol is mine;
2- It is part of 2.4.6-pre5 only as a dependency argument, with no
   point where a value is actually assigned to it;
3- It is likely to be different when the actual question for which the
   user need an help text is merged into the mainline kernel.

So you can safely ignore it for now.

Maybe it could be a good thing for your tool to ignore missing help text for
symbols that don't get enabled interactively by the user?


Nicolas

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Russell King]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 06:22:22PM -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> > The following configuration symbols in 2.4.6pre5 do not have
> > Congfgure.help entries,:
> [...]
> > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310
> 
> 1- This symbol is mine;
> 2- It is part of 2.4.6-pre5 only as a dependency argument, with no
>    point where a value is actually assigned to it;
> 3- It is likely to be different when the actual question for which the
>    user need an help text is merged into the mainline kernel.
> 
> So you can safely ignore it for now.
> 
> Maybe it could be a good thing for your tool to ignore missing help text for
> symbols that don't get enabled interactively by the user?

Eric - would it be easier if I just define_bool CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 n ?

--
Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk)                The developer of ARM Linux
             http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

Russell King <rmk@arm.linux.org.uk>:
> Eric - would it be easier if I just define_bool CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 n ?

I've done that in my rulesfile, thanks.  Here is the current list of ignored
symbols:

derive CMDLINE_BOOL from n
derive CPU_ADVANCED from EXPERT
derive DRM_AGP from DRM and AGP!=n
derive FB_PCI from FB and PCI
derive FB_TBOX from n
derive NET_ISA from NET_ETHERNET and ISA
derive NET_PCI from NET_ETHERNET and (EISA or PCI)
derive PARTITION_ADVANCED from EXPERT
# These are scheduled to be removed, according to the ARM port manager.
derive CPU_ARM920_CPU_IDLE from n
derive CPU_ARM920_D_CACHE_ON from n
derive CPU_ARM920_I_CACHE_ON from n
# Nicolas Pitre says "This one is currently unmaintained and likely to be 
# removed altogether."
derive SA1100_SHERMAN from n
# These are used in config.in files but nowhere in C code or Makefiles.
# Check this with `scripts/kxref.py -l -f "o&~m&~c&~h&~x" -n defconfig'
derive ARCH_SHARK from n
derive ARCH_TBOX from n
derive BAGETBSM from n
derive CPU_ARM1020 from n
derive CPU_ARM920_WRITETHROUGH from n
derive ETRAX_LED10Y from n
derive ETRAX_LED11Y from n
derive ETRAX_LED12R from n
derive ETRAX_LED8Y from n
derive ETRAX_LED9Y from n
derive GEN_RTC from n
derive GSC from n
derive GSC_DINO from n
derive GSC_PS2 from n
derive LASI_82596 from n
derive MIPS_GT96100 from n
derive PCI_PERMEDIA from n
derive PROFILE from n
derive PROFILE_SHIFT from n
derive SCSI_DECSII from n
derive SCSI_LASI from n
derive SCSI_SIM from n
derive SERIAL_21285_OLD from n
derive SIMETH from n
derive SIM_SERIAL from n
derive USERIAL from n
derive XSCALE_IQ80310 from n

-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

"The state calls its own violence `law', but that of the individual `crime'"
	-- Max Stirner

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[David Woodhouse]

esr@thyrsus.com said:
>  I've done that in my rulesfile, thanks.  Here is the current list of
> ignored symbols:

> derive CMDLINE_BOOL from n
 ....etc...


That'll nicely break oldconfig behaviour when the options in question do 
get merged into the main tree, won't it?

Can you make them optional instead? So for normal users they're still 
_really_ undefined, and hence get asked about when they appear, rather than 
defaulting to 'n'.

--
dwmw2

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>:
> 
> esr@thyrsus.com said:
> >  I've done that in my rulesfile, thanks.  Here is the current list of
> > ignored symbols:
> 
> > derive CMDLINE_BOOL from n
>  ....etc...
> 
> 
> That'll nicely break oldconfig behaviour when the options in question do 
> get merged into the main tree, won't it?

Actually, what will happen is that when the symbol goes active and I know 
about it, I'll add a declaration to the symbols table.  Then, if I've
forgotten that I had the symbol on my ignore list, I'll get a compilation
error the next time I try to builsd a rulebase.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

A ``decay in the social contract'' is detectable; there is a growing
feeling, particularly among middle-income taxpayers, that they are not
getting back, from society and government, their money's worth for
taxes paid. The tendency is for taxpayers to try to take more control
of their finances ..
	-- IRS Strategic Plan, (May 1984)

Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Eric S. Raymond]

Nicolas Pitre <nico@cam.org>:
> > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310
> 
> 1- This symbol is mine;
> 2- It is part of 2.4.6-pre5 only as a dependency argument, with no
>    point where a value is actually assigned to it;
> 3- It is likely to be different when the actual question for which the
>    user need an help text is merged into the mainline kernel.
> 
> So you can safely ignore it for now.

I've put it on my ignore list.
 
> Maybe it could be a good thing for your tool to ignore missing help text for
> symbols that don't get enabled interactively by the user?

It already does that for derivations (in CML1, define_*).  The real problem 
here is that my report generators aren't smart enough to tell when a CML1
symbol is referenced in a CML1 config but never set.  That problem could be
solved, but it's unusual that I don't think it's worth the effort.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme
Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the
fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1823

RE: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5

[Holzrichter, Bruce]

>From the person(s) reponsible for the missing symbols,
>I want documentation.  The problem is that, lacking a detailed database
>of who is responsible for what, I don't know how to prod each of the
>people I really want to supplicate/irritate without having you see it
>also.

Now that sounds like a credible idea.  Would it be possible to set up a LK
maintainers master list, and host from www.kernel.org or somewhere (Not
knowing anyone at kernel.org, I can't speak for them.) that could be linked
from sites, and have one person or maintainer in charge of keeping track of
who is in charge of maintaining what.  This could be a point of contact for
issues like this, and where they can be addressed.  It would be a large
administrative project, but could be a point of help for some of us who are
not quite capable of real kernel level hacking yet :o)

B.

PS.  I may have just volunteered, I guess.  If someone would be interested,
or if their already is a list, let me know offline if you prefer.