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From: Matt Mackall <mpm@selenic.com>
To: James Morris <jmorris@intercode.com.au>
Cc: Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
	davem@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH] Make cryptoapi non-optional?
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:45:28 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20030810174528.GZ31810@waste.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.LNX.4.44.0308102317470.7218-100000@excalibur.intercode.com.au>

On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 11:18:43PM +1000, James Morris wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, Matt Mackall wrote:
> 
> > out. Another thing I failed to mention at 3am is that most of the
> > speed increase actually comes from the following patch which wasn't in
> > baseline and isn't cryptoapi-specific. So I expect the cryptoapi
> > version is about 30% faster once you amortize the initialization
> > stuff.
> > 
> > >>>>
> > Remove folding step and double throughput.
> 
> Why did you remove this?

I suppose the comment you deleted was a little light on details, sigh.

The idea with the folding was that we can cover up any systemic
patterns in the returned hash by xoring the first half of the hash
with the second half of the hash. While this might seem like a good
technique intuitively, it's mathematically flawed.

Let's assume the simplest case of a two bit hash xy. "Patterns" here
are going to translate into a correlation between otherwise
well-distributed x and y. A perfectly uncorrelated system xy is going
to have two bits of entropy. A perfectly correlated (or
anti-correlated) system xy is going to have only 1 bit of entropy.

Now what happens when we fold these two bits together z=x^y? In the
uncorrelated case we end up with a well-distributed z. In the
correlated case, we end up with 0 or 1, that is z=x^x=0 or z=x^-x, and
we've eliminated any entropy we once had. If correlation is less than
100%, then we get somewhere between 0 and 1 bits of entropy, but
always less than if we just returned z=x or z=y. This argument
naturally scales up to larger variables x and y.

Ok, so that explains taking out the xor. But I also return xy and not
just x. With the former, every bit of input goes through SHA1 twice,
once in the input pool, and once in the output pool, along with lots
of feedback to foil backtracking attacks. In the latter, every output
bit is going through SHA four times, which is just overkill. If we
don't trust our hash to generate uniform, non-self-correlating output,
running additional rounds does not guarantee that we aren't magnifying
the problem. And it is of course making everything twice as expensive.

-- 
Matt Mackall : http://www.selenic.com : of or relating to the moon

  reply	other threads:[~2003-08-10 17:45 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 120+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-08-09  7:44 [RFC][PATCH] Make cryptoapi non-optional? Matt Mackall
2003-08-09  8:04 ` David S. Miller
2003-08-09 14:05   ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-09 17:39     ` David S. Miller
2003-08-09 19:46       ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-09 20:17         ` David S. Miller
2003-08-10  8:15           ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-10  8:32             ` virt_to_offset() (Re: [RFC][PATCH] Make cryptoapi non-optional?) YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10  8:30               ` David S. Miller
2003-08-10  9:02                 ` virt_to_offset() YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-11 18:21                   ` virt_to_offset() David Mosberger
2003-08-12  2:46                     ` virt_to_offset() David S. Miller
2003-08-10  9:05                 ` virt_to_offset() (Re: [RFC][PATCH] Make cryptoapi non-optional?) Matt Mackall
2003-08-10  9:04                   ` David S. Miller
2003-08-10 11:00                     ` [PATCH 1/9] introduce virt_to_pagoff() YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:00                     ` [PATCH 2/9] convert crypto to virt_to_pageoff() YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:05                     ` [PATCH 3/9] convert net " YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:07                     ` [PATCH 4/9] convert drivers/block " YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:09                     ` [PATCH 5/9] convert drivers/ide " YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:10                     ` [PATCH 6/9] convert drivers/net " YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:10                     ` [PATCH 7/9] convert drivers/scsi " YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:31                       ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-08-10 11:51                         ` David S. Miller
2003-08-10 12:03                           ` YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 14:54                             ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-08-10 14:51                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-08-10 13:54                         ` Russell King
2003-08-10 13:55                         ` Russell King
2003-08-10 14:55                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-08-11  5:21                           ` David S. Miller
2003-08-10 11:10                     ` [PATCH 8/9] convert drivers/usb " YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-10 11:10                     ` [PATCH 9/9] convert fs/jbd " YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / 吉藤英明
2003-08-11  2:15             ` [RFC][PATCH] Make cryptoapi non-optional? Jamie Lokier
2003-08-11  2:38               ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-11  4:54               ` David S. Miller
2003-08-11  5:17                 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-13  5:01                 ` [Numbers][PATCH] " Matt Mackall
2003-08-10 14:46           ` [RFC][PATCH] " James Morris
2003-08-09 14:33 ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-09 17:13   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-09 17:33     ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-10 13:18       ` James Morris
2003-08-10 17:45         ` Matt Mackall [this message]
2003-08-11  2:09           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-11  2:35             ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-11  4:59               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-11  5:04                 ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-11  5:20                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-11  5:54                     ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-11  6:24                       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-11  4:58             ` David Wagner
2003-08-11  5:36               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-11 19:21                 ` David Wagner
2003-08-13 19:37                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-13  3:52             ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-08-13 15:44               ` i810_rng.o on various Dell models Jim Carter
2003-08-13 16:15                 ` Jeff Garzik
2003-08-13 18:43                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-13 18:36               ` [RFC][PATCH] Make cryptoapi non-optional? Jamie Lokier
2003-08-15  0:16                 ` Network Card Entropy? was: " Mike Fedyk
2003-08-15  0:22                   ` Robert Love
2003-08-13  3:20           ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-08-13  4:06             ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-14 16:53               ` Val Henson
2003-08-14 19:40                 ` David Wagner
2003-08-14 20:07                   ` Chris Friesen
2003-08-14 21:36                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-15  0:25                     ` Val Henson
2003-08-15 11:47                       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-15  0:17                   ` Val Henson
2003-08-15  1:45                     ` David Wagner
2003-08-15  2:21                       ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-15  7:30                     ` Andries Brouwer
2003-08-15  7:40                       ` David S. Miller
2003-08-15  7:55                         ` Andries Brouwer
2003-08-15  8:06                           ` Måns Rullgård
2003-08-15  8:11                             ` Nick Piggin
2003-08-15 15:11                             ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-15 22:16                               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-15 20:22                           ` Val Henson
2003-08-16  6:27                             ` David Wagner
2003-08-18  4:25                               ` Val Henson
2003-08-15  8:09                         ` Nick Piggin
2003-08-15 15:03                       ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-15 17:04                         ` Andries Brouwer
2003-08-15 22:05                           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-15 22:02                         ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-15 12:48                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-15 22:34                     ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-08-15 22:12               ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-08-15 23:35                 ` James Morris
2003-08-16 15:51                   ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-17 14:37                     ` James Morris
2003-08-17 15:30                       ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-15 23:55                 ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-16  0:05                   ` Andrew Morton
2003-08-16  0:58                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-16  4:57                       ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-16  4:38                     ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-16  5:03                       ` Andrew Morton
2003-08-16  5:39                         ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-18  6:43                       ` Andreas Dilger
2003-08-18  6:55                         ` David Lang
2003-08-18 11:59                           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-18 12:11                             ` Måns Rullgård
2003-08-18 13:33                               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-18 17:03                             ` David Lang
2003-08-18 17:51                               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-22  4:28                           ` David Wagner
2003-08-25  4:29                             ` Jamie Lokier
2003-08-18 15:20                         ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-18  3:23                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-08-18 15:46                     ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-10  2:07   ` Robert Love
2003-08-10  3:14     ` Matt Mackall
2003-08-10  3:49       ` David S. Miller
2003-08-10  4:01         ` Robert Love
2003-08-10  4:07           ` Robert Love
2003-08-16 20:40 Adam J. Richter
2003-08-17  4:28 ` Matt Mackall

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