Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Alan Cox]

On Mer, 2003-05-14 at 14:52, Dean McEwan wrote:
> It would be set up so that files have an internal signature (ELF format might have to be
> fiddled with). It would verify itself by sending info to the creator of the contents PC OR server
> asking for verification of itself, files could be limited lease, rented, or automatically expire 
> after some time.

That way around doesnt actually work because I'll simply lie, fake the server or firewall you
(in fact any serious business firewalls all outgoing traffic from end users). If you want
to do it for internal trust and you control the systems (the useful case) you set SELinux
or RSBAC up so that all applications create files in a "non runnable" class. The only way
to transition an app is a single user application which does your key checking and other
processing then transitions the binary to "safe". I guess you also add a general rule that
writing to a file moves it back into non runnable.

One of the problems with this is interpreters. Its easy to do this with ELF binaries but
you have to extend it to scripts and that normally means more pain 8)

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Dean McEwan]

Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> said :
> You can set this up with both rsbac and selinux
> 
Im thinking of much more...
It would be set up so that files have an internal signature (ELF format might have to be
fiddled with). It would verify itself by sending info to the creator of the contents PC OR server
asking for verification of itself, files could be limited lease, rented, or automatically expire 
after some time.

NB
===
I get the whole Palladium thing and no I don't wan't one central server e.t.c. so the GOV.T
and M$ can control everything, it would be a opt out affair, and it definately would NOT
work with the FRITZ chip. Decentralised, giving authors control over their work(s.), except
where license forbids this.

E.G. a kernel could refuse to work after one year forcing its users to upgrade their kernel, preventing exploits being left in place, and creators of the prefab kernels in
a sticky liable mess.


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Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Wed, 14 May 2003, Dean McEwan wrote:

> Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> said :
> > You can set this up with both rsbac and selinux
> >
> Im thinking of much more...


[SNIPPED...]

>
> E.G. a kernel could refuse to work after one year forcing its users
> to upgrade their kernel, preventing exploits being left in place,
> and  creators of the prefab kernels in
> a sticky liable mess.

The worst problem with expiring software is that a
company, operating in good faith, can be forced out
of business because if it.

Lets say that I have a company called BestInTheWorld.
Because I make the best data-base software in the world,
a lot of companies purchase a license to use this
software. The software expires in a year. This is no
problem because The software renewal is cheap. Soon
every company in Silicon Valley uses my software.
The company is going strong and needs to expand. It
issues public stock.

Al Qaeda purchases controlling interest in the company
and closes it. In one year, everybody in Silicon Valley
is out of work because all the company's software
stopped working.

Bad joke? Hell no. Digital thought about short-term
leasing of their software when they introduced LMF,
the license management facility. Once Digtal's lawyers
got involved, a patch was sent to everbody making damn
sure that the "expiration" capability was removed.
Nevertheless, FTP Software, that made TCP/IP to DECNET
sofware, continued to have software that expired.

Basically, in many states in the USA, you can't sell or
lease something that will become worthless or unusable if
the seller or leasor no longer exists. If the renter makes
a good-faith effort to pay the rent, the renter continues
to enjoy use of the leased property. Creating property that
doesn't allow this violates common law.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.20 on an i686 machine (797.90 BogoMips).
Why is the government concerned about the lunatic fringe? Think about it.

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Larry McVoy]

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 10:36:43AM -0400, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> Basically, in many states in the USA, you can't sell or
> lease something that will become worthless or unusable if
> the seller or leasor no longer exists. 

CAD software is mostly leased these days.  That would seem to contradict
your position.  Can you quote some laws which say that leasing software
is illegal?
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Tomas Szepe]

> [dean_mcewan@linuxmail.org]
> 
> E.G. a kernel could refuse to work after one year forcing its users to
> upgrade their kernel, preventing exploits being left in place, and
> creators of the prefab kernels in a sticky liable mess.

Well, I reckon people who have an irresistible temptation to fish
out their C64 to play Bubble Bobble[1] every time somebody comes
to visit would have a pretty distinct opinion on this "feature."

-- 
Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com>

[1] http://www.bubandbob.com/

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Wed, 14 May 2003, Larry McVoy wrote:

> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 10:36:43AM -0400, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> > Basically, in many states in the USA, you can't sell or
> > lease something that will become worthless or unusable if
> > the seller or leasor no longer exists.
>
> CAD software is mostly leased these days.  That would seem to contradict
> your position.  Can you quote some laws which say that leasing software
> is illegal?

What did I say? I never implied that leasing software was illegal.
What I said was that software that expires after a certain time
has certain problems, the most basic of which is that a renter
who makes a good-faith effort to pay the rent, must be able to
retain ("enjoy") the use of the rented property. If software
expires and there is no leasor available for the renter to
make a good-faith effort to pay, the property must remain
usable until this problem is solved. If software is not capable
of remaining useful even after a leasor is no longer available
then the software cannot be leased (although it probably can be
sold because you can sell anything, including lemon cars as long
as the condition of the property is not hidden).

Furthermore, companies that sell public stock need to protect
the interest of their stockholders. If the viability of one
company is dependent upon the continuance of another company,
then, as they say in Houston; "We have a problem".

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.20 on an i686 machine (797.90 BogoMips).
Why is the government concerned about the lunatic fringe? Think about it.

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting,

[Giuliano Pochini]

On 14-May-2003 Dean McEwan wrote:
> E.G. a kernel could refuse to work after one year forcing its users to upgrade their
> kernel, preventing exploits being left in place, and creators of the prefab kernels
> in a sticky liable mess.

No, my computer must do what I want. Forced upgrades are a disgusting
marketing practice.


Bye.

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting,

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

"Richard B. Johnson" <root@chaos.analogic.com> writes:

>Al Qaeda purchases controlling interest in the company

Uh Uh, the all-american bogeyman approaching. Film at eleven.


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen          INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de        +49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/

Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services 
freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development  -- hero for hire

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Larry McVoy]

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 11:22:57AM -0400, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> What did I say? I never implied that leasing software was illegal.
> What I said was that software that expires after a certain time
> has certain problems, the most basic of which is that a renter
> who makes a good-faith effort to pay the rent, must be able to
> retain ("enjoy") the use of the rented property. 

It's not property that you are renting, it is a right-to-use.  
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Dean McEwan]

If you look at M$'s licences notice how it says you own a lease.

> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 11:22:57AM -0400, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> > What did I say? I never implied that leasing software was illegal.
> > What I said was that software that expires after a certain time
> > has certain problems, the most basic of which is that a renter
> > who makes a good-faith effort to pay the rent, must be able to
> > retain ("enjoy") the use of the rented property. 
> 
> It's not property that you are renting, it is a right-to-use.  
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

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Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

[Dean McEwan]

> The worst problem with expiring software is that a
> company, operating in good faith, can be forced out
> of business because if it.

  You shouldn't buy software from crappy "on_last_legs" 
companies.

> Lets say that I have a company called BestInTheWorld.
> Because I make the best data-base software in the world,
> a lot of companies purchase a license to use this
> software. The software expires in a year. This is no
> problem because The software renewal is cheap. Soon
> every company in Silicon Valley uses my software.
> The company is going strong and needs to expand. It
> issues public stock.
> 
> Al Qaeda

Lets stop there eh? AL <self snipped>QAEDA ? ANY GOV.T 
would let them buy stock? Controlling Stock ???

 purchases controlling interest in the company
> and closes it. In one year, everybody in Silicon Valley
> is out of work because all the company's software
> stopped working.

Say M$ bought company that has "we can change this license 
at any time
for this version of software" written in its license, M$ 
changes it and BOOM! Software now costs another $400,000
to use... 

My DRM would not allow this... Good Eh?

Also GPL sources wouldn't work in proprietary work(s).
 
> 
> Bad joke? Hell no. Digital thought about short-term
> leasing of their software when they introduced LMF,
> the license management facility. Once Digtal's lawyers
> got involved, a patch was sent to everbody making damn
> sure that the "expiration" capability was removed.
> Nevertheless, FTP Software, that made TCP/IP to DECNET
> sofware, continued to have software that expired.
> 
> Basically, in many states in the USA, you can't sell or
> lease something that will become worthless or unusable if
> the seller or leasor no longer exists. If the renter makes
> a good-faith effort to pay the rent, the renter continues
> to enjoy use of the leased property. Creating property that
> doesn't allow this violates common law.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dick Johnson
> Penguin : Linux version 2.4.20 on an i686 machine (797.90 BogoMips).
> Why is the government concerned about the lunatic fringe? Think about it.
> 

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