Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Dean McEwan]

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Date: 14 May 2003 14:49:03 +0100 
To: Dean McEwan <dean_mcewan@linuxmail.org>
Subject: Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HARWARE BASED.

> On Mer, 2003-05-14 at 14:52, Dean McEwan wrote:
> > It would be set up so that files have an internal signature (ELF format might have to be
> > fiddled with). It would verify itself by sending info to the creator of the contents PC OR server
> > asking for verification of itself, files could be limited lease, rented, or automatically expire 
> > after some time.
> 
> That way around doesnt actually work because I'll simply lie, fake the server or firewall you

Encrypted binary, in a XML wrapper that needs decryption key from owners site.
Uses port 80...
> (in fact any serious business firewalls all outgoing traffic from end users). If you want
> to do it for internal trust and you control the systems (the useful case) you set SELinux
> or RSBAC up so that all applications create files in a "non runnable" class. The only way
> to transition an app is a single user application which does your key checking and other
> processing then transitions the binary to "safe". I guess you also add a general rule that
> writing to a file moves it back into non runnable.
> 
> One of the problems with this is interpreters. Its easy to do this with ELF binaries but
> you have to extend it to scripts and that normally means more pain 8)
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[viro]

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 03:22:46PM +0000, Dean McEwan wrote:
> > That way around doesnt actually work because I'll simply lie, fake the server or firewall you
> 
> Encrypted binary, in a XML wrapper that needs decryption key from owners site.
> Uses port 80...

... and is declared a firing offense.  BTW, the privacy issues (and related
information leak/blackmail potential) are mind-boggling - it's not just
"some guy bought $material", it's "this guy had accessed $material at
$list_of_times".

And that's besides being unable to use the FPOS in question on a laptop,
going tits-up whenever a backhoe finds your cable, doing the same when
vendor's boxen get screwed, yadda, yadda.

Crap idea.

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Tomas Szepe]

> [viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk]
> 
> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 03:22:46PM +0000, Dean McEwan wrote:
> > > That way around doesnt actually work because I'll simply lie, fake the server or firewall you
> > 
> > Encrypted binary, in a XML wrapper that needs decryption key from owners site.
> > Uses port 80...
> 
> ... and is declared a firing offense.  BTW, the privacy issues (and related
> information leak/blackmail potential) are mind-boggling - it's not just
> "some guy bought $material", it's "this guy had accessed $material at
> $list_of_times".
> 
> And that's besides being unable to use the FPOS in question on a laptop,
> going tits-up whenever a backhoe finds your cable, doing the same when
> vendor's boxen get screwed, yadda, yadda.
> 
> Crap idea.

Totally.

Two more problems:

1)  In this case the decryption key is an intergral part of the software
and as such needs to be supplied as per fair use clauses.

2)  Alan's argument stands.  It is possible to fake the server and provide
the key once the user have pinched a working copy.  The wrapper can be
reverse-engineered for communication key magics if need be.

-- 
Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com>

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 677 bytes --]

On Wed, 14 May 2003 15:22:46 -0000, Dean McEwan said:

> Encrypted binary, in a XML wrapper that needs decryption key from owners site
.
> Uses port 80...

"A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer that you've
never heard of can render your system inoperable" -- Leslie Lamport

You *do* realize that the last company that tried to sell us this sort of
scheme is now possibly looking at $2.2 *trillion* in fines because they dorked
it up so badly?

This assuming that your corporate security officers allow the traffic through
the firewall.

As Randy Bush likes to say on the NANOG list: "I encourage my competitors
to design their networks this way"....

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Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Jakob Oestergaard]

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 10:44:58AM +0000, Dean McEwan wrote:
> Actually the program is dynamically encrypted with a new key each time.

Yeah, whatever

> Intefering with memory buffers causes the kernel to delete the
> program, Key is sent over VPN, tampering with the kernel causes the
> MD5 hash to be incorrect,

Who sends the now-incorrect MD5?  The kernel? But since it's been
tampered with, how do you know it sends the trust now-incorrect MD5 sum,
instead of a copy of the original MD5 sum?

> and key isn't sent, DRM self scans itself,

What for?

If DRM is tampered with, making it scan itself is pretty useless - once
it has been tampered with, it can no longer be trusted to perform the
self scan.   In other words, such self-scanning is fundamentally flawed.

Read "The inevitability of failure" - pay special attention to the fact
that they *never* recommend anything like self-scanning, but rather
focus on mechanisms to ensure that whatever it was you wanted to
self-scan could never have been tampered with in the first place (thus
making the self-scanning that can't work anyway, a non-issue).

  http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/inevit-abs.html

> MD5 hash sums are made on the sources and DRM will dynamically
> recompile itself every 32 seconds, checking the sources.

... using which compiler ?

... compiled using which compiler ?

Nevermind that - you don't need to answer.

Read "Reflections on trusting trust" by Ken R.

   http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html


Your idea is fundamentally flawed. You can always add more layers of
self-checking-self-checkers, but this does not change the fact that the
idea is fundamentally flawed.

I'm sorry - it's not that I don't like you or anything like that - but
the idea is stupid, just give it up   :)

-- 
................................................................
:   jakob@unthought.net   : And I see the elder races,         :
:.........................: putrid forms of man                :
:   Jakob Østergaard      : See him rise and claim the earth,  :
:        OZ9ABN           : his downfall is at hand.           :
:.........................:............{Konkhra}...............:

Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Dean McEwan]

> On Wed, 14 May 2003 15:22:46 -0000, Dean McEwan said:
> 
> > Encrypted binary, in a XML wrapper that needs decryption key from owners site
> .
> > Uses port 80...
> 
> "A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer that you've
> never heard of can render your system inoperable" -- Leslie Lamport
> 
> You *do* realize that the last company that tried to sell us this sort of
> scheme is now possibly looking at $2.2 *trillion* in fines because they dorked
> it up so badly?

 Actually what is that company?

> This assuming that your corporate security officers allow the traffic through
> the firewall.

it'll be altered to work with the firewall. Or rather the other way.

> 
> As Randy Bush likes to say on the NANOG list: "I encourage my competitors
> to design their networks this way"....

Yes, that is the one and only failure of the system.
I can suggest that the author be able to give the work(s)
an extension if the network is unreachable, at renewal time.
theres always the posibility of using closed source modules
instead which could allow network problems temporary reprisal
but I don't like it.

Now I know I was branded a troll earlier for saying that
Larry used mild DRM, but I thought it monitored and gave samples
of code to make sure closed source things wern't made with the 
free version, and it monitored push, pull activity, Which is why
I wonder if Larry has any Ideas, but I never made to insinuate he
was "evil". Especially as I like the BK/CVS gatway.

=-=-=-=-=
DEANO.
Arg, theres always someone who wants to bathe in his own
self importance, and brand other people trolls (LETS NOT START A 
CONVERSATION OVER THAT THOUGH).

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RE: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Dean McEwan]

>  > ...and DRM will dynamically recompile itself every 32 seconds...
> 
> ...and thus will spend so much time recompiling itself that there
> is no time to do anything else (since it will inevitably take 33
> seconds to actually perform the compilation).

True, I take this on board, perhaps my devel team can look at an alternative
e.g. a couple of verifying modules.

> Personally, I see DRM as the best thing Microsoft could take under
> their wings, as it's an almost sure-fire bet that any company that
> whole-heartedly embraces it will soon go bust...

I embrace it because like war in Iraq, its gonna happen anyway...
Without a alternative, the government will have to accept
monopoly.

Because they certainly "ain't no good at suing 'em".
Im not intending on using DRM to spread proprietary
works, im gonna use it to protect my confidential documents
and my GPL source. 

DRM is a good idea, used only by a bad idea of company.

Nuclear power is good but under bad hands... 

> Best wishes from Riley.
> ---
>  * Nothing as pretty as a smile, nothing as ugly as a frown.
---
Dean.

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RE: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Riley Williams]

Hi Dean.

 > ...and DRM will dynamically recompile itself every 32 seconds...

...and thus will spend so much time recompiling itself that there
is no time to do anything else (since it will inevitably take 33
seconds to actually perform the compilation).

Personally, I see DRM as the best thing Microsoft could take under
their wings, as it's an almost sure-fire bet that any company that
whole-heartedly embraces it will soon go bust...

Best wishes from Riley.
---
 * Nothing as pretty as a smile, nothing as ugly as a frown.

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Re: Digital Rights Management - An idea (limited lease, renting, expiration, verification) NON HAR*D*WARE BASED.

[Dean McEwan]

Actually the program is dynamically encrypted with a new key each time.
Intefering with memory buffers causes the kernel to delete the program, Key is sent over VPN, tampering with the kernel causes
the MD5 hash to be incorrect, and key isn't sent, DRM self scans itself, MD5 hash sums are made on the sources and DRM will
dynamically recompile itself every 32 seconds, checking the sources.
USER key is dynamic, with a different key for every program,
using email to verify said key.
*GASP* for breath :) 
May I note this can make sure GPL is followed as well as proprietary rules...

> > [viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk]said:
> Two more problems:
> 
> 1)  In this case the decryption key is an intergral part of the software
> and as such needs to be supplied as per fair use clauses.
> 
> 2)  Alan's argument stands.  It is possible to fake the server and provide
> the key once the user have pinched a working copy.  The wrapper can be
> reverse-engineered for communication key magics if need be.
> 
> -- 
> Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com>

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