Re: reiser4 vs politics: linux misses out again

[Horst von Brand <vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl>]

Ed Cogburn <edcogburn@hotpop.com> wrote:
> Jim Crilly wrote:
> > On 07/02/05 09:05:41AM -0400, Ed Cogburn wrote:
> >> Jim Crilly wrote:

> >> Assuming "fast and cool" here equates to some level of improvement to the
> >> existing kernel, and/or new features/capabilities not currently
> >> available, then are you saying "fast and cool" isn't good enough anymore,
> >> you now have to be politically correct and socially popular and a master
> >> brown-noser as well to get code into the kernel even just on an
> >> *experimental* basis?

> > Fast and cool by themselves shouldn't be good enough, infact fast could
> > definately be optional

> And please point out where anyone has said ANYWHERE that R4 is going to be
> FORCED on people!  Stop accusing Hans of refusing to answer relevent points
> when you're doing the same damn thing.

Even if I'm not forced to /use/ it, if it gets shoved into the kernel, it
is being forced on me. You are talking to /kernel developers/ here, who
care for the /code/; not /users/, who only care for whatever their
distribution dishes up (leaving out experimental/unstable/nonsensical
stuff).

> > Obviously you don't care about the code

> Bullshit.  If the code doesn't work

Check. Can't, due to basic design problems.

>                                      or is unstable

Check.

>                                                     or unmaintained

Has happened before with code from the same people. Can't even get them to
clean up for considering for inclusion. Check.

>                                                                     then
> everyone is concerned.

Yep.

>                         BUT THOSE ARE NOT THE ISSUES HERE.  Maybe Hans will
> be a little more sociable towards you when you guys start being a little
> more sociable towards him,

Sorry, the community has been sometimes abrasive, but on the whole helpful
and polite to newcomers. In this case they have been accused of everything,
including dishonesty... and this has been going on for the 4th round right
now.

>                            or maybe he's just a jerk and will never
change,

Looks that way. And /again/ there are people who tell nicely what would
have to happen to fix ReiserFS 4 to get it into shape.

> I don't know, and frankly I don't care, but R4 deserves its shot anyway
> based just on its potential alone.

And who will take over when the authors make for the woodwork, yet again?

>                                     Its reached the point where it can only
> get better with more *exposure*, and as I said in my response to Christoph,
> -mm is not the place to get exposure from a wider audience, due to its
> instability, even Andrew has said his -mm tree isn't meant to be a "stable"
> kernel series.

And what stops you from creating -rfs4 just for checking? If it /really/ is
so great, word will go round and people /will/ check it out.

> In the meantime, if a fork does happen, I'm going with the one that gives
> good ideas their chance at the mainstream no matter who the author is.  If
> you guys really want to kill the Linux success story, just keep right on
> putting your ego and personal feelings in front of what's good for the
> users and good for the success of Linux outside your elite club.

Addressed at the ReiserFS crowd? Sounds about right...

>                                                                   And
> before you tell yourself that the users don't matter, you'd better ask
> around among all the *other* developers here why *they* are working on
> Linux now, and not a BSD, or another fork of Linux.

A /very/ good question...

>                                                      Hint: many are
> employed by companies whose customer's are ... Linux *USERS*.  Linux's
> initial success was not pre-ordained or guaranteed, it was accomplished
> because a core group of people started WORKING TOGETHER with a common
> vision, if you now decide to forget what got you to this point, I
> GUARANTEE YOU that the success of your version of Linux will not
> continue.

And again, historically "Work towards /my/ vision", "Linux is doomed if you
don't do as I say", etc arguments go nowhere. Rightly so, they are usually
from people who don't have a clue. If you /really/ can do it /that/ much
better than Linus & Co, go ahead and show us.
-- 
Dr. Horst H. von Brand                   User #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica                     Fono: +56 32 654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria              +56 32 654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile                Fax:  +56 32 797513