GPL question

GPL question

[ca_tex-kernel]

Hopefully this is not going to start a huge thread war on open source
philosophy and such, but the company I work for has some proprietary code built
as a 2.4 linux kernel module for a product they sell.  They are concerned about
releasing the source code.  I noticed that what this code does and how it does
it seems pretty clean (at least GPL-wise), but it does modify sys_call_table to
add a system call which is then used to call the module from userland.  Can
they avoid releasing this code or is this crossing into a gray area?  I used to
think I more or less understood the basics of the GPL, but after talking to
their lawyers I am totally confused.  Thanks.


=====
Jarrett L. Redd (K9HMV)

Re: GPL question

[David Weinehall]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 03:13:49PM -0700, ca_tex-kernel@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hopefully this is not going to start a huge thread war on open source
> philosophy and such, but the company I work for has some proprietary
> code built as a 2.4 linux kernel module for a product they sell.  They
> are concerned about releasing the source code.  I noticed that what
> this code does and how it does it seems pretty clean (at least
> GPL-wise), but it does modify sys_call_table to add a system call
> which is then used to call the module from userland.  Can they avoid
> releasing this code or is this crossing into a gray area?  I used to
> think I more or less understood the basics of the GPL, but after
> talking to their lawyers I am totally confused.  Thanks.

Philosophical issues aside (I suppose everyone on this list prefers to
see drivers free) the main point that decides if a driver has to be
released with source is whether it can be considered a derived work or
not.  to the best of my knowledge, the exception for binary modules in
the kernel was mainly to provide for drivers ported from other operating
systems, rather than to allow for competlely new drivers to be kept
closed source.  If the driver can be claimed to be developed without
having access to other things than header-files, it can probably be
considered non-derived, but a drivers that has to modify the
sys_call_table is dangerously close to being a derived work (if not
already past the border-line...)


Regards: David Weinehall
-- 
 /) David Weinehall <tao@acc.umu.se> /) Northern lights wander      (\
//  Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel   //  Dance across the winter sky //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/    (/   Full colour fire           (/

GPL Question

[Jason Wohlgemuth]

Consider this:

A subsystem that is statically built into the Linux Kernel is modified 
to allow the registration of a structure containing function pointers.

The function pointers corrolate to a set of functions within that subsystem.
If the new structure of pointers has been registered, the original 
functions will call the new functions in the structure passing all 
arguments and returning the return value of the new function.

With this said, if no structure has been registered, then no 
functionality is degraded within the kernel.  Only the loss of some cpu 
time to check the pointers at the top of the old functions.

Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have 
increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that 
modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module 
be released under the GPL?

Thanks in advance,
Jason Wohlgemuth

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Re: GPL Question

[David Weis]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Jason Wohlgemuth wrote:

> Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have 
> increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that 
> modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module 
> be released under the GPL?

It would probably follow GPL, but it's pretty slimy. I won't buy it.

david

-- 
David Weis                | "Great spirits will always encounter violent
djweis@sjdjweis.com       | opposition from mediocre minds" - Einstein
http://www.sjdjweis.com/  |

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Re: GPL Question

[Alan Cox]

> On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Jason Wohlgemuth wrote:
> 
> > Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have 
> > increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that 
> > modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module 
> > be released under the GPL?
> 
> It would probably follow GPL, but it's pretty slimy. I won't buy it.

It depends primarily if the module depends on the code which is GPL. Its all
a rather unclear area. 

Alan

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Re: GPL Question

[Matthew Dharm]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1791 bytes --]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 06:21:27PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Jason Wohlgemuth wrote:
> > 
> > > Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have 
> > > increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that 
> > > modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module 
> > > be released under the GPL?
> > 
> > It would probably follow GPL, but it's pretty slimy. I won't buy it.
> 
> It depends primarily if the module depends on the code which is GPL. Its all
> a rather unclear area. 

Legally, I think this is probably unclear.  But, I have my own, personal
standard I use for this.

The question in my mind is one of "can it stand alone".  In the example
originally mentioned, the new module (let's call it the alpha module)
registers function calls with the old module (let's call it beta).

Now, the question in my mind is this:  Is alpha a replacement for beta? It
certainly sounds like it.  But it depends of what/how many functions are
being overridden.  Are there other functions from beta which are used by
alpha (either as above alpha or below it)?  What are these replacement
functions trying to do?  If you're using an allready existing abstraction
layer, then you're probably okay... but if you're really inventing a new
abstraction layer, then you're probably not okay.

I guess what I'm saying is this: It all comes down to intent for me.  Yeah,
that's a lousy standard to use, especially in a courtroom.  But that's what
I really care about in the end.

Matt

-- 
Matthew Dharm                              Home: mdharm-usb@one-eyed-alien.net 
Maintainer, Linux USB Mass Storage Driver

We can customize our colonels.
					-- Tux
User Friendly, 12/1/1998

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Re: GPL Question

[Mark Salisbury]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Jason Wohlgemuth wrote:
> Consider this:
> 
> A subsystem that is statically built into the Linux Kernel is modified 
> to allow the registration of a structure containing function pointers.
> 
> The function pointers corrolate to a set of functions within that subsystem.
> If the new structure of pointers has been registered, the original 
> functions will call the new functions in the structure passing all 
> arguments and returning the return value of the new function.
> 
> With this said, if no structure has been registered, then no 
> functionality is degraded within the kernel.  Only the loss of some cpu 
> time to check the pointers at the top of the old functions.
> 
> Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have 
> increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that 
> modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module 
> be released under the GPL?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Jason Wohlgemuth


the api of the module would be a reimplementation of a GPL'd api
(the function names may have changed, but the base behaviors must be equivalent)

so the question in simple terms might phrased as:

is the API under GPL, or is it the code or are both?

I think the answer is both.
-- 
/*------------------------------------------------**
**   Mark Salisbury | Mercury Computer Systems    **
**   mbs@mc.com     |                             **
**------------------------------------------------**
**  "WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve"  **
**------------------------------------------------*/


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Re: GPL Question

[Alan Cox]

> Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have 
> increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that 
> modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module 
> be released under the GPL?

Consult a Copyright/'Intellectual Property' lawyer.  I wouldnt ask a lawyer
to write a kernel driver, I would suggest not asking kernel hackers to do law 8)

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RE: GPL Question

[David Schwartz]

> Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have
> increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that
> modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module
> be released under the GPL?

	If the answer to this is "yes", then Microsoft should own some rights to
every piece of software that uses the Windows API.

	DS

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RE: GPL Question

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, David Schwartz wrote:

> > Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have
> > increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that
> > modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module
> > be released under the GPL?
> 
>      If the answer to this is "yes", then Microsoft should own
> some rights to every piece of software that uses the Windows
> API.

Read the fine print...

*runs like crazy*

Rik
--
"What you're running that piece of shit Gnome?!?!"
       -- Miguel de Icaza, UKUUG 2000

http://www.conectiva.com/		http://www.surriel.com/

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Re: GPL Question

[Alan Cox]

> >      If the answer to this is "yes", then Microsoft should own
> > some rights to every piece of software that uses the Windows
> > API.
> 
> Read the fine print...
> *runs like crazy*

Extremely true. You'll find the MS C library covers this in detail. You'll also
famously find the microsoft sdk for generating paperclip like horrors actually
forbids you using it for the purpose of making things derogatory to MS etc

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RE: GPL Question

[James Sutherland]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, David Schwartz wrote:

> 
> > Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have
> > increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that
> > modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module
> > be released under the GPL?
> 
> 	If the answer to this is "yes", then Microsoft should own some rights to
> every piece of software that uses the Windows API.

In fact, since you call the Windows API by linking against Windows
libraries (kernel32.dll etc), Microsoft have as much right to dictate the
licensing of Windows apps as the FSF has to require apps linked against
GPLed code to be GPLed. (IMO, neither has any such right; of course, given
the spate of recent laws we've seen, I wouldn't put any faith in a legal
system to reach the "right" decision...)

In this particular case - just communicating with GPLed code - the answer
is no, you are not required to impose GPL restrictions on your users, you
can use a free license instead (or a proprietary one, if you really
want...)


James.

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Re: GPL Question

[Brian F. G. Bidulock]

All, IANAL, but:

    #1: take this discussion of this list...

    goto news:comp.software.licensing

    read the FAQ

    if you still have questions send them to mailto:licensing@gnu.org

    if you don't like any of those answers, talk to a lawyer

    be fair, don't steal someone else's work (don't be like Dennis)

    both GPL and LGPL are clear: you change it, you publish source

    if you don't want to publish source, best bet is don't change it,
        just use it the way it is

    you may not have the right to change anything (according to your
        employer): consult a lawyer

--Brian

On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, James Sutherland wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, David Schwartz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Now, if a module is loaded that registers a set of functions that have
> > > increased functionality compared to the original functions, if that
> > > modules is not based off GPL'd code, must the source code of that module
> > > be released under the GPL?
> > 
> > 	If the answer to this is "yes", then Microsoft should own some rights to
> > every piece of software that uses the Windows API.
> 
> In fact, since you call the Windows API by linking against Windows
> libraries (kernel32.dll etc), Microsoft have as much right to dictate the
> licensing of Windows apps as the FSF has to require apps linked against
> GPLed code to be GPLed. (IMO, neither has any such right; of course, given
> the spate of recent laws we've seen, I wouldn't put any faith in a legal
> system to reach the "right" decision...)
> 
> In this particular case - just communicating with GPLed code - the answer
> is no, you are not required to impose GPL restrictions on your users, you
> can use a free license instead (or a proprietary one, if you really
> want...)
> 
> 
> James.
> 
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> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
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-- 
Brian F. G. Bidulock
http://www.openss7.org/
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Re: GPL Question

[Alan Cox]

> 	If the answer to this is "yes", then Microsoft should own some rights to
> every piece of software that uses the Windows API.

As US copyright law stands of the last few days Microsoft are entitled to 
require a magic constant is passed in one register to 'unlock' an API syscall.
If you disassemble code to find that constant you could be jailed.

Alan

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Re: GPL Question

[Helge Hafting]

Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> >       If the answer to this is "yes", then Microsoft should own some rights to
> > every piece of software that uses the Windows API.
> 
> As US copyright law stands of the last few days Microsoft are entitled to
> require a magic constant is passed in one register to 'unlock' an API syscall.
> If you disassemble code to find that constant you could be jailed.

Anyone figuring out such a constant could post it anonymously on some
website/newsgroup.  Anybody abusing the constant later, including the
real discoverer, can simply claim they got it from that anonymous
sensation
posting.  It is now common knowledge.  No reverse engineering here...

Helge Hafting
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