SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Udo Hoerhold]

Hello,

I've been running Debian woody with 2.4.20 kernel.  I'm trying to switch to 
2.5.  I built 2.5.67 with emu10k driver in the kernel (same as I had with 
2.4.20), but I get only a lot of popping sounds from the sound card.  I also 
tried 2.5.50 and 2.5.67-mm3, with the same result.  I googled for emu10k and 
soundblaster with 2.5, but I haven't seen anyone else with the same problem.  
Does anyone know what this problem is?

Thanks,

Udo Hoerhold

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Robert Love]

On Tue, 2003-04-15 at 20:01, Udo Hoerhold wrote:

> I've been running Debian woody with 2.4.20 kernel.  I'm trying to switch to 
> 2.5.  I built 2.5.67 with emu10k driver in the kernel (same as I had with 
> 2.4.20), but I get only a lot of popping sounds from the sound card.  I also 
> tried 2.5.50 and 2.5.67-mm3, with the same result.  I googled for emu10k and 
> soundblaster with 2.5, but I haven't seen anyone else with the same problem.  
> Does anyone know what this problem is?

Not sure.  It seems to work fine here.

Are you using ALSA or OSS?  Best bet is ALSA.  You want something like:
        
        CONFIG_SND=y
        CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER=y
        CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL=y
        CONFIG_SND_MIXER_OSS=y
        CONFIG_SND_PCM_OSS=y
        CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER_OSS=y
        CONFIG_SND_EMU10K1=y

And then do not include any of the OSS stuff.

Then a normal audio playback on /dev/audio or whatever should work fine.

If not, do you see any errors during boot?

	Robert Love

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Udo Hoerhold]

On Tuesday 15 April 2003 09:49 pm, Robert Love wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-04-15 at 20:01, Udo Hoerhold wrote:
> > I've been running Debian woody with 2.4.20 kernel.  I'm trying to
> > switch to 2.5.  I built 2.5.67 with emu10k driver in the kernel (same
> > as I had with 2.4.20), but I get only a lot of popping sounds from the
> > sound card. I also tried 2.5.50 and 2.5.67-mm3, with the same result. 
> > I googled for emu10k and soundblaster with 2.5, but I haven't seen
> > anyone else with the same problem. Does anyone know what this problem
> > is?
>
> Not sure.  It seems to work fine here.
>
> Are you using ALSA or OSS?  Best bet is ALSA.  You want something like:
>
>         CONFIG_SND=y
>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER=y
>         CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL=y
>         CONFIG_SND_MIXER_OSS=y
>         CONFIG_SND_PCM_OSS=y
>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER_OSS=y
>         CONFIG_SND_EMU10K1=y
>
> And then do not include any of the OSS stuff.
>
> Then a normal audio playback on /dev/audio or whatever should work fine.
>
> If not, do you see any errors during boot?
>
> 	Robert Love

I have the exact configuration you have above.  The soundcard is detected,
but I do get one error:

Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver
Version 0.9.2 (Thu Mar 20$
Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: request_module: failed /sbin/modprobe --
snd-card-0. error = -16
Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 10 for device 02:0b.0
Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 10 with 00:1f.2
Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: ALSA device list:
Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel:   #0: Sound Blaster Live! (rev.7) at
0xdf80, irq 10

I've been ignoring modprobe errors because I know there are some issues
with 2.5 kernel and modules, and I'm compiling everything into the kernel. 
Could this be causing a problem, though?

Thanks,

Udo Hoerhold

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Randy.Dunlap]

> On Tuesday 15 April 2003 09:49 pm, Robert Love wrote:
>> On Tue, 2003-04-15 at 20:01, Udo Hoerhold wrote:
>> > I've been running Debian woody with 2.4.20 kernel.  I'm trying to switch
>> to 2.5.  I built 2.5.67 with emu10k driver in the kernel (same as I had
>> with 2.4.20), but I get only a lot of popping sounds from the sound
>> card. I also tried 2.5.50 and 2.5.67-mm3, with the same result.  I
>> googled for emu10k and soundblaster with 2.5, but I haven't seen anyone
>> else with the same problem. Does anyone know what this problem is?
>>
>> Not sure.  It seems to work fine here.
>>
>> Are you using ALSA or OSS?  Best bet is ALSA.  You want something like:
>>
>>         CONFIG_SND=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_MIXER_OSS=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_PCM_OSS=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER_OSS=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_EMU10K1=y
>>
>> And then do not include any of the OSS stuff.
>>
>> Then a normal audio playback on /dev/audio or whatever should work fine.
>>
>> If not, do you see any errors during boot?
>>
>> 	Robert Love
>
> I have the exact configuration you have above.  The soundcard is detected,
> but I do get one error:
>
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver
> Version 0.9.2 (Thu Mar 20$
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: request_module: failed /sbin/modprobe --
> snd-card-0. error = -16
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 10 for device 02:0b.0 Apr 15
> 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 10 with 00:1f.2
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: ALSA device list:
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel:   #0: Sound Blaster Live! (rev.7) at
> 0xdf80, irq 10
>
> I've been ignoring modprobe errors because I know there are some issues with
> 2.5 kernel and modules, and I'm compiling everythiu10k and soundblaster with
2.5, but I haven't seen anyone
>> else with the same problem. Does anyone know what this problem is?
>>
>> Not sure.  It seems to work fine here.
>>
>> Are you using ALSA or OSS?  Best bet is ALSA.  You want something like:
>>
>>         CONFIG_SND=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_MIXER_OSS=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_PCM_OSS=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER_OSS=y
>>         CONFIG_SND_EMU10K1=y
>>
>> And then do not include any of the OSS stuff.
>>
>> Then a normal audio playback on /dev/audio or whatever should work fine.
>>
>> If not, do you see any errors during boot?
>>
>> 	Robert Love
>
> I have the exact configuration you have above.  The soundcard is detected,
> but I do get one error:
>
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver
> Version 0.9.2 (Thu Mar 20$
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: request_module: failed /sbin/modprobe --
> snd-card-0. error = -16
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 10 for device 02:0b.0 Apr 15
> 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 10 with 00:1f.2
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: ALSA device list:
> Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel:   #0: Sound Blaster Live! (rev.7) at
> 0xdf80, irq 10
>
> I've been ignoring modprobe errors because I know there are some issues with
> 2.5 kernel and modules, and I'm compiling everything into the kernel.  Could
> this be causing a problem, though?

I don't think you need to be ignoring module problems now.

Do you have emu10k1 built as loadable module or in-kernel?

-16 error is saying that the IO region or the IRQ is busy so the
driver can't allocate it.

Is /sbin/modprobe a current version (for 2.5.50++ and recent)?

~Randy

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Udo Hoerhold]

On Wednesday 16 April 2003 12:58 am, Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> >> On Tue, 2003-04-15 at 20:01, Udo Hoerhold wrote:
> >> > I've been running Debian woody with 2.4.20 kernel.  I'm trying to
> >> > switch
> >>
> >> to 2.5.  I built 2.5.67 with emu10k driver in the kernel (same as I had
> >> with 2.4.20), but I get only a lot of popping sounds from the sound
> >> card. I also tried 2.5.50 and 2.5.67-mm3, with the same result.  I
> >> googled for emu10k and soundblaster with 2.5, but I haven't seen anyone
> >> else with the same problem. Does anyone know what this problem is?
> >>
> >> Not sure.  It seems to work fine here.
> >>
> >> Are you using ALSA or OSS?  Best bet is ALSA.  You want something like:
> >>
> >>         CONFIG_SND=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_MIXER_OSS=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_PCM_OSS=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER_OSS=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_EMU10K1=y
> >>
> >> And then do not include any of the OSS stuff.
> >>
> >> Then a normal audio playback on /dev/audio or whatever should work fine.
> >>
> >> If not, do you see any errors during boot?
> >>
> >> 	Robert Love
> >
> > I have the exact configuration you have above.  The soundcard is
> > detected, but I do get one error:
> >
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver
> > Version 0.9.2 (Thu Mar 20$
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: request_module: failed /sbin/modprobe --
> > snd-card-0. error = -16
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 10 for device 02:0b.0 Apr
> > 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 10 with 00:1f.2
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: ALSA device list:
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel:   #0: Sound Blaster Live! (rev.7) at
> > 0xdf80, irq 10
> >
> > I've been ignoring modprobe errors because I know there are some issues
> > with 2.5 kernel and modules, and I'm compiling everythiu10k and
> > soundblaster with
>
> 2.5, but I haven't seen anyone
>
> >> else with the same problem. Does anyone know what this problem is?
> >>
> >> Not sure.  It seems to work fine here.
> >>
> >> Are you using ALSA or OSS?  Best bet is ALSA.  You want something like:
> >>
> >>         CONFIG_SND=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_MIXER_OSS=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_PCM_OSS=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_SEQUENCER_OSS=y
> >>         CONFIG_SND_EMU10K1=y
> >>
> >> And then do not include any of the OSS stuff.
> >>
> >> Then a normal audio playback on /dev/audio or whatever should work fine.
> >>
> >> If not, do you see any errors during boot?
> >>
> >> 	Robert Love
> >
> > I have the exact configuration you have above.  The soundcard is
> > detected, but I do get one error:
> >
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver
> > Version 0.9.2 (Thu Mar 20$
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: request_module: failed /sbin/modprobe --
> > snd-card-0. error = -16
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 10 for device 02:0b.0 Apr
> > 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 10 with 00:1f.2
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: ALSA device list:
> > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel:   #0: Sound Blaster Live! (rev.7) at
> > 0xdf80, irq 10
> >
> > I've been ignoring modprobe errors because I know there are some issues
> > with 2.5 kernel and modules, and I'm compiling everything into the
> > kernel.  Could this be causing a problem, though?
>
> I don't think you need to be ignoring module problems now.
>
> Do you have emu10k1 built as loadable module or in-kernel?
>
> -16 error is saying that the IO region or the IRQ is busy so the
> driver can't allocate it.
>
> Is /sbin/modprobe a current version (for 2.5.50++ and recent)?
>
> ~Randy

It's compiled into the kernel.  I'm not sure why I would be getting modprobe 
errors, everything is compiled in.  I have module-init-tools 0.9.11a, which 
is the right modprobe for 2.5.46 and up, right?

Udo

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:00:57 -0400 Udo Hoerhold <maillists@goodontoast.com> wrote:

| On Wednesday 16 April 2003 12:58 am, Randy.Dunlap wrote:

| > >
| > > I have the exact configuration you have above.  The soundcard is
| > > detected, but I do get one error:
| > >
| > > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver
| > > Version 0.9.2 (Thu Mar 20$
| > > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: request_module: failed /sbin/modprobe --
| > > snd-card-0. error = -16
| > > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 10 for device 02:0b.0 Apr
| > > 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 10 with 00:1f.2
| > > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel: ALSA device list:
| > > Apr 15 22:17:45 hobbiton kernel:   #0: Sound Blaster Live! (rev.7) at
| > > 0xdf80, irq 10
| > >
| > > I've been ignoring modprobe errors because I know there are some issues
| > > with 2.5 kernel and modules, and I'm compiling everything into the
| > > kernel.  Could this be causing a problem, though?
| >
| > I don't think you need to be ignoring module problems now.
| >
| > Do you have emu10k1 built as loadable module or in-kernel?
| >
| > -16 error is saying that the IO region or the IRQ is busy so the
| > driver can't allocate it.
| >
| > Is /sbin/modprobe a current version (for 2.5.50++ and recent)?
| >
| > ~Randy
| 
| It's compiled into the kernel.  I'm not sure why I would be getting modprobe 
| errors, everything is compiled in.  I have module-init-tools 0.9.11a, which 
| is the right modprobe for 2.5.46 and up, right?

That sounds right for tools.
But if emu10k1 is built into the kernel, you don't need to modprobe it at all.
Why is that happening?  Do you actually have emu10k1 module also?
It should have errors when loading if the device is already claimed.


--
~Randy

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Paolo Ciarrocchi]

I have a similar problem,
see http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=395


Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver Version 0.9.0rc7 (Sat Feb 15 15:01:21 
2003 UTC).
request_module: failed /sbin/modprobe -- snd-card-0. error = -16
no UART detected at 0xffff
Motu MidiTimePiece on parallel port irq: 7 ioport: 0x378
ALSA sound/drivers/mpu401/mpu401.c:76: specify port
PCI: Found IRQ 5 for device 00:0d.0
ALSA device list:
  #0: Dummy 1
  #1: Virtual MIDI Card 1
  #2: 
  #3: ESS Maestro3 PCI at 0x1800, irq 5

Ciao,
       Paolo

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Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Alistair Strachan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2430 bytes --]

On Wednesday 16 April 2003 05:29, you wrote:
>
> OK, I was using ALSA, but I tried OSS instead.  I don't get the popping
> sounds anymore, but I don't get any sound at all.
>

Add an entry to the kernel bugzilla detailing the ALSA trouble. See Robert's 
post about checking logs and dmesg for errors.

> udo:~$ dmesg | grep EMU10K
> Creative EMU10K1 PCI Audio Driver, version 0.20, 20:58:14 Apr 15 2003
> emu10k1: EMU10K1 rev 7 model 0x8061 found, IO at 0xdf80-0xdf9f, IRQ 10
>
> Maybe this is not a kernel problem now, although 2.4.20 worked without any
> other configuration.  I'm running KDE, and I don't have emu-tools, but
> maybe I can poke around and see if I can find the problem.

I'm surprised by this, because Rui recently updated the 2.5 emu10k1 sources to 
match the 2.4.20 sources. There are very few difference (2.4.20 used in 
both). Make sure you don't have anything "alsa" compiled in anyway (is that 
even possible?).

I, myself, would like to use ALSA with my emu10k1, but presently the software 
tone controls have the most awful artifacts you can imagine (and are 
substantially inferior to the tone control dsp from the emu-tools package..) 
and the rear-speaker routings in ALSA do not scale with the master PCM slider 
(which only changes the front speakers). I used to have this problem in OSS, 
too, and it was due to routing problems, but I cannot see any emu10k1 
specific routing utilities in alsa-utils or alsa-tools (?) that do this. Nor 
should I have to, optimal settings should be the default, as is with the OSS 
driver.

Are these problems being worked on, or are these bugs I should report? At the 
present time, the ALSA driver is not a technically suitable for the ageing 
OSS driver. And it hasn't been since the original emu10k1 driver back in the 
pre-0.9.x days, so I find it difficult to believe there's a quick fix.

The emu-tools may be required to enable some of the routing in the new driver, 
I'm not sure. What I've done is install the emu tools, (edit the Makefile to 
install to /usr not /usr/local) move "emu-script" to /usr/bin (/etc is silly) 
and used the attached emu10k1.conf.

For managing the volume, I use umix from sourceforge.net (but anything similar 
e.g. aumix should suffice) and I've included a working volume profile from 
umix (I also had to hack the emu-script to use umix and not aumix; it's not 
very well designed).

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Alistair.

[-- Attachment #2: umixrc --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 374 bytes --]

# Umix config file
[global]
device=/dev/sound/mixer
config=/etc/umixrc
plugindir=/usr/lib/umix
ui=ncurses
driver=OSS

[mixers]
# Creative SBLive - Emu10k1, OSS
mixer=/dev/sound/mixer
{
	vol 86:86  
	bass 100:100  
	treble 91:91  
	pcm 64:64  
	speaker 0:0  
	line 32:32 R
	mic 0:0 P
	cd 0:0 P
	igain 1:1 P
	ogain 68:68  
	line1 0:0 P
	phin 0:0 P
	phout 0:0  
	video 0:0 P
}

[-- Attachment #3: emu10k1.conf --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 2057 bytes --]

##
## This file is used to configure emu10k1's emu-script
##

CARD_IS_5_1=no
USE_DIGITAL_OUTPUT=no
ENABLE_TONE_CONTROL=yes

# Note, it's safe to say yes to the next option even if you're not going
# to use it. When this option is enabled, the driver can autodetects AC3
# data and behaves normally with normal audio.
# (Saying yes causes some of the soundcard's resourses to be used up)
AC3PASSTHROUGH=yes

# Change this to yes to enable the Livedrive midi port and IR remote 
# control.
ENABLE_LIVEDRIVE_IR=no

# Most Lives have their analog front signals inverted. If you have
# problems with your setup (low bass), try changing this to 'yes'. (This
# option has no effect with digital setups)
INVERT_REAR=no

#Multichannel playback (for 4 - 6 channel setups)
MULTICHANNEL=yes

# On 5.1 cards in multichannel mode, should the multichannel data be fed
# to the sub as well?  You probably don't want this if you have a
# speaker set like the DTT2200 which already feeds all channels to the
# sub in hardware.
ROUTE_ALL_TO_SUB=no

# By default, the front analog channels have a +12dB boost applied to
# them by the AC'97 mixer. If you encounter clipping, or find that the
# volume of the front speakers is too high in a multichannel setup, try
# changing this to 'no'.
ANALOG_FRONT_BOOST=no



# Surround
##################

# Some wavs, or mp3 are surround sound encoded the next two
# options can be used to decode these in hardware.
# (select on or the other, not both)

# passive matrix surround decoder 
SURROUND=no

# Active matrix surround decoder
PROLOGIC=no


# Extra Inputs 
#################

## This connector is mounted on the card itself
ENABLE_CD_Spdif=no  # Volume control is 'Digital1' in aumix/gmix/kmix

# The next four inputs are found on Livedrives, some of these may also
# be inputs on the older add-on daughter cards.

ENABLE_OPTICAL_SPDIF=no # Volume control is 'Digital2'
ENABLE_LINE2_MIC2=no    # Volume control is 'Line2'
ENABLE_RCA_SPDIF=no     # Volume control is 'Digital3'
ENABLE_RCA_AUX=no       # Volume control is 'line3'


[-- Attachment #4: emu-script --]
[-- Type: application/x-shellscript, Size: 6803 bytes --]

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Udo Hoerhold]

On Tuesday 15 April 2003 08:40 pm, Alistair Strachan wrote:
> Udo Hoerhold wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've been running Debian woody with 2.4.20 kernel.  I'm trying to switch
> > to
> > 2.5.  I built 2.5.67 with emu10k driver in the kernel (same as I had with
> > 2.4.20), but I get only a lot of popping sounds from the sound card.  I
> > also
> > tried 2.5.50 and 2.5.67-mm3, with the same result.  I googled for emu10k
> > and soundblaster with 2.5, but I haven't seen anyone else with the same
> > problem. Does anyone know what this problem is?
>
> Are you using the OSS or ALSA driver?
>
> [alistair] 01:38am [~] dmesg | egrep -e EMU10K1
> Creative EMU10K1 PCI Audio Driver, version 0.20, 15:35:08 Apr 14 2003
> emu10k1: EMU10K1 rev 7 model 0x8026 found, IO at 0xe400-0xe41f, IRQ 12
>
> The soundcard is working perfectly with the OSS driver, for me, in
> 2.5.67-mm1. I'm running the latest version of the emu-tools. Please try
> matching this configuration.
>
> Cheers,
> Alistair.
>

OK, I was using ALSA, but I tried OSS instead.  I don't get the popping sounds 
anymore, but I don't get any sound at all.

udo:~$ dmesg | grep EMU10K
Creative EMU10K1 PCI Audio Driver, version 0.20, 20:58:14 Apr 15 2003
emu10k1: EMU10K1 rev 7 model 0x8061 found, IO at 0xdf80-0xdf9f, IRQ 10

Maybe this is not a kernel problem now, although 2.4.20 worked without any 
other configuration.  I'm running KDE, and I don't have emu-tools, but maybe 
I can poke around and see if I can find the problem.

Thanks,

Udo

Re: SoundBlaster Live! with kernel 2.5.x

[Alistair Strachan]

Udo Hoerhold wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I've been running Debian woody with 2.4.20 kernel.  I'm trying to switch
> to
> 2.5.  I built 2.5.67 with emu10k driver in the kernel (same as I had with
> 2.4.20), but I get only a lot of popping sounds from the sound card.  I
> also
> tried 2.5.50 and 2.5.67-mm3, with the same result.  I googled for emu10k
> and soundblaster with 2.5, but I haven't seen anyone else with the same
> problem. Does anyone know what this problem is?

Are you using the OSS or ALSA driver?

[alistair] 01:38am [~] dmesg | egrep -e EMU10K1
Creative EMU10K1 PCI Audio Driver, version 0.20, 15:35:08 Apr 14 2003
emu10k1: EMU10K1 rev 7 model 0x8026 found, IO at 0xe400-0xe41f, IRQ 12

The soundcard is working perfectly with the OSS driver, for me, in 2.5.67-mm1. 
I'm running the latest version of the emu-tools. Please try matching this 
configuration.

Cheers,
Alistair.